Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of NT commands on day one of our service to be saved?

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Bible Highlighter

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Since NOBODY makes this claim except as a 'strawman' it is a moot point to the discussion of whether God NEEDS YOUR "help or permission" to save you [Synergysm: mother of salvation by faith and works] or God saves "all by Himself" [Monergism: mother of salvation by faith alone ... and even faith is a gift from God].

Nobody actually advocates: "You are saved ... now go an sin all you want."

One Christian guy admitted with me at my old work place that he could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and he would be saved by a belief alone in Jesus as his Savior (as he did so). I have heard similar things by other Christians online. In fact, there is one church called the Tetelestai Church that teaches you can commit gross amounts of sin and be saved. George Sodini believed his Pastor Rick Knapp in that he could commit mass murder and that is exactly what he did (along with killing himself). George wrote in his own suicide letter that he was saved not of works but by a belief alone in Jesus.

George Sodini said,

“But this guy [Rick Knapp] teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. (George Sodini's own web site under Dec. 31, 2008 and Tetelestai Church).”

Tetelestai Church | Pastor Knapp

If you look at the Wayback Machine, there is no internet captures of the Tetelestai website for 2008. Most likely this means they were trying to cover up what had happened.

To learn more about George Sodini, click here:

O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

Then there are the Christians I have talked with in this thread I created at CF.

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

The responses by them is that they can set out to sin and still be saved. Just read their responses and this is obvious many of them do this.

In another thread at CF, I asked a poster called FreeGrace2 the following question:

“This means that a person can continue to murder, rape, hate, fornicate, do drugs, and still be saved as long as they believe in Jesus, right? No?” Quote by: Me.​

Poster named FreeGrace2 replied:

“Yep. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. Why do you think Christ died for sins, if sins will keep one out of heaven? How does that make any sense? It doesn't. Just because you're offended by the grace of God doesn't mean His grace is cancelled by your offendedness.” Quote by: FreeGrace2 (at ChristianForums.com).​

I have ran into many who believed this way at TheologyOnline back in the day. But they removed a lot of people’s old content for some reason (Possibly a data issue involving cost or something).

Anyways, there are even Christians on this forum who say that when they sin, God does not see their sin. This gives them a license to sin or to not really worry about sin.

I will mention to you John MacArthur in one of my future posts to you.
 
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theefaith

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Does God expect us to obey the hundreds of New Testament commands on day one of our service to be saved (after we are saved by God’s grace)?

The charge has been claimed by Belief Alone Salvationists that you must obey all of the New Testament commands (or that you must reach a state of Sinless Perfection whereby you can never sin again) in order for salvation by obedience to be valid after you are saved by God’s grace. This is why many believe that all you have to do is just believe in Jesus for salvation or the finished work of the cross and you are good to enter the Kingdom.

I believe the Bible teaches that Sanctification is a process of living holy by the Spirit. It’s why Romans 8:13 says but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body by the Spirit you will live (i.e. live eternally). 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. These verses would not make any sense if we were automatically perfectly obeying all of the Lord’s commands in the New Testament on day one and we could never slip up on rare occasion and break God’s commands ever again. Granted, I am not against a new believer being able to do that. I would be for the brethren doing that since day one if we had strong Christian leaders training new converts to obey in all things right away. But that’s not always the reality for everyone. The thief on the cross was saved without works. But for those who live out their faith: I believe God gives us grace and time to learn His Word and to study it so as to know His will and to learn how to obey God.

Abraham did not instantly grab a knife and try to kill Isaac the moment he heard the command from God. There was time that took place between Abraham hearing God’s command and in putting it forth into action at the right moment in time. Was Abraham not saved because he did not instantly grab a knife and seek to kill Isaac? No. God gave Abraham time. What mattered was Abraham’s willingness to obey and seeking to make that a reality in the proper way. In fact, Abraham did not even fulfill that command by God. Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac and yet God was telling him to do that. God was testing Abraham’s loyalty. So it’s a willingness of our heart to obey God (even when things may not even be possible to obey Him in the moment). For example: We are told to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost teaching them all things that Christ commanded. Can you do that on day one after you are saved? What if you are in the mountains and there is nobody but you and the other person who led you to Jesus? Again, can you know of all of what Christ commands on day one? I imagine in some circumstances you could (if you had the right teachers). But is one not saved while they are still learning of those commands and they are not obeying them yet? This is why I believe there is grace. This grace is not a license for immorality of us thinking we can willfully sin. No, no. Most certainly not. We must seek to obey God in everything. Why? Because it is a part of our faith. It is our willingness to obey that I believe God is looking at before we can learn of that command and put into action. I say this because how many of you here are obeying the great commission in baptizing others in the name of Jesus (i.e. the name (singular) that represents the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit)? That’s a command by Jesus. Are you doing it? Are you not saved because you have not done so yet? I don’t believe so. I believe God gives us grace and time to do those things He desires of us. We should pray and ask God for help to obey Him in all things.

This also does not mean that we do not have to obey God as a part of God’s plan of salvation, either. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (Which is a call of the gospel). The gospel is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. But the CALL of the gospel is our Sanctification (living holy by the Spirit and putting away sin and learning to know how to obey God), and continuing to believe the doctrines and or truths in the Bible.

Note: I believe that if a Christian sins (like say looking upon a woman in lust, or not forgiving someone), they must confess and forsake that sin. Believers need to strive to seek to obey all of God’s commands. This is a part of living by faith. If we are not seeking to obey God as a part of the Kingdom, we are simply seeking to be our own lords and masters. God calls us to obedience and to pick up our cross and to deny ourselves. We have to count the cost and we have to be willing to give up all for the Lord Jesus. Again, this takes time for many of us to learn. There are many tests of our faith along the way. Our faith is not always a walk in the park. Jesus said, strive to enter the straight gate (Luke 13:24). So yes. We should be striving to obey the commands that come from the Lord Jesus and His followers in the New Testament. But I believe God gives us grace to get there. For grace gives us the ability to do the work (1 Corinthians 15:10).

No one is saved until the end of our life!
 

Daydreamer

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One Christian guy admitted with me at my old work place that he could mow down a crowd of people with a sub machine gun and he would be saved by a belief alone in Jesus as his Savior (as he did so). I have heard similar things by other Christians online. In fact, there is one church called the Tetelestai Church that teaches you can commit gross amounts of sin and be saved. George Sodini believed his Pastor Rick Knapp in that he could commit mass murder and that is exactly what he did (along with killing himself). George wrote in his own suicide letter that he was saved not of works but by a belief alone in Jesus.

George Sodini said,

“But this guy [Rick Knapp] teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven. (George Sodini's own web site under Dec. 31, 2008 and Tetelestai Church).”

Tetelestai Church | Pastor Knapp

If you look at the Wayback Machine, there is no internet captures of the Tetelestai website for 2008. Most likely this means they were trying to cover up what had happened.

To learn more about George Sodini, click here:

O.S.A.S. – THE WATCHMAN'S CRY

Then there are the Christians I have talked with in this thread I created at CF.

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

The responses by them is that they can set out to sin and still be saved. Just read their responses and this is obvious many of them do this.

In another thread at CF, I asked a poster called FreeGrace2 the following question:

“This means that a person can continue to murder, rape, hate, fornicate, do drugs, and still be saved as long as they believe in Jesus, right? No?” Quote by: Me.​

Poster named FreeGrace2 replied:

“Yep. Why? Because Christ died for ALL sins. Why do you think Christ died for sins, if sins will keep one out of heaven? How does that make any sense? It doesn't. Just because you're offended by the grace of God doesn't mean His grace is cancelled by your offendedness.” Quote by: FreeGrace2 (at ChristianForums.com).​

I have ran into many who believed this way at TheologyOnline back in the day. But they removed a lot of people’s old content for some reason (Possibly a data issue involving cost or something).

Anyways, there are even Christians on this forum who say that when they sin, God does not see their sin. This gives them a license to sin or to not really worry about sin.

I will mention to you John MacArthur in my next thread to you.
I don't think you want to answer the questions do you:
Do you believe a christian is righteous before God by obeying applicable law under the new covenant? Do you believe Thou shalt not covet is part of what is now applicable law?

I know no one ever changes their minds on these kind of websites, but all the same, would it really hurt you that much to reconsider your position on which law Paul describes as ''the letter that kills''
 

Bible Highlighter

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I don't think you want to answer the questions do you:
Do you believe a christian is righteous before God by obeying applicable law under the new covenant? Do you believe Thou shalt not covet is part of what is now applicable law?

I know no one ever changes their minds on these kind of websites, but all the same, would it really hurt you that much to reconsider your position on which law Paul describes as ''the letter that kills''

The letter that kills is the Torah and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. The followers of Jesus would not write down any letter that kills from Jesus and or by their own writings if such were the case. Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

You asked:

Q: Do you believe a christian is righteous before God by obeying applicable law under the new covenant? Do you believe Thou shalt not covet is part of what is now applicable law?​

My reply:

A: Christians are righteous by faith. Romans 3:22 (CEB) says, “God’s righteousness comes through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who have faith in him. There’s no distinction.” While faith starts off as a belief alone in Jesus for salvation (John 1:12), or the gospel message (i.e. a belief alone) (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), faith does not remain as a belief alone (if faith is lived out). Faith also includes us doing what God tells us to do. By faith Noah prepared an ark to the saving of his household (Hebrews 11:7). Romans 5:1 says Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God. Romans 5:2 says we have access to his grace through faith. Faith. Not just believing kind of faith but with a faith like that of Noah. To trust in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus, but it is believing everything He taught said and did. Jesus said that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). John 8:51 says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” Besides, Scripture also says, “...he that doeth righteousness is righteous,..” (1 John 3:7). We see Paul warn us by saying: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). So according to the above passage, those who are covetous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Meaning, they will not be saved if they are covetous.​
 
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Daydreamer

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The letter that kills is the Torah and not the commands that come from Jesus and His followers. The followers of Jesus would not write down any letter that kills from Jesus and or by their own writings if such were the case. Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

You asked:

Q: Do you believe a christian is righteous before God by obeying applicable law under the new covenant? Do you believe Thou shalt not covet is part of what is now applicable law?​

My reply:

A: Christians are righteous by faith. Romans 3:22 (CEB) says, “God’s righteousness comes through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who have faith in him. There’s no distinction.” While faith starts off as a belief alone in Jesus for salvation (John 1:12), or the gospel message (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), it does not remain that way. Faith also includes us doing what God tells us to do. By faith Noah prepared an ark to the saving of his household (Hebrews 11:7). Romans 5:1 says Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God. Romans 5:2 says we have access to his grace through faith. Faith. Not just believing kind of faith but with a faith like that of Noah. To trust in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus, but it is believing everything He taught said and did. Jesus said that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27). John 8:51 says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” Besides, Scripture also says, “...he that doeth righteousness is righteous,..” (1 John 3:7). We see Paul warn us by saying: “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). So according to the above passage, those who are covetous will not inherit the kingdom of God. Meaning, they will not be saved if they are covetous.​
Then you need to hope you can obey the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break, if you want to inherit the kingdom of God
 

Bible Highlighter

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It's called "type 2 works salvation" and it's s false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; 5:1; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..). Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 3:24, Romans 4:5-6 are all dealing with our Initial Salvation by God's grace. Being Initially Saved by God's grace is a process of salvation without works. It's received like a gift (Ephesians 2:8). Gifts are received one time. This would be in our Initial Salvation. One is quickened and or made alive in their Initial Salvation (Ephesians 2:1). Galatians 1:6-9 is in reference to believing the gospel message we receive in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Yes, we continue to believe this gospel message and it is a foundational doctrine we must believe our whole lives so as to stand (relating to our salvation). But faith also includes more than just believing in Jesus as our Savior, and believing the gospel message that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and risen the third day.

James 2:21 says, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?”
I know you said before that the word “justified” in this verse is non-salvific and that you would point to some verse like Luke 7:29 in saying that this verse is not in reference to the word “justified” being salvific. While it is true that the people justified God is not in relation to salvation, this is not the case with James 2:21. How can I prove it? Simple. Hebrews 11:17 says, “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,” So we see the same event here being described of Abraham offering Isaac. James 2:21 says this is being justified by works, and yet Hebrews 11:17 says that Abraham offered Isaac by FAITH. By FAITH Abraham did this. This is not the evidence of faith... but it is BY FAITH... Abraham offered up Isaac. Romans 5:1 says that, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God...” (Romans 5:1). Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,” (Romans 5:2). Faith is how we access God's grace. God's grace saves us (Ephesians 2:8).
 

Bible Highlighter

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Then you need to hope you can obey the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break, if you want to inherit the kingdom of God

I am quoting Scripture, and you are just relaying your own thoughts here. Explain the Scriptures I put forth to you.
If not, this only makes your belief look bankrupt.
 

Daydreamer

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I am quoting Scripture, and you are just relaying your own thoughts here. Explain the Scriptures I put forth to you.
If not, this only makes your belief look bankrupt.

I think you are now wording your replies somewhat different from what you have always stated. You believe nine of the ten commandments are applicable under the new covenant, and a person must obey them in order to be, or remain righteous before God. If you no longer believe that, plainly say so. If you do believe it still, you are going to have to obey the law relating to the inner man, full stop! Thou shalt NOT
 

Behold

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To all:

Some erroneously think discipleship is separate from salvation.

Discipleship is what you do, after Jesus on the Cross, this Blood Atonement, has been given to you so that you can become Born again.

So, did you do any discipleship, did you perform any for God, for God to save you, or did you go to God as a SINNER, and God saved you because you Believed.

But a heretic always wants to add discipleship to Salvation.. because all heretics are trying to work their way into heaven.

Listen,
There is no DISCIPLESHIP, occurring on the DAY God forgives you a SINNER.
You were an UNBELIEVER.

So, BibleHighlighter, to try to teach the lie that Discipleship is involved with going to the Cross to find SALVATiON< is really just lacking any common sense, or any Theological accuracy.
 

Behold

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Yet, that is what we see describe by the verses I shown to you on Sanctification.

Jesus is made unto us our """"Righteousness and our Sanctification, as well as our Eternal life and our Justification"..

Its all found "IN Christ", where all the born again exist as "ONE with God", as "the righteousness of God, in Christ".
 

Bible Highlighter

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I think you are now wording your replies somewhat different from what you have always stated. You believe nine of the ten commandments are applicable under the new covenant, and a person must obey them in order to be, or remain righteous before God. If you no longer believe that, plainly say so. If you do believe it still, you are going to have to obey the law relating to the inner man, full stop! Thou shalt NOT

No. Technically, the Law of Moses as a whole is no more (as a whole or package deal). We look to Jesus and not Moses. You don't know all of what I believe the Laws of Christ are. There are actually 440 commands approximately in the New Testament. Believers must the Sanctification Process by the Spirit to obey God and seek to obey the Lord's commands that come from Jesus and His followers. This happens after they are saved by God's grace through a belief alone in Jesus as the Savior and or believing the gospel message. God gives us space and time to obey His laws because we are not supermen. But if we refuse to seek in obeying God then you have a problem. Noah did not build the ark overnight. It took time for him to build that thing. I believe our cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God is the same thing. You may not accept that truth in Scripture, but that is of course your choice. Not believing Scripture is unbelief and it is denying the faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. You deny reading Scripture literally because you misinterpret 2 Corinthians 3:3, and 2 Corinthians 3:6. Yet, you read those verses literally and so... that like hypocritical.
 

Bible Highlighter

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To all:

I have already demonstrated in this thread a long list of different verses proving that a believer can fall away from salvation.
I even demonstrated also this with the Parable of the Prodigal Son, as well (Along with James 5:19-20).

But if that's not enough, here is another list.

Serious Sin Can Separate Us From GOD Verses:

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

"But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul." (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
 

Daydreamer

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No. Technically, the Law of Moses as a whole is no more (as a whole or package deal). We look to Jesus and not Moses. You don't know all of what I believe the Laws of Christ are. There are actually 440 commands approximately in the New Testament. Believers must the Sanctification Process by the Spirit to obey God and seek to obey the Lord's commands that come from Jesus and His followers. This happens after they are saved by God's grace through a belief alone in Jesus as the Savior and or believing the gospel message. God gives us space and time to obey His laws because we are not supermen. But if we refuse to seek in obeying God then you have a problem. Noah did not build the ark overnight. It took time for him to build that thing. I believe our cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God is the same thing. You may not accept that truth in Scripture, but that is of course your choice. Not believing Scripture is unbelief and it is denying the faith. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God. You deny reading Scripture literally because you misinterpret 2 Corinthians 3:3, and 2 Corinthians 3:6. Yet, you read those verses literally and so... that like hypocritical.
Firstly, the letter that kills is NOT(NOT) law that no longer is applicable under the new covenant, for the law that is no longer applicable could be perfectly obeyed. Secondly, do you still believe nine of the ten commandments are applicable law under the new covenant and must be obeyed to be or remain righteous before God? That's a simple question, which you will give a simple answer to I am sure, if you do not feel uncomfortable with doing so
 

Behold

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N I believe our cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God is the same thing.

You can't cleanse yourself from the Flesh and Spirit.
If you could then you would not need to be born again.

Your teaching is truly nowhere found in the NT, according to your posts .
Its just your imagination, as you see fit to post it., using a few verses to try to insinuate what you teach is biblical.
 

Behold

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To all:

I have already demonstrated in this thread a long list of different verses proving that a believer can fall away from salvation.
.

No verse in the NT says you can "fall away from Salvation" or "lose salvation".

There is no verse in the bible that says that you can be unborn again.

What you teach is standard anti-Grace Cross denying..>>"Here is what you must do to stay saved", legalism.

The verse that is your core, is "fallen from Grace" as you are teaching the same demonic deception that everyone teaches when they teach that God does not keep you saved,..... after He told you He does, in Philippians 1:6....>"God Himself will be faithful to complete what HE STARTED IN THE BORN AGAIN"< = Their Salvation.
 

Daydreamer

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You deny reading Scripture literally because you misinterpret 2 Corinthians 3:3, .

I do not misinterpret it at all. Paul plainly states it is not a law engraved in stone for the believer but one written in human hearts. The new covenant itself states God will write the law in believers minds and place it on their hearts. I will add to that. If someone could commit adultery and have no heartfelt conviction of sin by doing so they have not been born again. For: through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20
 

Bible Highlighter

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What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I (I) had not known sin, but by the law: for I(1) had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in ME(ME) all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I(I) was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I(I) died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I(I) found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived ME(ME) and by it slew ME(ME).

First, it is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Two, Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problems with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24 (and not the many Laws of Christ).

Boasting is excluded when it comes to the faith (See: Romans 3:27).
So when you read about boasting involving works in Ephesians 2:9 it is referring to works done outside of the faith.
Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about works done in the faith.
 
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Behold

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Boasting is excluded when it comes to the faith.

Your boasting began when you decided you could keep yourself saved, because you believe Jesus's can't.

How long ago was that?
the '90s?

See your problem yet, BibleHighlighter ????
Take a good look., as we see it.
God sees it.
Can you will you ever ??
 
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Daydreamer

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First, it is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Two, Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problems with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24 (and not the many Laws of Christ).

Boasting is excluded when it comes to the faith.
So when you read about boasting involving works in Ephesians 2:9 it is referring to works done outside of the faith.
Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and talks about works done in the faith.
Im afraid you have a very poor understanding of Rom7:7-11. You wrote:
He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian
The passage is speaking of Saul the pharisee. At the age of 13 he made a personal commitment to God. So now he has to obey the law or he is condemned. He must have been raised a strict pharisee. No condemnation before then so he felt alive, but not afterwards for then came the condemnation through failing to bey the law!
You wrote:
Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life?
When Saul made a commitment to God at the age of 13, as far as he was concerned obeying the commandments was being ordained to life. Can you not understand that? Obey the law and live, fail to obey it and be condemned.
You wrote:
Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him.

He is speaking of his life as a pharisee. If he could not obey the ten commandments he was condemned.