Does the Bible identify "Babylon"?

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Trekson

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Babylon isn't one single country. It isn't a country at all. It's a global religion with confused/babylon people will be the majority population of all countries.
That is what a lot of folks errantly believe but just like the descriptions of the two witnesses cause some to believe they are the church and Israel instead of the correct view of two men, the descriptions of Mystery Babylon eliminate a religious system from being a serious contender. It is a nation personified by a city that is a center for 'world" trade and finances as the Babylon of old used to be and there are many other clues that point to America as well.
 

ewq1938

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That is what a lot of folks errantly believe but just like the descriptions of the two witnesses cause some to believe they are the church and Israel instead of the correct view of two men


That isn't the correct view of the two witnesses either. Scriptures says they are two olives trees AND two candlesticks. Candle sticks are churches so that alone shows the two witnesses are more than two men. You are wrong on what Babylon is as well.
 

Trekson

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That isn't the correct view of the two witnesses either. Scriptures says they are two olives trees AND two candlesticks. Candle sticks are churches so that alone shows the two witnesses are more than two men. You are wrong on what Babylon is as well.
The symbolic description of the two witnesses isn't based on the seven churches but on Zech. 4!
 

Hobie

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I didn't read all the replies but I stand w/ the ones that believe America is Mystery Babylon. As of this time no other nation comes close and no it's not some sort of evil religious system Btw, in the bible a woman symbolizes Israel. There is a reason why Paul worded it that way and that's because he is using the metaphor of marriage to describe the unity we have in Christ and each other and to being subject to "one" God and not dozens which was the norm back in Paul's day in Corinth.
America has only been around for a few years, not enough for it to be "Mystery Babylon", nor did it persecute the saints or blaspheme or do much of what Rome did, so it doesnt qualify.
 

ewq1938

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The symbolic description of the two witnesses isn't based on the seven churches but on Zech. 4!


No, the full description is in Rev 11.

Zech 4 is about the two olive trees only.
 

Zao is life

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In Hebrew, whether its the tower, the city, the empire, and its meaning in prophecy down to the close of human history and Christs return, are all the same Hebrew word babel , Babylon. Babel is Babylon and Babel is confusion.

The name Babylon is derived from BAB-ILU which was “gate of the gods” or "the portal of the gods", and in a sense it thus portrays a means of access to the gods that is contrary to God's prescribed plan of salvation. Access is granted through the system and not by faith in Jesus Christ. It is a system where salvation by works replaces salvation by faith and the Protestant Reformers realized it and the system behind it.

The Babylonian system of worship has ever been a snare to God's people, as it is more in tune with human nature to rely on salvation by works than on salvation by grace. From the very beginning, these two systems of worship have been in confrontation with each other. The story of Cain and Abel illustrates this point. Abel listened to the divine directive and brought a lamb without blemish as an offering, but Cain brought the fruits of his labor. When the offering of Abel was accepted by God, the anger of Cain was aroused and ever since, this first confrontation between these two systems of worship, has been in conflict on this planet.

Ancient Babylon serves as a type of a much greater end-time confederacy of religious apostasy and intolerance that would seek to control conscience before the close of earth's history, and yet it will meet its end. We see in Revelation 14:8...
"And there followed another angel saying, 'Babylon is fallen is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.'" Revelation 14:8

The Bible warns against Babylon, and urge God's people to come out of Babylon, and we see it also reflecting the spiritual decay of the system...

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Revelation 18:2

The unclean and hateful birds appears to reference a counterfeit Holy Spirit that would power the system and lead people to believe that they are working with the power of God when it is a deception masquerading as truth. In verse 4, we see it with a warning..

"Come out of her My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4

God would not urge His people to come out of Babylon if it were impossible for them to identify Babylon. During the early Christian centuries, Jewish and Christian literature referred to the city of Rome as Babylon. 1 Peter 5:13 also refers to Rome as Babylon, as Peter wrote these words whilst in Rome, and literal Babylon no longer existed....

"The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son." 1 Peter 5:13

In Revelation 17, John is invited to witness the judgment of the great prostitute who sits on many waters, seductively deceiving the inhabitants of the earth. This woman is subsequently identified as “ ‘Babylon the great, the mother of harlots’ ”. In the scriptures, a prostitute symbolically refers to God’s people in their apostasy. The portrayal of the prostitute in Revelation 17 shows that she represents an entity that was once faithful to God before aligning herself with the end-time opponent of God and His faithful remnant. Babylon is thus a corporate name for an end-time apostate entity.

The Protestants of the Reformation knew who it was and referred to it as spiritual Babylon, the antichrist entity and enemy of God's people. The woman that rides the beast in Revelation 17 also has all the identifying features which make it easier to find...

"1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." Revelation 17:1-2.

The woman is first referenced to as sitting on “many waters” and according to Revelation 17:5, the waters upon which the prostitute was seen symbolize the civil, secular, and political powers of the world. Just as the ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will the end-time Babylon depend on the civil, secular, and political powers of the world to enforce its plans and purposes.

"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written: Mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth." Revelation 17:4-5.

In the Bible the symbol of a woman represents the church. Isaiah the prophet extends the symbol of a woman to that of a bride. The pure bride represents the pure church..

"As the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee." Isaiah 62:5.

We find in the New Testament the same symbolism is employed...

"...for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:2.

Babylon is described in Revelation 17:5 as the "mother of harlots" an apostate religious systems or church, "Mystery" and the "abominations of the earth". Obviously if God's people are the chaste woman faithful to her husband, then Babylon is the opposite of this symbol or that system of worship which is unfaithful to God, and has a mystery religion and teaches and practices abominations.

Its not hard to figure out who persecuted the saints, and brought in the paganism and abominable practices into the church...
I've noticed a few things with regard to Babylon the Great.

Two cities: New Jerusalem, and Babylon the Great. The Revelation makes a thesis-antithesis comparison between the two:-

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." (Revelation 21:9)

"And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me, Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters" (Revelation 17:1).

* New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).
* The harlot is "..gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).

In the Revelation, only Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers, the kings of the earth, and the harlot are accused of fornication.

Jesus rules over the faithful 'kings of the earth' (Revelation 1:5).
Babylon the Great rules over the unfaithful 'kings of the earth' (Revelation 17:18).

The faithful 'kings of the earth' are seen in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24).

IMO, 'the kings of the earth' that committed fornication with Babylon the Great and wept and wailed over her demise (Revelation 18:9) are hardly the same as the 10 kings who will hate her, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire (Rev 17:16).

The harlot sits on many waters, which, just as in the days of Babylon, represents people, nations, tribes and tongues (Revelation 17:15).

I.O.W the harlot is 'catholic' (which means 'universal').

The beast of Revelation 13 will also gain authority and power over 'every tribe, people, language, and nation' (Revelation 13:7). The ten kings of this beast will hate the harlot, eat her flesh and burn her with fire (Revelation 17:16).

But 'the kings of the earth' who committed fornication with the harlot will weep and lament over her demise.

In the days of the Old Testament, God called the unfaithful among His elect an harlot.

Personally, I don't see why it would be any different in the days of the New Testament.
 

Trekson

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America has only been around for a few years, not enough for it to be "Mystery Babylon", nor did it persecute the saints or blaspheme or do much of what Rome did, so it doesnt qualify.
This is a book of prophecy, not a book of history. It doesn't matter what nations did what in the past, it is what that particular future nation will do in the future that matters. With the anti-christian sentiment growing greater in America on a daily basis, I have no doubt that we will become a nation that fulfills Rev. 17:6 in the relatively near future. It's the beast she sits on that blasphemes, the 10 nation a/c coalition.
 

Trekson

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No, the full description is in Rev 11.

Zech 4 is about the two olive trees only.
The key is Zech. 4:12, Ask yourself, why are the churches called candlesticks? what does that symbolism represent? That same representation will be fulfilled w/ the two human witnesses. That's why they are referred to as olive trees associated w/ the symbolism of the candlesticks, churches have nothing to do with it.
 

ewq1938

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The key is Zech. 4:12, Ask yourself, why are the churches called candlesticks? what does that symbolism represent? That same representation will be fulfilled w/ the two human witnesses. That's why they are referred to as olive trees associated w/ the symbolism of the candlesticks, churches have nothing to do with it.

That is not what Rev 11 tells us:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Anyone that says the two witnesses are not also two churches does not know what they are talking about.
 

Trekson

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That is not what Rev 11 tells us:

Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


Anyone that says the two witnesses are not also two churches does not know what they are talking about.
It's really not that hard to understand. They are two olive trees because they are bringing God's message to Israel and they are called candlesticks because they are representing Christ as the "Light" of the world. That's all, nothing more and nothing less!
 

Ronald Nolette

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In Hebrew, whether its the tower, the city, the empire, and its meaning in prophecy down to the close of human history and Christs return, are all the same Hebrew word babel , Babylon. Babel is Babylon and Babel is confusion.

The name Babylon is derived from BAB-ILU which was “gate of the gods” or "the portal of the gods", and in a sense it thus portrays a means of access to the gods that is contrary to God's prescribed plan of salvation. Access is granted through the system and not by faith in Jesus Christ. It is a system where salvation by works replaces salvation by faith and the Protestant Reformers realized it and the system behind it.

The Babylonian system of worship has ever been a snare to God's people, as it is more in tune with human nature to rely on salvation by works than on salvation by grace. From the very beginning, these two systems of worship have been in confrontation with each other. The story of Cain and Abel illustrates this point. Abel listened to the divine directive and brought a lamb without blemish as an offering, but Cain brought the fruits of his labor. When the offering of Abel was accepted by God, the anger of Cain was aroused and ever since, this first confrontation between these two systems of worship, has been in conflict on this planet.

Ancient Babylon serves as a type of a much greater end-time confederacy of religious apostasy and intolerance that would seek to control conscience before the close of earth's history, and yet it will meet its end. We see in Revelation 14:8...
"And there followed another angel saying, 'Babylon is fallen is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.'" Revelation 14:8

The Bible warns against Babylon, and urge God's people to come out of Babylon, and we see it also reflecting the spiritual decay of the system...

"And he cried mightily with a strong voice saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird." Revelation 18:2

The unclean and hateful birds appears to reference a counterfeit Holy Spirit that would power the system and lead people to believe that they are working with the power of God when it is a deception masquerading as truth. In verse 4, we see it with a warning..

"Come out of her My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:4

God would not urge His people to come out of Babylon if it were impossible for them to identify Babylon. During the early Christian centuries, Jewish and Christian literature referred to the city of Rome as Babylon. 1 Peter 5:13 also refers to Rome as Babylon, as Peter wrote these words whilst in Rome, and literal Babylon no longer existed....

"The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son." 1 Peter 5:13

In Revelation 17, John is invited to witness the judgment of the great prostitute who sits on many waters, seductively deceiving the inhabitants of the earth. This woman is subsequently identified as “ ‘Babylon the great, the mother of harlots’ ”. In the scriptures, a prostitute symbolically refers to God’s people in their apostasy. The portrayal of the prostitute in Revelation 17 shows that she represents an entity that was once faithful to God before aligning herself with the end-time opponent of God and His faithful remnant. Babylon is thus a corporate name for an end-time apostate entity.

The Protestants of the Reformation knew who it was and referred to it as spiritual Babylon, the antichrist entity and enemy of God's people. The woman that rides the beast in Revelation 17 also has all the identifying features which make it easier to find...

"1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." Revelation 17:1-2.

The woman is first referenced to as sitting on “many waters” and according to Revelation 17:5, the waters upon which the prostitute was seen symbolize the civil, secular, and political powers of the world. Just as the ancient Babylon depended on the Euphrates River for its existence, so will the end-time Babylon depend on the civil, secular, and political powers of the world to enforce its plans and purposes.

"And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written: Mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth." Revelation 17:4-5.

In the Bible the symbol of a woman represents the church. Isaiah the prophet extends the symbol of a woman to that of a bride. The pure bride represents the pure church..

"As the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee." Isaiah 62:5.

We find in the New Testament the same symbolism is employed...

"...for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:2.

Babylon is described in Revelation 17:5 as the "mother of harlots" an apostate religious systems or church, "Mystery" and the "abominations of the earth". Obviously if God's people are the chaste woman faithful to her husband, then Babylon is the opposite of this symbol or that system of worship which is unfaithful to God, and has a mystery religion and teaches and practices abominations.

Its not hard to figure out who persecuted the saints, and brought in the paganism and abominable practices into the church...
Well Babylon- biblically speaking is derived from "babel" which means confusion, for it is there that the Lord confounded the languages of the people. Babylon was built or started by Nimrod.

Mystery Babylon is not the modern RCC church as you not so subtly hint at. It goes back far further than that! all the way back to Nimrod with his mother/wife Semiramis. It is here that the mystery religions were started and carried on throughout teh centuries in their varied forms. Many sects both within and without Christendom practicew many of the mystery rites of teh mother of harlots.

Remember this mystery babyolon is the mother of all harlots and abominations(spiritually). so it cannot be an AD iteration of anything.
 

Ronald Nolette

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It's really not that hard to understand. They are two olive trees because they are bringing God's message to Israel and they are called candlesticks because they are representing Christ as the "Light" of the world. That's all, nothing more and nothing less!
And that also means they are two individuals. the candlesticks in revelation do not mean that every time a candlestick is spoken of- it means churches, especially in light of the fact they stand in the presence of God meaning physically before Him- not like everything else that stands.
 

ewq1938

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It's really not that hard to understand. They are two olive trees because they are bringing God's message to Israel and they are called candlesticks because they are representing Christ as the "Light" of the world. That's all, nothing more and nothing less!

Two men are not also two churches. Churches are multiple peoples. You also don't seem to understand the relationship between olive trees and the candlesticks.

There are two witnesses because that's what Revelation 11 tells us but that also does not mean the two witnesses are just two people. Scripture says the two witnesses are two candlesticks AND two olive trees. Candlesticks are churches and that's an unknown amount of people, and two olive trees is two anointed prophets which is actually two people but the two churches are much more people. The two olive trees feed olive oil to the candlesticks/churches so their spiritual flame can light their path. Same concept in the parable of the 10 virgins.


Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
 

Desire Of All Nations

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Sorry. It's the Bible truth. I'm not saying everyone that believes false tradition is unsaved, so long as it doesn't ruin our confession of Jesus as Lord and God, nor lead to ungodly living.


JW's are the same as you. They have their own testament written for themselves. They just don't put it on their book's cover. At least you're honest about it. They try to call it another translation only. JW's sneak into houses to proselytize with their own gospel. Mormons are much more up front about it.


Thank you, to you and your love of the Lord Jesus also.
2 Jhn 9 says whoever doesn't abide in the doctrines of Christ has no real relationship with God. It's not enough to accept Jesus' divinity and everything as an intellectual exercise. True Christians cannot call God a liar and honestly lay claim to having a good relationship with Him. There is a reason why Paul was inspired by God to pronounce a double curse on literally any angel or man that dared to preach anything that was contrary to the gospel he preached.
I didn't read all the replies but I stand w/ the ones that believe America is Mystery Babylon. As of this time no other nation comes close and no it's not some sort of evil religious system Btw, in the bible a woman symbolizes Israel. There is a reason why Paul worded it that way and that's because he is using the metaphor of marriage to describe the unity we have in Christ and each other and to being subject to "one" God and not dozens which was the norm back in Paul's day in Corinth.
The Bible speaks for itself, and a woman in prophecy always represent a church. The fact that the woman in Rev. 17 exists in opposition to the woman described in chapter 12(who happens to represent God's Church) clearly means this woman also represents a church, but it's a Gentile church that is led by Satan. It doesn't matter how many ppl believe it's referring to America because they're all extremely wrong. All of the symbols and imagery supplied in Rev. 17 shows that it is clearly about a Roman church that is wielding influence over a political empire.

To pretend that it's about anything other than is simply ignorant when the Bible clearly says this woman sits on 7 hills. That's a clear and obvious indicator that this is a church that rules from Rome. It just doesn't get any plainer than that!
 
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Trekson

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And that also means they are two individuals. the candlesticks in revelation do not mean that every time a candlestick is spoken of- it means churches, especially in light of the fact they stand in the presence of God meaning physically before Him- not like everything else that stands.
Exactly!
 

Trekson

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Two men are not also two churches. Churches are multiple peoples. You also don't seem to understand the relationship between olive trees and the candlesticks.

There are two witnesses because that's what Revelation 11 tells us but that also does not mean the two witnesses are just two people. Scripture says the two witnesses are two candlesticks AND two olive trees. Candlesticks are churches and that's an unknown amount of people, and two olive trees is two anointed prophets which is actually two people but the two churches are much more people. The two olive trees feed olive oil to the candlesticks/churches so their spiritual flame can light their path. Same concept in the parable of the 10 virgins.


Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Yes, in this case the oil represents the "power" of the HS and that is what is being poured into the two olive trees (men) so they have the power to to devour their enemies through the "fire" that comes out of their mouths and to smite the earth w/ plagues, like (the man) Moses did and yes I believe this will be literal.
 

Trekson

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2 Jhn 9 says whoever doesn't abide in the doctrines of Christ has no real relationship with God. It's not enough to accept Jesus' divinity and everything as an intellectual exercise. True Christians cannot call God a liar and honestly lay claim to having a good relationship with Him. There is a reason why Paul was inspired by God to pronounce a double curse on literally any angel or man that dared to preach anything that was contrary to the gospel he preached.

The Bible speaks for itself, and a woman in prophecy always represent a church. The fact that the woman in Rev. 17 exists in opposition to the woman described in chapter 12(who happens to represent God's Church) clearly means this woman also represents a church, but it's a Gentile church that is led by Satan. It doesn't matter how many ppl believe it's referring to America because they're all extremely wrong. All of the symbols and imagery supplied in Rev. 17 shows that it is clearly about a Roman church that is wielding influence over a political empire.

To pretend that it's about anything other than is simply ignorant when the Bible clearly says this woman sits on 7 hills. That's a clear and obvious indicator that this is a church that rules from Rome. It just doesn't get any plainer than that!
Really, How much "wisdom" would it take to guess Rome? But in this case I believe John actually means "mountains" and not hills. None, so that should tell one right away that he's not speaking of Rome, if he was he simply would have said so and no he wasn't speaking in some kind of code, Romans weren't idiots, and he knows that the splendor and power used by this Babylon is similar to the Babylon of old, yet he knows that not the proper identity either. The "woman" of Rev. 12 is Israel, than believing Israel when they go into hiding, and is certainly not the church so there goes that false concept that a woman in prophecy always means the church. I think the woman in Rev. 17 means when these times are fulfilled we will have a female president. At this time satan will have no interest in the gentile church except ot persecute and kill us (Rev. 12:17), the a/c will deceive Israel into believing that he is the Messiah. His purpose is to have Israel's praise and worship attributed to him "instead" (what the "anti" really means) of Christ. During the 70th week, Rome is irrelevant!
 

ewq1938

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Yes, in this case the oil represents the "power" of the HS and that is what is being poured into the two olive trees (men) so they have the power to to devour their enemies through the "fire" that comes out of their mouths and to smite the earth w/ plagues, like (the man) Moses did and yes I believe this will be literal.

The bible also states the olive trees provide oil that comes from them. The candlestick is a bad translation as it is acually an oil lamp that uses a wick to burn olive oil. These two men, who are the two prophets of Rev 11, provide this symbolic oil to two churches. The two men and these two churches are the two witnesses.
 

Trekson

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The bible also states the olive trees provide oil that comes from them. The candlestick is a bad translation as it is acually an oil lamp that uses a wick to burn olive oil. These two men, who are the two prophets of Rev 11, provide this symbolic oil to two churches. The two men and these two churches are the two witnesses.
That's not quite true. The description of Zech. 4:1 says "...and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:" This is a description of a menorah that is oil-based. A menorah looks like a candlestick w/ seven flames, the oil runs up through the pipes to fuel the flames. They, the "two anointed ones" are the candlesticks in Rev. 11 which is a metaphor for "light bringers" and the HS (olive oil) provides the power they use in their ministry.
 

Hobie

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Really, How much "wisdom" would it take to guess Rome? But in this case I believe John actually means "mountains" and not hills. None, so that should tell one right away that he's not speaking of Rome, if he was he simply would have said so and no he wasn't speaking in some kind of code, Romans weren't idiots, and he knows that the splendor and power used by this Babylon is similar to the Babylon of old, yet he knows that not the proper identity either. The "woman" of Rev. 12 is Israel, than believing Israel when they go into hiding, and is certainly not the church so there goes that false concept that a woman in prophecy always means the church. I think the woman in Rev. 17 means when these times are fulfilled we will have a female president. At this time satan will have no interest in the gentile church except ot persecute and kill us (Rev. 12:17), the a/c will deceive Israel into believing that he is the Messiah. His purpose is to have Israel's praise and worship attributed to him "instead" (what the "anti" really means) of Christ. During the 70th week, Rome is irrelevant!
This is not scriptural but a mixing and distortion of what is given, Johns says what he saw and the prophecy is within the words he gives. The woman was the church who by this time was changing from the first converts from Israel to all the expanse of the empire so soon was more gentiles than Jews. And who took over the Christians from there, it was the church at Rome, look in any history of Western Civilization and you will see..