Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

[Robert Gwin]

Sorry. No offense, I love you in Jesus, but you are not qualified to speak in my threads on any biblical topic because you are a part of the JW cult. People here need to know that true faithful followers of Jesus will not accept what you and or your cult says.

To our other readers here, they should know the false ways of your religion (of which they can check out here):

Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings)

We know most will not accept God's people BH, we don't even expect it. It is like a brother said in a talk, if all of Jesus' disciples were able to put the time in to reach everyone, and only one accepted the good news, would it be worth it? Everlasting life cannot be purchased by any price sir, as it is priceless. So no matter what sacrifice we give, if just one person can come to life, it was worth it.

The word actually divides as you have seen BH, Jesus told us that when he sent us out, sometimes making enemies of those of our own household Mat 10:34-36, so your post to me comes as no surprise, however it does hurt us to see someone reject God because of us. Jehovah's witnesses feel the way He does sir, that is why we do what we do, as like Him, we do not want to see anyone destroyed, rather we hope they will repent and stand with Him as well. 2 Pet 3:9 The end is drawing close, correct?

Perhaps something Elijah once said might apply here sir, among God's people some were following baal, so he said to them at 1 Kings 18:21: How long will you be limping between tow different opinions? If Jehovah is the true God, follow Him; but if baal is, follow him!

Truthfully that applies, so let me say to you sir, if Jehovah is the true God, whom should you follow? Mat 4:10

 

[Daydreamer]

@Daydreamer

Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law (even before the cross):
(Which means He was not teaching primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
(Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).

With respect, that doesn't change what I have been stressing to you at all does it

 

[atpollard]

This grace is not a license for immorality of us thinking we can willfully sin.

Since NOBODY makes this claim except as a 'strawman' it is a moot point to the discussion of whether God NEEDS YOUR "help or permission" to save you [Synergysm: mother of salvation by faith and works] or God saves "all by Himself" [Monergism: mother of salvation by faith alone ... and even faith is a gift from God].

Nobody actually advocates: "You are saved ... now go an sin all you want."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As you agree nine out of the ten commandments are still valid for today, I hope, in line with what Paul plainly wrote, you accept righteousness of obeying the law hinges on obeying the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break. It cannot be trivialised, according to what Paul plainly wrote

You fail to understand the underlying motivation of why Paul was speaking negatively of the Law and works in many of his letters when he spoke of these things.

Paul was fighting against a heresy of which I call: "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (Instead of being saved initially by God’s grace through faith —- which is a process of salvation without works because we are saved by His mercy and the regeneration of the Holy Ghost when we are first saved). Circumcision Salvationism was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (Please read really slowly: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

In Romans 3:1, Paul asks, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

In Romans 2:25-29, Paul says,

“For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

Side Note:

Oh, and if you actually read Acts 15 involving the Jerusalem council: You will notice that the council concluded that the Gentiles did not have to keep the Law of Moses and to be circumcised. However, that did not mean that the council was not recommending them to keep certain aspects of it (like: “That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well - Acts of the Apostles 15:29).

 

[atpollard]

Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of New Testament commands on day one of our service to be saved (after we are saved by God’s grace)?

No.
... but He empowers us to want to start trying to and He enables us to Love God and Love each other (a good start).

Acts of the Apostles 2:37-42 [NASB20]

Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what are we to do?" Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on urging them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
​

... see, it didn't take long to change the heart and start changing the actions.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

With respect, that doesn't change what I have been stressing to you at all does it

Yes, it does because it shows that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12). I make this point even further in my previous post involving the motivation behind WHY Paul spoke negatively of the Law or works (When he used those words generically). Paul never spoke against the Laws of Christ but he was speaking against the 613 Laws of Moses. If you are a keeper of the Old Law, you have to keep them all. The righteous aspect or part of the Old that we fulfill by walking after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). For if we love our neighbor, we fulfill all of the moral law like do not covet, do not steal, do not murder. This is the righteousness of the Law in Romans 8:4.

Again, Romans 8:13 (NIV) says:
“For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”

In other words, Romans 8:13, says if you live after the flesh (i.e. flesh = Trying to be under the 613 laws of Moses (as a whole) and or trying to be circumcised to be saved, and or trying to justify sin) you will die (die spiritually), but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No.
... but He empowers us to want to start trying to and He enables us to Love God and Love each other (a good start).

Acts of the Apostles 2:37-42 [NASB20]

Now when they heard [this,] they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what are we to do?" Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far away, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on urging them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
​

... see, it didn't take long to change the heart and start changing the actions.

Yes, God gives a new heart with new desires, and God does empower us. No doubt about it. But that does not mean we cannot fall.

Fall Away List of Verses:

If we are never in jeopardy when we sin, then the Bible would not teach that we can fall away from the faith; But it does teach that we can fall away.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as OSAS folk, or Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists say.

 

[Daydreamer]

You fail to understand the underlying motivation of why Paul was speaking negatively of the Law and works in many of his letters when he spoke of these things.

Paul was fighting against a heresy of which I call: "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be initially saved (Instead of being saved initially by God’s grace through faith —- which is a process of salvation without works because we are saved by His mercy and the regeneration of the Holy Ghost when we are first saved). Circumcision Salvationism was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (Please read really slowly: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

In Romans 3:1, Paul asks, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

In Romans 2:25-29, Paul says,

“For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

Side Note:

Oh, and if you actually read Acts 15 involving the Jerusalem council: You will notice that the council concluded that the Gentiles did not have to keep the Law of Moses and to be circumcised. However, that did not mean that the council was not recommending them to keep certain aspects of it (like: “That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well - Acts of the Apostles 15:29).

Do you believe a christian is righteous before God by obeying applicable law under the new covenant? Do you believe Thou shalt not covet is part of what is now applicable law?

 

[Daydreamer]

Yes, it does because it shows that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12). I make this point even further in my previous post involving the motivation behind WHY Paul spoke negatively of the Law or works (When he used those words generically). Paul never spoke against the Laws of Christ but he was speaking against the 613 Laws of Moses. If you are a keeper of the Old Law, you have to keep them all. The righteous aspect or part of the Old that we fulfill by walking after the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). For if we love our neighbor, we fulfill all of the moral law like do not covet, do not steal, do not murder. This is the righteousness of the Law in Romans 8:4.

Again, Romans 8:13 (NIV) says:
“For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.”

In other words, Romans 8:13, says if you live after the flesh (i.e. flesh = Trying to be under the 613 laws of Moses (as a whole) and or trying to be circumcised to be saved, and or trying to justify sin) you will die (die spiritually), but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally).

Do you believe a christian is righteous before God by obeying applicable law under the new covenant? Do you believe Thou shalt not covet is part of what is now applicable law?

 

[atpollard]

Fall Away List of Verses:

You should post the "Cannot Be Eternally Lost Verses" as well.
That you can post a list of "Fall Away" verses indicates that you must surely know the verses of which I speak.
Honest discussion requires balance in acknowledging those that hold opposing views.

Jude 1:24-25 [ESV]

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

(So, is God able to keep you from stumbling and present you blameless before the presence of his glory ... or was Jude wrong?)​

 

[atpollard]

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as OSAS folk, or Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists say.

What do these people say?
Can you quote them or their literature?

I can quote from the Heidelberg Catechism, the Westminster Confession and the London Confession as "Reformed" Theology sources that affirm "TULIP" (which believes in "P" ... Salvation cannot be lost) and do not advocate a "reprobate Christian" as a legitimate possibility. So I welcome hearing what these "OSAS folk" say and put in writing. I have never even heard the term "Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists" before.

Just for the record, I am a Particular Baptist and believe in Eternal Security because SALVATION is of God from first to last (Ephesians 2:1-10) and He who began a good work will perfect it (Philippians 1:6) ... so I see a different purpose for those "Fall Away Verse List" scriptures than you do. We can discuss it some other time.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

What do these people say?
Can you quote them or their literature?

I can quote from the Heidelberg Catechism, the Westminster Confession and the London Confession as "Reformed" Theology sources that affirm "TULIP" (which believes in "P" ... Salvation cannot be lost) and do not advocate a "reprobate Christian" as a legitimate possibility. So I welcome hearing what these "OSAS folk" say and put in writing. I have never even heard the term "Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists" before.

Just for the record, I am a Particular Baptist and believe in Eternal Security because SALVATION is of God from first to last (Ephesians 2:1-10) and He who began a good work will perfect it (Philippians 1:6) ... so I see a different purpose for those "Fall Away Verse List" scriptures than you do. We can discuss it some other time.

A Particular Baptist is another way of saying a Calvinist !
Holding to T. U. L. I. P.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Since NOBODY makes this claim except as a 'strawman' it is a moot point to the discussion of whether God NEEDS YOUR "help or permission" to save you [Synergysm: mother of salvation by faith and works] or God saves "all by Himself" [Monergism: mother of salvation by faith alone ... and even faith is a gift from God].

Nobody actually advocates: "You are saved ... now go an sin all you want."

Actually, that’s not true.

I have been at these kinds of discussion for 11 years approximately and I listen carefully to what many people say in the Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism camp. I have talked with people in person and online. I have done extensive research into their stated beliefs and I have traced the origins of this dark doctrine. There are a three major different categories of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationists.

#1. Hyper Grace.
(Yes, you can Google it and it is a real recognized term amongst Christians).
Hyper Grace = Those believers who believe they can practice sin and still be saved and no amount of sin will keep them from their Savior all because they have a belief alone in Jesus for salvation or in their unbiblical of saying that all you have to do is believe in the finished work of the cross (Which denies the resurrection). It’s also called “Easy Believism.” They can be either be Calvinist (Monergism), or Non-Calvinists (Arminians) (Note: Yes, I can provide proof that some Calvinists hold to Hyper Grace; Just be patient and I will show you this in a little bit). They are for Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved.

#2. Partial Hyper Grace (Which is my invented term based on Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationist’s double speaking in saying they are for holy living and they are in support of “not practicing sin” (So as to show the mark of a true believer), and yet they contradict that moral standard by making other kinds of statements at another time by saying that they can sin and still be saved on a smaller level or sinning for a season). Non-Calvinists and Calvinists hold to this viewpoint. Gotquestions (a 4 point Calvinist website) is a perfect example of this double minded nonsense. In one article by them, they say they have serious doubts about a believer being saved if they are not progressively living more holy. Yet, they contradict this moral standard in the same article by also say that a backslidden believer is still saved (i.e. that means that the prodigal son who was living it up with prostitutes was still saved in Luke 15). You can check out that article here. This is just deceptive. A person can just deceive themselves that they go prodigal their whole life and then get their heart with the Lord toward the end of their life and think they are saved. Partial Hyper Grace Christians have said that a believer who commits suicide is still saved. Partial Hyper Grace Christians believe that if a Christian who generally lived a holy later looks upon a woman in lust and they got hit by a bus and died… they would be saved (Which ignores 1 John 1:9, Proverbs 28:13). They are for Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved.

#3. Free Will Baptists.
Free Will Baptists reject Eternal Security or Once Saved Always Saved. They believe the only way you can fall away is by no longer believing in the Bible or God and or in rejecting Jesus as your Savior after you have believed. However, just like the other two camps of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism, they believe you can sin and still be saved on some level.

You mention Monergism (Which is Calvinism). This is basically determinism in disguise. Unconditional Election is basically saying God elects based on no conditions whatsoever within the individual. Hence, why it is called Unconditional Election. This means God force saves some people and not others. The problem with this view is if God normally saves by some kind of forced regeneration or salvation, why does He not save them all? By default, God would be the blame for not saving people when He could (Thereby not making Him a loving God who actually cares). That would be like a coast guard saving everyone within a group you were with that was lost at sea, but the coast guard randomly chose to not save you and your family for no good reason. In such a scenario, you would think the coast guard was not being fair. While there are tons of verse that refute Calvinism: 2 Thessalonians 2:10 is really the only verse you need to refute Calvinism. It is basically saying that the reason why those who are perishing is because they are not receiving the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. This does not make sense in Calvinism and many Calvinists I have shared this verse with simply either ignore this verse or they attempt to change it somehow because they don’t like what it says plainly. I honestly don’t know how Will Kinney (a KJB Onlyist like myself) twists this verse. Will Kinney is a Calvinist.

There is also High Calvinism (Which is the belief that one does not even have to preach the gospel; God will just lead them to be saved).

Side Note:

I hold to Temporal Belief Alone Salvationism in that one is saved by a belief alone only in their Initial Salvation when they first are saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus Christ (Which is a process of salvation without works). Yes, I know. Calvinists have claimed that for us to believe in Jesus is also a work, but it is not.

 

[atpollard]

A Particular Baptist is another way of saying a Calvinist !
Holding to T. U. L. I. P.

Not to Presbyterian (or any of the other Denominations that sprang from the Reformed branch of Church History and its Covenant Theology).

Technically, there is no such thing as a "Calvinist". John Calvin never founded a denomination or a school of theology. He had no "followers". He just wrote a lot of theological books during the Reformation. It was the Lutheran State Church that first branded non-Lutheran reformers (the so-called "second wave") as "Calvinists" as an insult indicating they were following the teaching of a man rather than the Bible.

[I guess the irony was lost on the Lutherans.]

T.U.L.I.P. as an acronym didn't appear until the 20th Century.

I personally prefer Particular Baptist (as distinct from General Baptist) because it proclaims that I am a Baptist (affirming the Baptist distinctives like Baptism of Believers, Independent Churches answerable to Christ rather than men, Separation of Church and State and Individual Soul Liberty) and within the umbrella of being a Baptist, I believe that Christ died for a Particular People (His Sheep), thus everyone that Christ died for is in fact saved [as distinct from General Baptists who believe that God died to grant all men a chance at salvation but men are responsible to choose to believe or not to believe.]

Thus the majority of Reformed ('Calvinists' as you would call them) would baptize babies and embrace the bible as a series of Covenants, Particular Baptists only agree with them on the Monergism of soteriology (God does the saving and asks permission from no one) while disagreing on many other Biblical interpretations.

Now stop baptizing those babies until they obey the command to repent! [Just kidding.]

 

[atpollard]

You mention Monergism (Which is Calvinism). This is basically determinism in disguise. Unconditional Election is basically saying God elects based on no conditions whatsoever within the individual. Hence, why it is called Unconditional Election. This means God force saves some people and not others. The problem with this view is if God normally saves by some kind of forced regeneration or salvation, why does He not save them all? By default, God would be the blame for not saving people when He could (Thereby not making Him a loving God who actually cares).

Thank you for calling this to our attention ... no theologian in 2000 years (Beginning with Paul in the Book of Romans) has ever considered this and written about it!

Too bad the BIBLE (you remember that book) says that "God elects based on no conditions whatsoever within the individual". So your complaint is "Why is God unfair?" and should be addressed to God who wrote the Bible rather than those that just told you what it said.

• Fortunately Romans 9 answered your complaint.
  
• Unfortunately, you have likely rejected what Paul said and rationalized why it means the opposite of what it says ... the Potter has no such right and OWES SALVATION to the evil clay!

 

[atpollard]

i.e. that means that the prodigal son who was living it up with prostitutes was still saved in Luke 15

Quick and simple question ... In the story of the Prodigal Son, when (exactly) does scripture state that he stopped being his son and when (exactly) did he become a member of the family again?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's not I that teaches this, but the Bible itself.

Demonstration:

In Luke 15, we learn in the parable of the prodigal son that when the prodigal son came home and sought forgiveness with his father from living it up with prostitutes, his father said he was “dead” and he is “alive AGAIN.” Obviously the prodigal son did not die physically, so this must be speaking in spiritual terms. The prodigal son was dead spiritually while he was living it up with prostitutes and he became alive again spiritually when he came back home to his father seeking forgiveness with Him. In fact, this same truth is taught in James 5:19-20. So you would have to change that passage, too (in order to make your sin and still be saved type belief work).

So you take a parable to make a doctrine of it!

well Hebrews says it is impossible to restore one to repentance! Looks like you are checkmated! Maybe you should learn about how euphemisms and idioms are used in language- even in the "Bible.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, you need to believe in the blood for salvation (Romans 3:25), but you also have to believe 1 John 1:7, too.

1 John 1:7 says if you walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

What is walking in the light?

1 John 2:9-11 by the indirect wording lets us know that loving your brother = walking in the light.

So you have to love your brother in order for the blood of Jesus to continue to cleanse you from all sin.

If you decide to not walk in the light, you are no longer saved.

The word IF is conditional.

Teh word if has three conditions.
1. If and you do --better rendered "since"
2. If and you don't
3 If and may be you will or maybe you won't.

I know which condition JOhn wrote- but I will let you study and learn.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So according to your philosophy believers can get born again- then have a bad day and get unborn again. Teh get born again -again- have a bad day then get unborn again -again. then get born again-again-again, have a bad day and get unborn again-again-again. etcv.etc.etc AD nauseum.

Yep bible highlighter thinks you can get saved and lost infinite number of times I guess. they use a totally false example from Scripture.

So Jesus' blood i senough, then not enough, then enough, then not enough. And that His blood doesn't cover all sins.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It's called "type 2 works salvation" and it's s false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Yeah sadly. It is one of Satans greatest deceptions against believers. Get them focused on Jesus and on their works so they become useless for the kingdom and are prisoners of war in the great spiritual battle.