Does the Church still possess miraculous gifts today?

[KingJ]

KingJ,

I understand what you are trying to say, I just dont think you often communicate it very clearly. For instance, you said the following:

Thus, it comes across that the difference between magic and signs in your mind is the intent of feeding hungry people vs. giving a sign. The fact is that the "miracles" of Jesus were generally signs, and were called signs. They were were not primarily for benevolence purposes, although certainly Christ's compassion played a part of many of them...they still served a bigger purpose than merely doing benevolence work.

You are focused on Jesus and His time, I am focused on us and our time. People getting saved is a greater work, yes. But not what He was referring to. As you noted He never preached the resurrection. He says greater works then He did. The greater works are related to Him raising the dead, giving sight to the blind and feeding 5000. IE Meeting needs. So imho it is referring to giving sight to many blind, raising many dead, feeding many hungry bellies, helping many people's unbelief. All these are what the gifts of the Holy Spirit are aimed at.

Moreover, I think it is a bit overstated to call a person of faith who is trying to be faithful to the Bible a worker of magic. Magic generally entails the consulting of false gods and spirits. I am not comfortable calling someone who is a misguided believer a worker of magic. I think we have all been misguided (and likely still are in many areas) and God sees the heart. Remember, we will be measured by the measure we use.

I don't know. Matt 7:22 says they will not be in heaven. Matt 16:4 says they are wicked and adulterous. Common sense grasps egos and vanity.

To me it is satanism in the church. Twisting the message on faith 100%. Commanding sickness to leave in your name because you have the gift / power. It is going from worse to worse. Stan and company may be from the old school of thought on this / less guity, but it does not matter as the seeds of error they sowing / sowed have caused the insanity in prosperity and healing churches we see today.

A heart after God's will NOT tempt God. If anyone goes to a meeting looking for a sign or thinks they have power to create a sign, they are on par with Simon the sorcerer. How are they not? Simon was not that evil / meant well on some level I am sure. Yet was harshly rebuked.

No, KingJ. A miracle, by definition, does not include everyday events (no matter how inspiring or profound). Remember, "miracle" as it is used in the Bible had nothing to do with "scientific laws." The word miracle implies "supernatural" acts...thus acts that go beyond what is natural, normal or a regular occurrence in daily life. In the Greek, the word often translated as "miracle" or "miraculous powers" is dunamis. The word means "powers" and implies the ability to do the impossible. When we start mixing the word "miracle" with common, daily events (no matter how profound) then we end up diluting the words and statements of the Bible.

I can accept that. It just means I need to better explain the difference between a miracle and a sign.

 

[Wormwood]

You are focused on Jesus and His time, I am focused on us and our time. People getting saved is a greater work, yes. But not what He was referring to. As you noted He never preached the resurrection. He says greater works then He did.

Yes, Jesus preached and we preach. Our preaching has the capacity to bring forgiveness of sins and everlasting righteousness through faith in Jesus. We both preach but ours has greater impact because of the work of the Spirit and the Gospel that is now possible by the cross and resurrection.

I don't know. Matt 7:22 says they will not be in heaven. Matt 16:4 says they are wicked and adulterous. Common sense grasps egos and vanity.

You are implying that all charismatics are vain, wicked and have no relationship with the Lord. I would not make such a judgment based on the issue of tongues. Seems incredibly harsh. I know some charismatics who have amazing hearts and a deep and profound love for Jesus.

Commanding sickness to leave in your name because you have the gift / power.

It is clear that the NT church had gifts that empowered them to do these very things. I dont think it is satanic to believe that the Spirit in us would empower us to do like things...especially since there is no clear teaching in the NT to suggest these things would not continue on. My point is simply that we shouldnt play guessing games with the gifts of God or speaking "thus sayeth the Lord." But I do not fault charismatics for their interpretation of the Scriptures that indicates that God gave these gifts and could continue to do so. I dont think you should either. I only fault them for saying that the way we receive them is by being coached in them or just doing something and then saying that because you have faith God is really doing it...then it must be God.

It just means I need to better explain the difference between a miracle and a sign.

Yes, I think this would be helpful and maybe help our charismatic brothers understand what you are trying to say a little better. Although in Scripture, signs, miracles and wonders often go together and speak of the same category of acts.

 

[KingJ]

Well, my take on the "mustard seed" is that Jesus was encouraging his disciples, not scoffing at them. His statement is calling them to have faith "as a mustard seed" (not "as small as" as some translations render it). The point here is that if you take the tiny faith you have and put it to work, God can turn it into something great. The point was to encourage them to live by faith and trust God to do big things with their small faith, rather than to get them to grit their teeth and conjure up more faith. At least that is my take on the situation.

There is truth to your view. I will not disagree. I am discussing though with the teaching of the healing and prosperity message in mind.

IE You must build your faith. Muster it up. You have not because you have not got enough faith. Peter sank because he had fear / not enough faith. Job had hell hit him because he had fear / not enough faith.

So all this OT teaching on faith is applied to us, Christians. When Christians have solid faith. That little qualitative faith you speak of, we have.

Hence there is no reason in the universe that a Christian not be able to operate in the gifts of the spirit. Meaning if a Christian is not able to, since God is impartial Acts 10:34, no Christian is able to. IE If you cannot pray in tongues after truthful attempts to do so, nobody can. Unless you are not a Christian.

Now that is what they all imply. Discuss long enough with any of ''them'' and it ends with that line. You are not a Christian. As I said, Satanism in the church. Your Christianity is discerned by your ability to do magic... walk on water / make the dead rise / make paraplegics stand.

They do not grasp that Peter would NOT have sunk after He knew who Jesus was / His faith was made whole Matt 16:16-17. He was now able to dance on water, but better grasped the evil in tempting God. Grasped that he needs to pray ''your will be done''....no matter what it is. As Job experienced. Job was the greatest man of faith in the bible imho. Stan I am sure will disagree 100% with me on that.

In fact that is the acid test on the subject of faith. Was Job a great man of faith when he was going through hell. Yes or No.

 

[Wormwood]

Hence there is no reason in the universe that a Christian not be able to operate in the gifts of the spirit. Meaning if a Christian is not able to, since God is impartial Acts 10:34, no Christian is able to. IE If you cannot pray in tongues after truthful attempts to do so, nobody can. Unless you are not a Christian.

I disagree with this statement. The Holy Spirit gives gifts "as he will." Not all believers have all the same gifts. Thus, it is possible that I have been given the gift to teach or administrate and you have not. I do disagree with charismatics who want to argue that all Christians should be able to speak in tongues. Nothing in the NT suggest this. Rather, Paul says, "do all speak in tongues?" In the Greek, this question implies a negative response. So, the charismatics that claim that all can and should speak in tongues (if they want the filling of the Spirit), is contrary to Paul's explicit statement about tongues in 1 Cor. 12. (Not to mention that I disagree with them about what the gift of tongues actually entailed) But to me, this is an interpretation issue, not a false worship or false god issue. Thus, we can agree to disagree without calling them Satanic.

 

[StanJ]

A Christian has qualitative and quantitative. But anyway, iro the quoted passage you are wrong. Note the underlined for provoking Jesus to a rather sarcastic line. Then the italics that debunks your qualitative point. I do not disagree with your point on quality though. Its just not applicable to the point Jesus is making. Nor to what we are discussing.

17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.
19 Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”
20 He replied, “Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”
Jesus is teaching us that it takes little to no faith for raising someone from the dead. He is not accusing them, He is teaching them. Though the underlined spells extreme frustration. Now apply this to your own beliefs on....wanting to see someone jump out a wheel chair. Imagine what Jesus would say to you.

You see what you are KJ. As sarcasm would be sin and Jesus never sinned... you figure it out. I don't have time for incoherency.
You don't even understand why Jesus use mustard seed so why should I bother trying to explain it to you question mark by this time in your life you should understand the fact that you don't is your problem.

 

[StanJ]

I don't know what you find so confusing. You believe Christians can do magic, I don't. That's it.

What I do believe is that you are incapable of understanding what the Bible clearly teaches, nor are you capable of learning.
The only person on this thread that is fascinated by Magic is you, and the Bible clearly teaches us what happens with people that are fascinated by Magic.

 

[KingJ]

1. Yes, Jesus preached and we preach. Our preaching has the capacity to bring forgiveness of sins and everlasting righteousness through faith in Jesus. We both preach but ours has greater impact because of the work of the Spirit and the Gospel that is now possible by the cross and resurrection.


2. You are implying that all charismatics are vain, wicked and have no relationship with the Lord. I would not make such a judgment based on the issue of tongues. Seems incredibly harsh. I know some charismatics who have amazing hearts and a deep and profound love for Jesus.


3. It is clear that the NT church had gifts that empowered them to do these very things. I dont think it is satanic to believe that the Spirit in us would empower us to do like things...especially since there is no clear teaching in the NT to suggest these things would not continue on. My point is simply that we shouldnt play guessing games with the gifts of God or speaking "thus sayeth the Lord." But I do not fault charismatics for their interpretation of the Scriptures that indicates that God gave these gifts and could continue to do so. I dont think you should either. I only fault them for saying that the way we receive them is by being coached in them or just doing something and then saying that because you have faith God is really doing it...then it must be God.


4. Yes, I think this would be helpful and maybe help our charismatic brothers understand what you are trying to say a little better. Although in Scripture, signs, miracles and wonders often go together and speak of the same category of acts.

1. I don't believe ours has greater impact. Jesus drew people to Him just as the Holy Spirit in us does. It would be on par. The issue though is that Jesus says ''greater works''. Conversions is greater but it is not what He was referring too.

2.The teaching is very satanic. Elevate self VS thy will be done. Leave the lusts of the flesh and world behind by pursuing the lusts of the flesh and world. Discriminate those who can't do magic. I am sure many charismatics are good. It is those who are teachers teaching this tripe / who should know better that I can will agree with your assessment of me on.

3. I have never said miracles will not continue nor take place today. I am purely against those who think they have a gift at their disposal. Those who teach all must be healed. If you are not you are not a Christian / you must have sin. All those who can't grasp Matt 16:4.

4. I think they understand fine. I am more then meeting the definitions outside of the bible. Stan is grasping at straws and just creating red herrings.

 

[KingJ]

I disagree with this statement. The Holy Spirit gives gifts "as he will." Not all believers have all the same gifts. Thus, it is possible that I have been given the gift to teach or administrate and you have not. I do disagree with charismatics who want to argue that all Christians should be able to speak in tongues. Nothing in the NT suggest this. Rather, Paul says, "do all speak in tongues?" In the Greek, this question implies a negative response. So, the charismatics that claim that all can and should speak in tongues (if they want the filling of the Spirit), is contrary to Paul's explicit statement about tongues in 1 Cor. 12. (Not to mention that I disagree with them about what the gift of tongues actually entailed) But to me, this is an interpretation issue, not a false worship or false god issue. Thus, we can agree to disagree without calling them Satanic.

Lets say your child needs healing. Would God give you the gift or another to come heal him? Even if you desire the gift immensely / probably more then the guy coming to pray over your child....

 

[KingJ]

You see what you are KJ. As sarcasm would be sin and Jesus never sinned... you figure it out. I don't have time for incoherency.
You don't even understand why Jesus use mustard seed so why should I bother trying to explain it to you question mark by this time in your life you should understand the fact that you don't is your problem.

Thanks for the morning joke.

 

[KingJ]

What I do believe is that you are incapable of understanding what the Bible clearly teaches, nor are you capable of learning.
The only person on this thread that is fascinated by Magic is you, and the Bible clearly teaches us what happens with people that are fascinated by Magic.

Well I know the bible does not teach us to have vanity, pride, call others fools or seek after a sign. So perhaps you need to explain what bible you are referring too.

 

[KingJ]

Thus, it is possible that I have been given the gift to teach or administrate and you have not. I do disagree with charismatics who want to argue that all Christians should be able to speak in tongues. Nothing in the NT suggest this. .

There is no gift to teach and administrate (post # 75 lists the 9 gifts).

I do agree with them that we should all be able to operate in any / all the gifts. The bible says desire the gift and God is impartial 1+1 = 2.

Which means ( I know I am repeating myself) that if I desire a gift of healing for my kid's healing.....nobody can pray a more meaningful / powerful prayer over my kid.....then me. Unless of course I am not a Christian.

 

[StanJ]

Well I know the bible does not teach us to have vanity, pride, call others fools or seek after a sign. So perhaps you need to explain what bible you are referring too.

The one and only, that apparently you don't read.

 

[StanJ]

Thanks for the morning joke.

Sad you think the Bible and magic are a joke.

 

[OzSpen]

There is no gift to teach and administrate (post # 75 lists the 9 gifts).

KingJ,

This is not true. What does Rom 12:6-8 (ESV) teach?

Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

The 'gift' of teaching or shepherd-teacher is stated in the ministry gifts of Christ of Eph 4:11-14 (ESV):

And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

You need to go broader than 1 Corinthians to determine the breadth of the gifts given by the Trinitarian God.

There is a gift of administration. 1 Cor 12:28 tells us so. See: 'What Is The Spiritual Gift of Administration? How Do You Know If You Have It?'

Oz

 

[KingJ]

KingJ,

This is not true. What does Rom 12:6-8 (ESV) teach?

The 'gift' of teaching or shepherd-teacher is stated in the ministry gifts of Christ of Eph 4:11-14 (ESV):

You need to go broader than 1 Corinthians to determine the breadth of the gifts given by the Trinitarian God.

There is a gift of administration. 1 Cor 12:28 tells us so. See: 'What Is The Spiritual Gift of Administration? How Do You Know If You Have It?'

Oz

I am referring to the 9 ''sign' gifts of the spirit mentioned in 1 Cor 12:7-11 / post # 75.

I have no argument with the scripture you quoted. I agree, we each have different gifts in that respect.

 

[OzSpen]

I am referring to the 9 ''sign' gifts of the spirit mentioned in 1 Cor 12:7-11 / post # 75.

I have no argument with the scripture you quoted. I agree, we each have different gifts in that respect.

KingJ,

Why are you restricting to the 'sign' gifts of 1 Cor 12:7-11, especially in light of the fact that verse 7 states, 'To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good' (ESV). Then the emphasis in 1 Cor 12:12 is, 'For just as the body is one and has many members, so all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ' (ESV).

This emphasis of the body of Christ and individually members of it (1 Cor 12:27 ESV) emphasises that God has appointed in the church the 'sign' gifts as well as the gifts of helping, administrating, apostles, prophets and teachers (1 Cor 12:27-31). There is no separation of the 'sign' gifts from the not so spectacular gifts in God's view of the body of Christ as articulated in 1 Cor 12.

I find it unnecessary to want to divide the 'sign' gifts from the other gifts as they all are gifts given by our sovereign Lord as they are among 'varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit, and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone' (1 Cor 12:4-5 ESV). This last emphasis of the same Lord empowering all of the gifts in everyone as he sovereignly chooses to give those gifts, should cause us not to want to differentiate among these gifts, other than the different emphases that God himself gives as stated in Scripture.

Oz

 

[KingJ]

KingJ,

Why are you restricting to the 'sign' gifts of 1 Cor 12:7-11, especially in light of the fact that verse 7 states, 'To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good' (ESV). Then the emphasis in 1 Cor 12:12 is, 'For just as the body is one and has many members, so all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ' (ESV).

This emphasis of the body of Christ and individually members of it (1 Cor 12:27 ESV) emphasises that God has appointed in the church the 'sign' gifts as well as the gifts of helping, administrating, apostles, prophets and teachers (1 Cor 12:27-31). There is no separation of the 'sign' gifts from the not so spectacular gifts in God's view of the body of Christ as articulated in 1 Cor 12.

I find it unnecessary to want to divide the 'sign' gifts from the other gifts as they all are gifts given by our sovereign Lord as they are among 'varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit, and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone' (1 Cor 12:4-5 ESV). This last emphasis of the same Lord empowering all of the gifts in everyone as he sovereignly chooses to give those gifts, should cause us not to want to differentiate among these gifts, other than the different emphases that God himself gives as stated in Scripture.

Oz

I do not disagree with what you have said here. Its just that the sign gifts are what cessationism / this thread's direction is all about.

Paul says he wishes that we all pray in tongues. But it is better if we desire to prophecy. Keyword '''desire'''. Gifts are hence based on His sovereignty, our desire and most importantly, us having His ear John 9:31. So as I said in my prior post, who among us would not desire one or more of the 'sign' gifts?

I am also starting to think that perhaps I have just had a run in with the worst charismatics in my past. Now blanketing too many and harshly.

If I heard you admit that Curry Blake takes things too far and that Job was a shining example of faith, I would re-read every post from you ten times ^_^.

 

[OzSpen]

I do not disagree with what you have said here. Its just that the sign gifts are what cessationism / this thread's direction is all about.

Paul says he wishes that we all pray in tongues. But it is better if we desire to prophecy. Keyword '''desire'''. Gifts are hence based on His sovereignty, our desire and most importantly, us having His ear John 9:31. So as I said in my prior post, who among us would not desire one or more of the 'sign' gifts?

I am also starting to think that perhaps I have just had a run in with the worst charismatics in my past. Now blanketing too many and harshly.

If I heard you admit that Curry Blake takes things too far and that Job was a shining example of faith, I would re-read every post from you ten times ^_^.

I have never ever heard of Curry Blake so I could not speak of his taking things too far. Only a Google search after you mentioned the name gave me information about him, but since I don't know the nature and content of his ministry I cannot comment. I'll leave that for others who are familiar with your claim that Curry Blake takes things too far.

However, I've written about extremists and those promoting false doctrine in charismatic ranks in:

The Rhema Barb and Its Poison: The Rhema vs. Logos Controversy

Double faults and not aces: Margaret Court

The fake and the genuine mixed in some churches: A dangerous concoction!

Are the dead raised today? Biblical questions concerning Pastor Ekechukwu's resurrection in Nigeria, 2001

A Victoria Osteen big-time blooper

Charismatic chaos in a Brisbane house church

I have no time for those who promote false doctrine (including extremism), whether they be charismatic or non-charismatic. If it disagrees with Scripture, I'll do my best to expose it.

Of course Job was a shining example of faith, but he's not the only one in Scripture who is such a preeminent example. We have an extensive list of God's faith heroes in Hebrews 11.

Oz

 

[KingJ]

I have never ever heard of Curry Blake so I could not speak of his taking things too far. Only a Google search after you mentioned the name gave me information about him, but since I don't know the nature and content of his ministry I cannot comment. I'll leave that for others who are familiar with your claim that Curry Blake takes things too far.

However, I've written about extremists and those promoting false doctrine in charismatic ranks in:

The Rhema Barb and Its Poison: The Rhema vs. Logos Controversy

Double faults and not aces: Margaret Court

The fake and the genuine mixed in some churches: A dangerous concoction!

Are the dead raised today? Biblical questions concerning Pastor Ekechukwu's resurrection in Nigeria, 2001

A Victoria Osteen big-time blooper

Charismatic chaos in a Brisbane house church

I have no time for those who promote false doctrine (including extremism), whether they be charismatic or non-charismatic. If it disagrees with Scripture, I'll do my best to expose it.

Of course Job was a shining example of faith, but he's not the only one in Scripture who is such a preeminent example. We have an extensive list of God's faith heroes in Hebrews 11.

Oz

Are you Spencer? Wow Oz, I read each one. These articles are 10/10.

 

[OzSpen]

Are you Spencer? Wow Oz, I read each one. These articles are 10/10.

Yes, I am Spencer. That's where the Spen of OzSpen comes from.