Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?

[face2face]

@quietthinker The Greek word apokatástasis appears only once in the Bible, in Acts 3:21.

Do you know the verse? Maybe this is one of the verse's you cling to tightly?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Have you heard my answer F2F? ....it would answer your question

Do you know the definition of Apocatastasis? I can put it up if you dont!

 

[face2face]

Apocatastasis is taken from the Greek name (ἀποκατάστασις) for the doctrine that ultimately all free moral creatures—angels, men, and devils—will share in the grace of salvation.

Do you believe angels require saving?
Do you believe all free moral creatures will be saved regardless of their rejection into the Kingdom of God?
Do you believe all devils will be saved?

@quietthinker, I just wanted to see if you are a pure UR, or something else...Origen dabbled in UR and took on aspects of this false teaching until he came to his senses.

F2F

 

[face2face]

If @quietthinker & @St. SteVen believe in a pure form of Apocatastasis and lets for the moment assume you both do and are correct in believing so, why is the preaching of good tidings intertwined with such an earnest and threatening warning?

If the warning carries no consequence, why warn?

I mean, it matters not for the moment whether a person believes in eternal torment or the permanence of the grave, both are consequence's and while one is heresy, the latter is the reality for those who heed not the Gospel. So, why would the Apostles warn of a consequence when you both beleive there is none.

Was their preaching in vain? Why preach at all if even the ungodly are saved?

F2F

 

[Patrick1966]

Heretics are NOT "one" with Jesus Christ!

This is modernistic HERESY

Yes. The correct theology is thar Jesus tortures people FOREVER!

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker @St. SteVen

Lets assume your answer is inadequate for the moment and not so forthcoming...which seems to be Stevens style!

If the warnings are real and severe, then the Power of the Gospel is dependent on man’s own decision? Otherwise you would be removing man's free will and have a God who forces all beings into eternity.

No doubt you can see the issue clear enough!

You have taken a God, who is not willing that any should perish (cease to exist) and made Him into a God who would force's salvation even on the unwilling.

Origen understood the doctrine of apocatastasis makes human decision of little, to now value , he saw the warnings of being found without Christ, as being excruciating in its finality, he could not see a God who could triumphed with His grace, so carelessly.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Now assuming you both @quietthinker @St. SteVen are now lost for words, what if we extend this idea of God forcing the unwilling into eternity as you both believe.

What is God's reaction to unbelief?
Is "unbelief" irrelevant to your core belief's?
Does this mean when Scripture positions unbelief with the utmost seriousness, do you see an empty threat?

What you are left with is a heresy that is irreconcilable with the true gospel.

A rather sad place you both find yourselves in really.

F2F

 

[face2face]

For all others in this thread.

I believe the evangelical believer who sees God's threats as being God eternally torturing his own immortal soul is just offensive and as equally heretical as the doctrine of Apocatastasis.

Hebrews 2:3 how will we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was first communicated through the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard him,

What is meant by escape?
Escape what?

We now move well beyond the Apocatastasis believer as they see this as an empty threat.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Therefore, because we know the fear of the Lord, we try to persuade people, but we are well known to God, and I hope we are well known to your consciences too

What is meant by knowing the fear of the Lord?
And why try to persuade people of the Gospel, if as you believe, all are saved already?

Hebrews 2:3 is a qualified threat, because it speaks to the other side of the invitation, which is either the abundant riches offered in Christ or death. Failure to know the fear of the Lord and to neglect such a great salvation results in remaining in the grave forever. Now some will desire this having lived a full and free life and wanting to take no part in the future Kingdom. This life, though short is still a gift from God as all things are from Him, but to believe He will force humans into the Kingdom is a travesty of justice!

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Now assuming you both @quietthinker @St. SteVen are now lost for words, what if we extend this idea of God forcing the unwilling into eternity as you both believe.

What is God's reaction to unbelief?
Is "unbelief" irrelevant to your core belief's?
Does this mean when Scripture positions unbelief with the utmost seriousness, do you see an empty threat?

What you are left with is a heresy that is irreconcilable with the true gospel.

A rather sad place you both find yourselves in really.

F2F

F2F...respectively, you are rattling on about a conversation in your own head!

 

[face2face]

F2F...respectively, you are rattling on about a conversation in your own head!

Maybe you don't know what you believe - that's possible!
The questions are all there - try and answer the best you are able or move one.
F2F

 

[face2face]

F2F...respectively, you are rattling on about a conversation in your own head!

This is an interesting observation! When questions are given @quietthinker & @St. SteVen which fall outside their paradigm, I have noticed their resistance to answer or engage.

It is true, that faith knows that self-evidence can have no place in life and yet how often do we see one's own thoughts become the evidence for faith.

It was asked of the Lord “Lord, will those who are saved be few?” Jesus’ answer “Strive to enter by the narrow door” (Luke 13:23)

Would you and your thoughts make the entrance wider?

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Maybe you don't know what you believe - that's possible!
The questions are all there - try and answer the best you are able or move one.
F2F

I'm wondering if you find a need to control the narrative?

 

[face2face]

I'm wondering if you find a need to control the narrative?

Your diversions are noted. Are the questions asked in all my posts on topic?
You do realize this is the OP, right? Or, do you think we are speaking to another narrative?

"Does Christian Universalism sidestep the justice of God?"​

 

[face2face]

I'm wondering if you find a need to control the narrative?

Where is SteVen? It's his OP and narrative! You both are the promoters of apocatastasis and yet when someone engages and challenges your beliefs you look for the exit door?
It's just weak, quiet.
weak!
F2F

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

And dont let man decive you.

sadly it looks like you have already been deceived!

 

[MatthewG]

sadly it looks like you have already been deceived!

You understand that peoples concern doesnt bother me on spiritual matters. God would let me know personally. Maybe thats why people ask and wonder or ignore things that are written in the bible.

While people may believe or think they have authority in spiritual matters the truth is they dont, youre not in a church. Nor if you were in a church i wouldnt deem you as the highwr authority of spiritual manners.

While you may be concerned; in the end people shouldnt trust you or look to you as their spiritual guide. Not even myself.

It must come from God who can make a person stand or a person fall.

I dont care about people judgements or their “concern”, all the while people will gossip to others behind private messages or private conversations online or offline.

Some may say you should. Well I havent came at you with any thing but whats been noted already.

Youre gonna die, so am I.

Best be ready and clothed in Christ.

And love even those you disagree with; you may just find them in the kingdom with you to your surprise.

“Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it’s all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Who are you to condemn someone else’s servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord’s help, they will stand and receive his approval.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Romans 14:1-4 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it’s all right to eat anything. But another believer | New Living Translation (NLT) | Do

Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it’s all right to eat anything. But another believer

bible.com

 

[quietthinker]

Where is SteVen? It's his OP and narrative! You both are the promoters of apocatastasis and yet when someone engages and challenges your beliefs you look for the exit door?
It's just weak, quiet.
weak!
F2F

It's weak in your eyes because I wont engage your hoop jumping game. You introduce a certain factor about 20 posts ago and because I wont play by your rules you call it an 'exit door' and 'weak'
What this says in reality is that you want to control the narrative. I have seen you play like this before. Unless you deem yourself in control you tell me to move on.

It appears to me you have the idea that you are some sort of an authority who feels others need to capitulate.

 

[ByGraceThroughFaith]

You understand that peoples concern doesnt bother me on spiritual matters. God would let me know personally. Maybe thats why people ask and wonder or ignore things that are written in the bible.

While people may believe or think they have authority in spiritual matters the truth is they dont, youre not in a church. Nor if you were in a church i wouldnt deem you as the highwr authority of spiritual manners.

While you may be concerned; in the end people shouldnt trust you or look to you as their spiritual guide. Not even myself.

It must come from God who can make a person stand or a person fall.

I dont care about people judgements or their “concern”, all the while people will gossip to others behind private messages or private conversations online or offline.

Some may say you should. Well I havent came at you with any thing but whats been noted already.

Youre gonna die, so am I.

Best be ready and clothed in Christ.

And love even those you disagree with; you may just find them in the kingdom with you to your surprise.

“Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it’s all right to eat anything. But another believer with a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. Those who feel free to eat anything must not look down on those who don’t. And those who don’t eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. Who are you to condemn someone else’s servants? Their own master will judge whether they stand or fall. And with the Lord’s help, they will stand and receive his approval.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭1‬-‭4‬ ‭NLT‬‬

Romans 14:1-4 Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it’s all right to eat anything. But another believer | New Living Translation (NLT) | Do

Accept other believers who are weak in faith, and don’t argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. For instance, one person believes it’s all right to eat anything. But another believer

bible.com

God has already spoken to us through His Infallible Word, the Holy Bible

Your personal beliefs are against what is very clearly Taught in the Holy Bible

 

[face2face]

It's weak in your eyes because I wont engage your hoop jumping game.

No, its just weak - call it as I see it.

You introduce a certain factor about 20 posts ago and because I wont play by your rules you call it an 'exit door' and 'weak'

You sound your heresy all over the forum and then when the questions become "to difficult" to answer you go with your avoidance tactics.

What this says in reality is that you want to control the narrative. I have seen you play like this before. Unless you deem yourself in control you tell me to move on.

The narrative as you put it is here...in this OP.

It appears to me you have the idea that you are some sort of an authority who feels others need to capitulate.

You have already capitulated without putting up a defense lol.

You both are very comical, without even meaning to be funny - SteVen runs as soon as he feels his foundation eroding from under him and all you can do is say "you have control issues", like, okay Quiet - great insight, but hey, what about the 10 posts which unravel your apocatastasis?

What I love about this debate is apocatastasis has been shown to be a fabrication in your minds - you think you have found some deeper gnosis, but no!

F2F

 

[MatthewG]

God has already spoken to us through His Infallible Word, the Holy Bible

Your personal beliefs are against what is very clearly Taught in the Holy Bible

Cool. I love you, and your personal opinion. May God be with you.