Does God need man?

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Matthias

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“If anyone says to you, ‘Why are you doing this?’ say, ‘The Lord has need of it.’”

(Mark 11:3)

And do not fear whatever comes out of the tunnel when you do.

“You may be small in your own eyes, but God has need of you!”

(Paul Van Gorder, “God Needs You!”)

 

Matthias

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Whom is Paul Van Goober?

He he like a redneck preacher or something?

Paul Van Gorder (deceased) was a Baptist preacher who held your position on the question, Does God need man? (Other of your beliefs too, I would suspect.)


I used to listen to him on the radio and read his devotionals published in Our Daily Bread. He might have been active before your time.
 

Matthias

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What position is that?

Your stated position on, Does God need man? (I alluded to some others in my post without specifying any particulars.)

If he was baptist, then he would have taught the false doctrines of OSAS so we would not have been buddies and I wouldn't have sent any money to support his "ministry"

There is no “if” about it. He was a well-known - nationally and internationally - Baptist pastor. I was raised Southern Baptist but I no longer hold many of his / Baptist beliefs. There are still some things which I can and do agree with Baptists about. You mentioned OSAS. I believed that when I was a Baptist. I no longer do.

I never sent him any money and I doubt very much that he would have considered me his “buddy” after I became a Jewish monotheist, had he ever become aware of it.

Even so, he and I would still have been able to agree that God needs man.
 

BlessedPeace

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Without ever admitting it, he's subtly suggesting that God created man for the purpose of condemning him, so he could then save him.

Like God is a narcissist with a Savior (messiah) complex.

It's a disgusting representation. Among God's needs-- He must (according to this false belief) need to be a hero.
That sums it up nicely,yes.
 

BlessedPeace

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The Great Oz doesn’t think so.
All these posts later you finally post a source,a non-biblical source for your strange pov and it shows your argument wasn't original. It was borrowed,without credit till now,from a Rabbi.

Given that,your attempt at transferring his perspective into your own words failed.

How often have you done that?

Mr.E said you pride yourself on following logic.

Has that impression actually arrived due to your rewording other authors intellectual property and then posting ,passing, it off as your own?

Because in this case of your God needs man pursuit, you diverged greatly from scripture,while never citing any, and failed in rewording anything a Rabbi would know or state.
 

Aunty Jane

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I think this may be the most popular heresy of the modern age - that "heaven" is an alternate-reality, extra-dimensional spirit realm.
A heresy??? Are you serious? “Heaven” has several meanings in the Bible. It means the physical heavens of course, but it has a range of meaning outside of that. Context determines what is meant.

Daniel, in his explanation to King Nebuchadnezzar concerning his dream said….in Daniel 2:28…
”However, there exists a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar what is to occur in the final part of the days”.….here is “God in the heavens”, but then in v 37-38 he says…
”You, O king, the king of kings, you to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the might, and the strength and the dignity, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever the sons of mankind are dwelling, the beasts of the field and the winged creatures of the heavens, and whom he has made ruler over all of them, you yourself are the head of gold.”
Do birds fly in outer space? It’s the same word….”šᵊmayin”.

Heaven is the place where God dwells, along with his spirit sons…..that would be because God is not a corporeal Being….he is a “spirit” as it plainly says in the scriptures. His angels are spirits too. The realm they dwell in is not material as Paul says in Colossians…..Jesus is “the image of the invisible God (Col1:15)…..
what image does an invisible God have, do you think?
The Bible entertains no such notion. The heavens it talks about are the literal heavens. You can see them right now by walking outside and looking UP.

Heavenly bodies may be different from earthly bodies, but they're both still bodies. Neither is incorporeal. If this were false, then astronauts could not land on the moon, and we wouldn't be afraid of asteroids.
Wow! who has blinded you to the Bible’s truth? There is more than one “heaven”. Have you never looked up this word in a concordance?
Likewise, a spiritual body may be different from a psychical body, but they are both still bodies. Neither is incorporeal. The difference lies in the power source. Our natural bodies move and act under the power of our minds. Spiritual bodies move and act under the power of the spirit.
What are angels then? They are seen in heaven with God, serving him as Universal Sovereign.
When Jesus said he “came down from heaven”, do you assume that he came from another planet?
Where does the Bible say that?
I think I'll stop here, because I know... I'm wasting my time on this conversation. For you to hear this and understand, you would have to change your whole paradigm, and that isn't going to happen in a day. I sincerely doubt that you could relinquish your cherished belief that at death you will be Star-Trek-transported to an alternate reality of delights.
Rest assured that I personally hold no such hope….my destiny is entirely earthly. Everything I believe is supported by the Bible. I find your beliefs rather ‘Star Trekki’ actually.
But, at the end of the Bible, people are resurrected bodily, on the earth, and it is God that comes DOWN, and not us that goes UP.
The Bible speaks of more than one resurrection…..but you knew that, right?

There are those who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom and these it says are resurrected “first” (Rev 20:6; 1 Thess 4:16) in order to take up their positions in readiness for the kingdom’s rule over mankind. They will “go up” after being transformed into spirit beings so that their bodies will not perish in the presence of God.
The general resurrection of the dead takes place after the kingdom‘s rule is established over the earth, when it has been cleansed of all wickedness. (John 5:28-29)

Not sure if you are a Mormon or not, but it sure sounds like it. Is there only one “heaven” in your belief system?…..please go and do some research on that subject…..there are three that are obvious in the Bible….and more….
The spiritual heavens where spirit creatures exist in the presence of God…..the physical heavens within earth’s atmosphere where the birds fly and the wind blows and clouds form….and then there is the heavens beyond our planet in outer space. The Bible speaks of all three and then some.

Who told you otherwise?
 
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Matthias

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All these posts later you finally post a source,a non-biblical source for your strange pov and it shows your argument wasn't original. It was borrowed,without credit till now,from a Rabbi.

Given that,your attempt at transferring his perspective into your own words failed.

How often have you done that?

Mr.E said you pride yourself on following logic.

Has that impression actually arrived due to your rewording other authors intellectual property and then posting ,passing, it off as your own?

Because in this case of your God needs man pursuit, you diverged greatly from scripture,while never citing any, and failed in rewording anything a Rabbi would know or state.

I recommend that you (and anyone interested in the subject and/or your allegations) read the thread from the beginning.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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No. Jesus is my lord and savior. I’m a primitive / Ante-Nicene Christian.

Yeah, so... what does all that mean?
You don't like the Nicene people? What did they do to you? laughing.gif


Maybe you can push him over the edge into atheism or satanism

No, I don't advocate for anyone to follow doctrine not taught in the New Testament including atheism or satanism disagree.gif
 

Matthias

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Yeah, so... what does all that mean?

It means that my form of Christianity existed before the form of Christianity that became institutionalized at the Council of Nicaea, expressed in the Nicene creed, in 325 A.D. and as modified by the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D.

You don't like the Nicene people?

Ante -> before; anti -> against.

I like the Nicene people and pray for their well-being.

What did they do to you? View attachment 40185

They persecuted my spiritual ancestors and, to a lesser degree, continue to persecute us to this today.
 

Big Boy Johnson

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It means that my form of Christianity existed before the form of Christianity that became institutionalized at the Council of Nicaea, expressed in the Nicene creed, in 325 A.D. and as modified by the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D.

That would be going back to what the Apostles taught and as such you would also reject the teachings of the reformers also.

So you do reject the teachings of Martin Luther and John Calvin too?
 

Wick Stick

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A heresy??? Are you serious?
Yes.
“Heaven” has several meanings in the Bible. It means the physical heavens of course, but it has a range of meaning outside of that. Context determines what is meant.
It's usually plural - heavens - and those "several meanings" are usually regarded as different heavens, or different levels of heaven.

It can mean our blue skies and clouds OR it can refer to space and the planets and stars. We know that Paul believed in at least 3 heavens, because he writes about 'the third heaven,' but other books refer to even larger numbers of heavens, 7 or 10 usually.

In the Book of Matthew, "heaven" is used to refer to God Himself, because Matthew followed the Jewish practice of not writing the name of God, and used this word as a substitute.

But "heaven" doesn't ever mean a different dimension that isn't part of our reality.
Daniel, in his explanation to King Nebuchadnezzar concerning his dream said….in Daniel 2:28…
”However, there exists a God in the heavens who is a Revealer of secrets, and he has made known to King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar what is to occur in the final part of the days”.….here is “God in the heavens”, but then in v 37-38 he says…
”You, O king, the king of kings, you to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the might, and the strength and the dignity, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever the sons of mankind are dwelling, the beasts of the field and the winged creatures of the heavens, and whom he has made ruler over all of them, you yourself are the head of gold.”
Yes, God is in heaven. He's also here on earth. And he's also present even under the earth, in hell, per Psalms 119.

Since God is a Spirit, He is embodied in all of His creation. Not separated from it.

But the point of referring to God as "in the heavens" here in Daniel, and elsewhere in the Bible, is to re-emphasize that He is All-Seeing.

Do birds fly in outer space? It’s the same word….”šᵊmayin”.
Yes, the same word refers to both our atmosphere and outer space. Covered this above.

Heaven is the place where God dwells, along with his spirit sons…..that would be because God is not a corporeal Being….he is a “spirit” as it plainly says in the scriptures.
Spirits live in bodies. They don't exist in some separate plane of existence where they are dis-embodied.

His angels are spirits too. The realm they dwell in is not material
There's different kinds of angels. And sometimes the Bible sometimes uses the word "angel" to just mean a human messenger. Let's skip that can of worms.

as Paul says in Colossians…..Jesus is “the image of the invisible God (Col1:15)…. what image does an invisible God have, do you think?
I think you've mis-understood the verse. The idea here is that God has established Jesus as an icon of Himself, such that we can worship Him in the person of Jesus. There is no idea of physical similarity here.

Wow! who has blinded you to the Bible’s truth? There is more than one “heaven”. Have you never looked up this word in a concordance?
Hey, that was my point above. I guess you said it first. And yes, I'm reasonably familiar with Thayer's and Gesenius' lexicons.

What are angels then? They are seen in heaven with God, serving him as Universal Sovereign.
Still a can of worms. Skipping.
When Jesus said he “came down from heaven”, do you assume that he came from another planet?
No assumptions are necessary. I believe what the Bible says, that God's Spirit was incarnated as a man.

Spirits live in bodies.

Rest assured that I personally hold no such hope….my destiny is entirely earthly. Everything I believe is supported by the Bible.
I didn't give you enough credit, I guess.

The Bible speaks of more than one resurrection…..but you knew that, right?
There's the resurrection of the martyrs, and then there's a general resurrection for the Judgment.

Why do you suppose that God resurrects people, only to then Judge them and destroy them? I think it's because you have to exist to be judged, and disembodied spirits... don't exist.

There are those who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom and these it says are resurrected “first” (Rev 20:6; 1 Thess 4:16) in order to take up their positions in readiness for the kingdom’s rule over mankind. They will “go up” after being transformed into spirit beings so that their bodies will not perish in the presence of God.
They don't "go up." They are gathered to meet Christ at His coming. I think you might need to use the lexicon to look up ἁρπάζω.

Not sure if you are a Mormon or not, but it sure sounds like it. Is there only one “heaven” in your belief system?…..please go and do some research on that subject…..there are three that are obvious in the Bible….and more….
No.

Also, it's weird to try and pigeon-hole someone as some kind of cult-member. It feels a little grimy, like you're trying to assassinate their character by associating them with something unsavory.

The spiritual heavens where spirit creatures exist in the presence of God…..the physical heavens within earth’s atmosphere where the birds fly and the wind blows and clouds form….and then there is the heavens beyond our planet in outer space. The Bible speaks of all three and then some.

Who told you otherwise?
The Bible.
 

Matthias

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That would be going back to what the Apostles taught and as such you would also reject the teachings of the reformers also.

In many respects, yes.

So you do reject the teachings of Martin Luther and John Calvin too?

Not entirely.

More to the point, I don’t think the Protestant Reformation went far enough. I have roots in what is known as the Radical Reformation. See some sects among the Anabaptists and the Socinians.
 

Matthias

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“Since God is the highest good, he would not allow any evil to exist in his works unless his omnipotence and goodness were such as to bring good even out of evil.” - Augustine
 
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rockytopva

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Does God need man? Let's say I owned 10,000 acres of farm land here in Virginia and had lucrative agricultural projects all over the property. And then decide to grow an acre of it a garden in which I planted a variety of vegetables and servants to mind the project ...

1. Potatoes
2. Onions
3. Corn
4. Tomatoes
5. Cucumbers

Come August I would want to harvest the fresh vegetables, make some savory steak from the livestock, send servants to the store for what I didn't grown for things like fresh bread. I then would prepare a wonderful meal that would have the capacity of feeding the whole town. I would want to invite folks to the meal so as not to waste the food. At the end of time God will harvest the fruits of his labor and we will attend as it were a great marriage feast. The more in attendance the greater the time we will have together. So God calls man to help with the latter day harvest. The greater our work the greater the reward. The greater the success of the end time harvest, the greater the sense of satisfaction for God.

15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.
16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:
17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.
18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.
19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.
20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.
21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.
22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.
23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. - Luke 14

I would imagine that God is filling the place in heaven Lucifer the Archangel vacated. I would imagine, having eaten wonderful country meals myself, tasting of the goodness of fresh food, that this marriage supper is going to be glorious. I would also imagine, judging by the size of the universe, great possibilities of richness. The satisfaction for God the Father is to see what will become the eternal satisfaction of his elect.