Does the Church still possess miraculous gifts today?

[Butch5]

Butch,

You are giving us a fairly standard cessationist argument, but you seem to miss a very important verse in 1 Cor 13:8-12 (ESV) that helps to unlock when these gifts will cease:

Paul dares to tell us when the gifts will cease and they are not in the time frame you want us to believe. The partial knowledge of tongues, knowledge and the other gifts will pass away when we no longer have need for them, i.e. when we are 'face to face' with God Himself. Until then, the gifts will continue.

I do wish your exegesis would have taken this crucial factor into account. It did not.

I agree that the Greek telos (perfect) in 1 Cor 13:10, which means the 'end', refers to full-grown, mature . It's the same word as used in 1 Cor 2:6 (ESV), 'For among the mature [teleiois] we do impart wisdom'.

Oz

Oz,

I didn't miss that. It's simply and explanation. Paul didn't say anything at all about being face to face with God. He compares seeing through a glass darkly with seeing face to face. When one looks through a dark glass things are not always clear. Some thing may be distorted. However, when one see someone face to face there is no distortion they can see clearly. The point he makes is that while prophecy and knowledge are in part some things are no clear. He may not have all of the answers. He goes on to use another example.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Cor. 13:1 KJV)

The two words translated know are different. The first "know" is ginosko and it means to know. The second "Know" is epiginosko and it means to fully know or be full acquainted with. Paul says that he knows in part but when the completion comes he will know fully. There's nothing here about seeing God. He uses three examples of something that goes from a partial state to a mature state.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

I didn't miss that. It's simply and explanation. Paul didn't say anything at all about being face to face with God. He compares seeing through a glass darkly with seeing face to face. When one looks through a dark glass things are not always clear. Some thing may be distorted. However, when one see someone face to face there is no distortion they can see clearly. The point he makes is that while prophecy and knowledge are in part some things are no clear. He may not have all of the answers. He goes on to use another example.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. (1 Cor. 13:1 KJV)

The two words translated know are different. The first "know" is ginosko and it means to know. The second "Know" is epiginosko and it means to fully know or be full acquainted with. Paul says that he knows in part but when the completion comes he will know fully. There's nothing here about seeing God. He uses three examples of something that goes from a partial state to a mature state.

Butch,

I read and teach NT Greek so I know Greek well, including the difference between ginosko and epiginosko. You still have not dealt with the meaning of 'face to face' in 1 Cor 13:12 (ESV).

Verse 12's literal reading is, 'For we see at the present time [arti] through a mirror, in a looking-glass [en ainigmati], but then face to face'. We need to remember that Corinth had one of the best-known reputations for the production of some of the finest bronze mirrors in antiquity (see Corinth, A Brief History of the City and a Guide to the Excavations, American School of Classical Studies in Athens, 1972:5).

When the perfect comes, it is most likely referring to God's way of knowing us not in some mirror darkly but with his full and direct knowledge, face-to-face at the Eschaton. Paul seems to be inferring in this passage that believers shall know in this way also. They will then have no need for the mirror illustrations of prophecy, the word of knowledge, tongues & interpretation, etc., because we will be in the presence of God himself and his full knowledge.

Until then, at Christ's second coming, the full range of the gifts of the Spirit are needed, but 'especially the gift of prophecy' (1 Cor 14:1 NIV).

Oz

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

I read and teach NT Greek so I know Greek well, including the difference between ginosko and epiginosko. You still have not dealt with the meaning of 'face to face' in 1 Cor 13:12 (ESV).

Verse 12's literal reading is, 'For we see at the present time [arti] through a mirror, in a looking-glass [en ainigmati], but then face to face'. We need to remember that Corinth had one of the best-known reputations for the production of some of the finest bronze mirrors in antiquity (see Corinth, A Brief History of the City and a Guide to the Excavations, American School of Classical Studies in Athens, 1972:5).

When the perfect comes, it is most likely referring to God's way of knowing us not in some mirror darkly but with his full and direct knowledge, face-to-face at the Eschaton. Paul seems to be inferring in this passage that believers shall know in this way also. They will then have no need for the mirror illustrations of prophecy, the word of knowledge, tongues & interpretation, etc., because we will be in the presence of God himself and his full knowledge.

Until then, at Christ's second coming, the full range of the gifts of the Spirit are needed, but 'especially the gift of prophecy' (1 Cor 14:1 NIV).

Oz

Oz,

I did deal with the passage. You're just imposing you view on Scripture. Paul says nothing about seeing God face to face. The statement about seeing face to face is in contrast to seeing through a glass darkly. Now this, then that. You're drawing inferences from the passage.

Your interpretation also runs afoul of the historical evidence. several writers after the apostles speak of the gifts waning.

Likewise it runs afoul of what Jude wrote, that faith was once delivered to the saints. Once the faith is complete there is no need for prophecy. If you read the article I wrote there's a lot more information.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

I did deal with the passage. You're just imposing you view on Scripture. Paul says nothing about seeing God face to face. The statement about seeing face to face is in contrast to seeing through a glass darkly. Now this, then that. You're drawing inferences from the passage.

Your interpretation also runs afoul of the historical evidence. several writers after the apostles speak of the gifts waning.

Likewise it runs afoul of what Jude wrote, that faith was once delivered to the saints. Once the faith is complete there is no need for prophecy. If you read the article I wrote there's a lot more information.

Butch,

With respect, I'm imposing NOTHING on the passage. If the passage didn't state it or infer it, I would not be stating it. You still leave me guessing. whom I will I be seeing face to face. Will I be seeing myself in my own mirror? That would be eisegesis.

Some of the ECF (early church fathers) did speak of a waning of the gifts (e.g. Origen), but that is not surprising after the explosion of the Spirit into the world at the beginning of the church. Tertullian (ca 155-240), a Montanist wand ECF, certainly did not consider that the spiritual gifts were waning. So my interpretation does not run fowl of the historical evidence OR the exegetical evidence in the Greek NT text.

Grant Jeffrey has written an excellent article providing some historical details from the ECF that demonstrate the continuation of the gifts through to the 7th century. See: http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/mystery.htm.

I also have written on St Augustine's (died 5th century) renewed interest in the gift of healings in my articles:

• Augustine’s last illness: A divine healing encounter

• St. Augustine: The leading Church Father who dared to change his mind about divine healing

A version of this latter article was published in the Pentecostal Evangel and Charisma. It's too late to tell me that the gifts of the Spirit waned and disappeared. I've done my historical investigation and found your assertions to be invalid.

Could your cessationism be a hindrance to a careful assessment of the historical data?

Your claim is: 'Likewise it runs afoul of what Jude wrote, that faith was once delivered to the saints. Once the faith is complete there is no need for prophecy'. This is your invention of applying what Jude wrote to what I stated. Besides, I think you should get a better handle on what NT prophecy as a gift of the Spirit is. It is NOT like OT prophecy by OT prophets. See Wayne Grudem's excellent exposition in The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (YouTube). Also available in print from Crossway (2000).

Oz

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

With respect, I'm imposing NOTHING on the passage. If the passage didn't state it or infer it, I would not be stating it. You still leave me guessing. whom I will I be seeing face to face. Will I be seeing myself in my own mirror? That would be eisegesis.

Some of the ECF (early church fathers) did speak of a waning of the gifts (e.g. Origen), but that is not surprising after the explosion of the Spirit into the world at the beginning of the church. Tertullian (ca 155-240), a Montanist wand ECF, certainly did not consider that the spiritual gifts were waning. So my interpretation does not run fowl of the historical evidence OR the exegetical evidence in the Greek NT text.

Grant Jeffrey has written an excellent article providing some historical details from the ECF that demonstrate the continuation of the gifts through to the 7th century. See: http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/mystery.htm.

I also have written on St Augustine's (died 5th century) renewed interest in the gift of healings in my articles:

• Augustine’s last illness: A divine healing encounter

• St. Augustine: The leading Church Father who dared to change his mind about divine healing

A version of this latter article was published in the Pentecostal Evangel and Charisma. It's too late to tell me that the gifts of the Spirit waned and disappeared. I've done my historical investigation and found your assertions to be invalid.

Could your cessationism be a hindrance to a careful assessment of the historical data?

Your claim is: 'Likewise it runs afoul of what Jude wrote, that faith was once delivered to the saints. Once the faith is complete there is no need for prophecy'. This is your invention of applying what Jude wrote to what I stated. Besides, I think you should get a better handle on what NT prophecy as a gift of the Spirit is. It is NOT like OT prophecy by OT prophets. See Wayne Grudem's excellent exposition in The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (YouTube). Also available in print from Crossway (2000).

Oz

Oz,

You are . Paul says nothing about seeing God face to face. Nothing! That's simply something you added to your interpretation of the passage. You're not going to see anyone face to face, just like you're not looking into a mirror. The statement is a comparison, an example.

You said you teach Greek. Then you should be aware that "τὸ τέλειον" is in the neuter gender, thus it is not speaking of Christ. Thus, Paul's example is not seeing God or Christ face to face.

Regarding the ECF's I don't need to read modern authors I can read the ECF's myself. It's reading these modern authors that has brought so much error into the faith.

You said, OT prophecy isn't like NT prophecy. How do you know that? Were you there? Or, did you read one of the modern authors?

Do you know what the purpose of those miraculous gifts was?

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

You are . Paul says nothing about seeing God face to face. Nothing! That's simply something you added to your interpretation of the passage. You're not going to see anyone face to face, just like you're not looking into a mirror. The statement is a comparison, an example.

You said you teach Greek. Then you should be aware that "τὸ τέλειον" is in the neuter gender, thus it is not speaking of Christ. Thus, Paul's example is not seeing God or Christ face to face.

Regarding the ECF's I don't need to read modern authors I can read the ECF's myself. It's reading these modern authors that has brought so much error into the faith.

You said, OT prophecy isn't like NT prophecy. How do you know that? Were you there? Or, did you read one of the modern authors?

Do you know what the purpose of those miraculous gifts was?

Butch,

So face to face is a comparison, an example, you say. What is it an example of? You seem to be missing the point.

Because τὸ τέλειον is neuter gender proves zero, nothing. Purpose or result is neuter in English also, but that doesn't mean a person doesn't have a purpose, which is a neuter object. You seem to be confusing the nature of gender in Greek and its translation into English.

Paul IS speaking of the Eschaton and face to face with whoever. That's the purpose of the ending of seeing in a mirror partly and then seeing fully, face to face.

You say that 'It's reading these modern authors that has brought so much error into the faith'. That is not a factual statement. Marcion one of the early church writers and agitators brought error into the church. So did Pelagius and Arius. I find it quite a joke that you want to blame modern authors for bringing error into the church when the ECF had more than their share of heretics and false teaching.

Gnosticism was a constant threat in the first few centuries - the heretical Gnostic doctrines - and you dare to say that the problem of false teachers is with 'modern authors'. That's utterly false. The church has had to deal with heretics throughout its history, not just in the present.

I have done my serious study of Scripture over the years to compare OT prophecy with NT prophecy to reach my conclusion. It has zero to do with whether I was there, but has everything to do with what the Scriptures reveal about OT and NT prophecy and my being a careful exegete. All of us have to be aware of how we can impose our beliefs on a text. That is an issue for both you and me.

I have made some meagre attempts to put that material online, including this article:

• The gift of prophecy as non-binding revelation

• Are Miracles Valuable?

• Spiritual gifts sign of Christian maturity

You ask: 'Do you know what the purpose of those miraculous gifts was?' I certainly do. First Corinthians 14:12 (ESV) speaks clearly of the purpose of the gifts: 'So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church'.

Edification of the church - the people of God - is God's purpose. That's Bible! And do you know what? There is an absolute need for the church to be edified until Jesus returns. That's why the cessationist position is vacuous. It wants that edification from the gifts to be eliminated. That's not God's view. We need that edification until the Eschaton. Extremism is no reason to reject the gifts. The key is correction of extremist error, but extremism can be experienced in both cessationism and continuationism.

Oz

 

[Butch5]

Butch,

So face to face is a comparison, an example, you say. What is it an example of? You seem to be missing the point.

Because τὸ τέλειον is neuter gender proves zero, nothing. Purpose or result is neuter in English also, but that doesn't mean a person doesn't have a purpose, which is a neuter object. You seem to be confusing the nature of gender in Greek and its translation into English.

Paul IS speaking of the Eschaton and face to face with whoever. That's the purpose of the ending of seeing in a mirror partly and then seeing fully, face to face.

You say that 'It's reading these modern authors that has brought so much error into the faith'. That is not a factual statement. Marcion one of the early church writers and agitators brought error into the church. So did Pelagius and Arius. I find it quite a joke that you want to blame modern authors for bringing error into the church when the ECF had more than their share of heretics and false teaching.

Gnosticism was a constant threat in the first few centuries - the heretical Gnostic doctrines - and you dare to say that the problem of false teachers is with 'modern authors'. That's utterly false. The church has had to deal with heretics throughout its history, not just in the present.

I have done my serious study of Scripture over the years to compare OT prophecy with NT prophecy to reach my conclusion. It has zero to do with whether I was there, but has everything to do with what the Scriptures reveal about OT and NT prophecy and my being a careful exegete. All of us have to be aware of how we can impose our beliefs on a text. That is an issue for both you and me.

I have made some meagre attempts to put that material online, including this article:

• The gift of prophecy as non-binding revelation

• Are Miracles Valuable?

• Spiritual gifts sign of Christian maturity

You ask: 'Do you know what the purpose of those miraculous gifts was?' I certainly do. First Corinthians 14:12 (ESV) speaks clearly of the purpose of the gifts: 'So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church'.

Edification of the church - the people of God - is God's purpose. That's Bible! And do you know what? There is an absolute need for the church to be edified until Jesus returns. That's why the cessationist position is vacuous. It wants that edification from the gifts to be eliminated. That's not God's view. We need that edification until the Eschaton. Extremism is no reason to reject the gifts. The key is correction of extremist error, but extremism can be experienced in both cessationism and continuationism.

Oz

Oz,

It's obvious to me that you have a lot invested in your view and it would be too costly to consider something else. I think anyone reading 1 Cor 13 can easily see that Paul compares, In part, and maturity with, I was a child and now a man, I see though a glass darkly but then face to face, now I know but then I will fully know. They are all examples of something coming to maturity just like he said of prophecies and knowledge. I think anyone without a position to defend can see that.

Regarding the false teachers, the Gnostics were not Christians so there is no comparison there. Marcion was not a Christian. Yes, the church has always fought false teachings, but in beginning it was from without. Ever since the time of Constantine things have been going awry. Also, some of the wrong commentators are simply in error, probably not intentional, they simply have a theological bias.

Regarding the purpose of the gifts, it isn't to edify the church, that's not why they were given. Edification may be a result of the gifts, but it's not there purpose. The purpose of the gifts was to validate the message of the apostles.

12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. (Isa. 8:12-18 KJV)


9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. (Isa. 28:9-14 KJV)


15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(Mk. 16:15-1:1 KJV)


3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 KJV)


The purpose of the gifts was to confirm the words of the apostles. If someone came and said, believe in this man who was raised up from the dead, a lot of people aren't going to pay much attention to them. However, if they first give sight to the blind, heal the lame, or raise the dead, then people are going to pay attention.

Also, Paul states plainly that tongues was a sign to unbelievers, not Christians. That fits perfectly with what we find in Isaiah. Paul alludes to this in 1 Cor. 14. He says in the Law it is written. That's Isaiah 28. In that chapter it explicitly states that God would speak to this people, which is Israel, which stammering lips and another tongue. The gifts are fulfilled prophecy.

Since the purpose of the gifts is to confirm the word and you claim they are still active today and most every church teaches some wrong doctrines, whose word is being confirmed? After all, the apostles are the only one who had the untainted Gospel.

Also, a look at the Scriptures will reveal that the only mention of signs and wonders (other than the two witnesses) in the end times is a warning to watch for lying signs and wonders.

Another question I would ask is how does one receive these gifts today if they are still active. In the NT they were given by the apostles. The ability to bestow the gifts was "the sign of an apostle"


11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor. 12:11-12 KJV)

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

It's obvious to me that you have a lot invested in your view and it would be too costly to consider something else. I think anyone reading 1 Cor 13 can easily see that Paul compares, In part, and maturity with, I was a child and now a man, I see though a glass darkly but then face to face, now I know but then I will fully know. They are all examples of something coming to maturity just like he said of prophecies and knowledge. I think anyone without a position to defend can see that.

Regarding the false teachers, the Gnostics were not Christians so there is no comparison there. Marcion was not a Christian. Yes, the church has always fought false teachings, but in beginning it was from without. Ever since the time of Constantine things have been going awry. Also, some of the wrong commentators are simply in error, probably not intentional, they simply have a theological bias.

Regarding the purpose of the gifts, it isn't to edify the church, that's not why they were given. Edification may be a result of the gifts, but it's not there purpose. The purpose of the gifts was to validate the message of the apostles.

12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. (Isa. 8:12-18 KJV)


9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. (Isa. 28:9-14 KJV)


15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(Mk. 16:15-1:1 KJV)


3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 KJV)


The purpose of the gifts was to confirm the words of the apostles. If someone came and said, believe in this man who was raised up from the dead, a lot of people aren't going to pay much attention to them. However, if they first give sight to the blind, heal the lame, or raise the dead, then people are going to pay attention.

Also, Paul states plainly that tongues was a sign to unbelievers, not Christians. That fits perfectly with what we find in Isaiah. Paul alludes to this in 1 Cor. 14. He says in the Law it is written. That's Isaiah 28. In that chapter it explicitly states that God would speak to this people, which is Israel, which stammering lips and another tongue. The gifts are fulfilled prophecy.

Since the purpose of the gifts is to confirm the word and you claim they are still active today and most every church teaches some wrong doctrines, whose word is being confirmed? After all, the apostles are the only one who had the untainted Gospel.

Also, a look at the Scriptures will reveal that the only mention of signs and wonders (other than the two witnesses) in the end times is a warning to watch for lying signs and wonders.

Another question I would ask is how does one receive these gifts today if they are still active. In the NT they were given by the apostles. The ability to bestow the gifts was "the sign of an apostle"


11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor. 12:11-12 KJV)

I have nothing invested in my view except for careful exegesis of Scripture.

I provided you with a biblical example of the purpose of the gifts (i.e. edification of the church) and you reject it. You have directly rejected what Scripture says.

You say: 'Ever since the time of Constantine things have been going awry'. False teaching was happening LONG BEFORE Constantine and I've given you examples with the Gnostics, Marcion, Arius, etc. You aren't listening to the historical evidence.

The passage you quoted from Mark 16:15ff is not in the oldest NT MSS, so it is not considered to be part of the NT. You are relying on additions to the NT Greek that are late. Mark 16:9ff has been ADDED much later than the oldest MSS. For you to rely on this section of Mark 16 demonstrates that you have a predetermined agenda.

Quoting from Isaiah is an irrelevant way to deal with the NT gifts of the Spirit and their purpose.

Bye, bye, opcorn:
Oz

 

[Jun2u]

1 CORINTHIANS 12: 7 - 11 reads:

But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.


To understand the passage above we have to let the Bible define its own terms.

WISDOM - The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. To depart from evil is the fear of the Lord. So the beginning of wisdom is to depart from the word. When we become saved and the Lord first begin to open our eyes we have the word of wisdom and that applies to anyone who has become a child of God and that's true today.

KNOWLEDGE - to another the word knowledge by the same same Spirit. The knowledge again is the knowledge of the will of God in our lives, and that would be a gift that is given to every believer. To some degree we have the word of knowledge, that is it is the characteristics of the believer and this is still true today.

FAITH - Today God is still giving saving faith to those who do become believers and unless that faith is given to us by God we will never believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and so this gift by the holy spirit is still available to the church today.

HEALING - this word healing that is used in 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 is the Greek word "ayaomai" and "therapuel" ( can't say it let alone spell it)". "therapuel" however deals only with physical illness while "ayaomai" can both deal with physical or spiritual illnesses. When studying the Bible we find that it is not God's intention to engage in physical healing rather the church has been given the task to engage in the healing of sin-sicked souls to those who are under the power of Satan. By his stripes we are healed for we were wondering as sheep and so on, as we read in Isaiah 53. So anyone who has become saved is given the gift of healing of sin-sicked souls by sharing the Gospel with others that they might become healed of their sins, and that gift still remains today. Now there's no account anywhere in the Bible where any believer who became saved after Pentecost outside of the Apostles who have special abilities to do signs and wonders. We don't read of a single believer who ever healed someone else of a physical illness. That was not a gift put in the New Testament Church or the Old Testament Church at all for that matter. Although in the Old Testament Church the 70 were able to and the apostles but outside of these we don't read any other person who engaged in physical healing of someone else. That's not the work of the church to engage in physical healing but spiritual healing and that is still going on today.

MIRACLES - there are three Greek words that God uses that have to do with miracles. The first two are normally translated signs and wonders "simeon" and "teras". We read of the Lord Jesus Christ did signs and wonders as He multiplied the loaves and the fishes, as He walked on water, as He healed the blind man, as He raised the dead, and so on. We read of the Apostles doing the same kinds of miracles Jesus did and we read of Satan near the end of time doing signs and wonders through his false prophets and false Christs.

But the words "simeon" and "teras" is not found in 1 Corinthians 12 or 1 Corinthians 14, it is not found anywhere. But what word is this? It is the word "dunamis". The word "dunamis" normally is translated "power" it is the power of the Gospel and we find it dramatically in Acts 1:8. “You will receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you and you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem and in all Judea and in Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth”. The Bible also speaks of the power of Jesus' resurrection. In other words, it is the power to see people saved or to see the power (the working of power) of the Gospel to save people. This again is a gift given to every believer up to the present day. When we are saved we are mandated by God to share the gospel and the gospel has the power to save people and that's the word that is translated miracle here.

PROPHECY - means to declare the word of God and that gift is given to every believer today. In the Old Testament and before the Bible was completed and when 1Corinthians were being written for example, the source of the word of God could either be the written word which was incomplete during those days which consisted of the Old Testament or occasionally someone would receive a direct revelation from God, in a vision, or a voice, or a tongue, as were experienced by some of the Apostles and was experienced here by the Church of Corinth then that would be their source of revelation which they would prophesy concerning. Now the gift of Prophecy is still available today because we are still mandated to go into all the world with the gospel but our source is now the Bible alone because the Bible has been completed and we have a much bigger source then they had in the Church of Corinth, and God warns that we are not to add to the words of this book. Now that we have the gift of prophecy which every believer does have, the only place we can look for what to prophesy is the Bible.

DISCERNING OF SPIRITS - we still have that gift today to discern whether a gospel is true or not by checking out what its authority is. If its authority is wider or narrower from the Bible alone and in its entirety we know it is another gospel if they are under the power of another spirit than the Holy Spirit.

TONGUES - then the kinds of tongues and interpretation that ended when the Bible was completed because that had to do with receiving additional revelation from God and interpreting that.

To God Be The Glory

 

[mjrhealth]

I could post 1 Cor. 13. It's pretty clear, prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will cease.

No still around today. remember the posts about the mind. hard to convince one of something that is true when they already have convinced themselves it is not. Prophecy is coming to an end, because God has already told mankind what is to befall us, but still many dont , wont lisen to the true prophets of God, nor will they themselves go to God but insist on keeping everyone else from Him.

This bit

Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

 

[Jun2u]

Jun2u,

You can read about it at Codex Sinaiticus. After you've read that information, then please tell us of its importance to understanding the New Testament.

Oz

Oz,

Finally I had the chance to read Codex Sinaiticus as you've suggested but had to quit after reading the part that said 'Mark 16:9-20 were written but was erased'. You did read that part did you not?

This is the reason I don't read commentaries by many scholars because their work at best is still tainted by sin. I've always believed that the words written in the Bible alone were NOT added upon or subtracted from the original manuscripts otherwise, what is the point to insert the warning God imposed in Revelation 22:18-19?. It is not only the hallmark of a child of God to “accept” and “obey” the scriptures to be true but because holy men of old spoke as God the Holy Spirit moved them.

Again, I say, if it is your desire to accept the work of men then it is your prerogative to do so. I will not fault you for that.

BTW, have you read my post #169 above which is a commentary regarding the topic of this thread?
Please do if you have not.

To God Be The Glory

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

Finally I had the chance to read Codex Sinaiticus as you've suggested but had to quit after reading the part that said 'Mark 16:9-20 were written but was erased'. You did read that part did you not?

This is the reason I don't read commentaries by many scholars because their work at best is still tainted by sin. I've always believed that the words written in the Bible alone were NOT added upon or subtracted from the original manuscripts otherwise, what is the point to insert the warning God imposed in Revelation 22:18-19?. It is not only the hallmark of a child of God to “accept” and “obey” the scriptures to be true but because holy men of old spoke as God the Holy Spirit moved them.

Again, I say, if it is your desire to accept the work of men then it is your prerogative to do so. I will not fault you for that.

BTW, have you read my post #169 above which is a commentary regarding the topic of this thread?
Please do if you have not.

To God Be The Glory

Jun,

Don't you understand the inconsistencies and contradictions in what you have written here:

• Mark 16:9-20 is not in Sinaiticus, a very early codex MSS of the NT. That is long before any MSS used by Erasmus for the Textus Receptus (TR), that was used by the KJV translators. You don't seem to get it that it was the KJV (because of Erasmus's TR) that ADDED TO the Greek text.
• You don't read some commentaries because 'their work at best is still tainted by sin'. I've got news for you. ALL commentaries are written by imperfect people whose lives are tainted by original sin. And that includes you and me as readers. Why don't you admit that you don't read certain commentaries because your presuppositions intrude so you are unable to accept what they write?
• You state, 'I've always believed that the words written in the Bible alone were NOT added upon or subtracted from the original manuscripts otherwise'. Which 'Bible alone'? That in Codex Sinaiticus or that in the Textus Receptus? Your presuppositions are intruding again. Seems to me that you have hassles with being able to give an objective assessment of the MSS evidence because of your commitment to the TR and the KJV.
• 'what is the point to insert the warning God imposed in Revelation 22:18-19?' That's easy. The Book of Revelation was written as a single book that was not in the NT at the time of writing. The warning was given to the Book of Revelation only. What you fail to realise is that the KJV's insistence to use the TR is the translation that has ADDED to the Greek NT. Yes, the very claim you make against adding to Scripture is violated by the KJV translators as has been demonstrated by finding older MSS like Sinaiticus and Vaticanus since the KJV was translated. There are thousands of MSS that have been found that are older than the TR, so they demonstrate that the TR is the one that has added to Scripture or changed it. You don't want to accept this because it exposes the flawed view of TR and KJV promoters.
• I read your post #169 but it is simply a regurgitation of cessationist arguments that I do not find convincing as an exegete of Scripture who reads and teaches NT Greek. You are pushing a view that is loaded with your cessationist presuppositions. I don't think you are ready to put those presuppositions aside so that you can do an objective exegesis of the text.

Oz

 

[Butch5]

I have nothing invested in my view except for careful exegesis of Scripture.

I provided you with a biblical example of the purpose of the gifts (i.e. edification of the church) and you reject it. You have directly rejected what Scripture says.

You say: 'Ever since the time of Constantine things have been going awry'. False teaching was happening LONG BEFORE Constantine and I've given you examples with the Gnostics, Marcion, Arius, etc. You aren't listening to the historical evidence.

The passage you quoted from Mark 16:15ff is not in the oldest NT MSS, so it is not considered to be part of the NT. You are relying on additions to the NT Greek that are late. Mark 16:9ff has been ADDED much later than the oldest MSS. For you to rely on this section of Mark 16 demonstrates that you have a predetermined agenda.

Quoting from Isaiah is an irrelevant way to deal with the NT gifts of the Spirit and their purpose.

Bye, bye, opcorn:
Oz

OZ---I have nothing invested in my view except for careful exegesis of Scripture.

I believe in another thread you said you had several degrees. If so those degrees cost money didn't they? You said yo teach NT Greek. If that's in a school, most schools require one to hold certain views.

OZ---I provided you with a biblical example of the purpose of the gifts (i.e. edification of the church) and you reject it. You have directly rejected what Scripture says.

There is a difference between purpose and result. If I throw a ball to my friend the purpose is for him to catch it. If he misses it and it breaks a window that is a result, not a purpose. I didn't throw the ball with the purpose of breaking the window. Likewise the gifts were given for signs and wonders in Israel as Isaiah states. They were conformation of the apostles message. That was their purpose. Did they edify the church? Yes, that was a result of the gifts. However, God didn't give the gifts simple so Christians could feel good.

Oz---You say: 'Ever since the time of Constantine things have been going awry'. False teaching was happening LONG BEFORE Constantine and I've given you examples with the Gnostics, Marcion, Arius, etc. You aren't listening to the historical evidence.

Yes, you've given examples of Non Christians. I'm talking about false teaching within the Church. I'm talking about Christian leaders teaching false doctrine, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

OZ---The passage you quoted from Mark 16:15ff is not in the oldest NT MSS, so it is not considered to be part of the NT. You are relying on additions to the NT Greek that are late. Mark 16:9ff has been ADDED much later than the oldest MSS. For you to rely on this section of Mark 16 demonstrates that you have a predetermined agenda.

No, you just need to do some more research. While the passage isn't in Sinaiticus It is quoted by earlier ECF's which proves that it is not a later addition. It was around before Sinaiticus. Irenaeus quotes Mark 16:19 and he wrote around 180 A.D. that was long before Sanaiticus.
From looking at history it seems to me more likely that it was removed from Sinaitcus. Sinaiticus is an Alexandrian manuscript and Alexandria was known as a hotbed for Gnosticism and the Gnostics were famous for altering the Scriptures.

Oz---Quoting from Isaiah is an irrelevant way to deal with the NT gifts of the Spirit and their purpose.

You say that and at the same time talk about careful exegesis? How is it careful exegesis to ignore passages of Scripture that don't suit your beliefs?

 

[Jun2u]

Oz,

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Do you accept and believe the scripture above to be true?

If you do then why with all the education you've had accumulated make you doubt that God never moved holy men of old to write Mark 16:9ff or the Book of Revelation? If these scriptures along with the Book of Revelation were NOT suppose to be in the Bible as you and other scholars say, would you think God will allow them to remain in the Bible?

FYI, did you know Revelation 22:18-19 is not only is a ominous warning but also to declare Jesus is God? Yes it is true! For no one can declare the plagues written therein and perform them, except God Himself!

You've asked “which Bible alone?” Well, it is the Bible alone and in its entirety is the Word of God.

I am glad I am not as smart as other people or I will probably think and think wrong like them, instead of just accepting by faith that the Bible is infallible and true.

To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

Those gifts ceased. They were given to validate the Apostles as genuinely from God.

And where does it Scriptures tell us that this is why I've ever given and that they will cease or did cease?

 

[StanJ]

I could post 1 Cor. 13. It's pretty clear, prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will cease.

Yes, that's true but only when completeness comes, as v10 states. Has completeness come?

 

[OzSpen]

Butch5,

You wrote:

I believe in another thread you said you had several degrees. If so those degrees cost money didn't they? You said yo teach NT Greek. If that's in a school, most schools require one to hold certain views.

This is false for me. I taught Greek in one denominational school but was ordained with another denomination.

There is a difference between purpose and result. If I throw a ball to my friend the purpose is for him to catch it. If he misses it and it breaks a window that is a result, not a purpose. I didn't throw the ball with the purpose of breaking the window. Likewise the gifts were given for signs and wonders in Israel as Isaiah states. They were conformation of the apostles message. That was their purpose. Did they edify the church? Yes, that was a result of the gifts. However, God didn't give the gifts simple so Christians could feel good.

This is a red herring fallacy.

Yes, you've given examples of Non Christians. I'm talking about false teaching within the Church. I'm talking about Christian leaders teaching false doctrine, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Gnostics, Marcion, Arius, etc were in the church. I'm also talking of false teachers in the church, whether they claim to be Christian or non-Christian.

OZ---The passage you quoted from Mark 16:15ff is not in the oldest NT MSS, so it is not considered to be part of the NT. You are relying on additions to the NT Greek that are late. For you to rely on this section of Mark 16 demonstrates that you have a predetermined agenda.

No, you just need to do some more research. While the passage isn't in Sinaiticus It is quoted by earlier ECF's which proves that it is not a later addition. It was around before Sinaiticus. Irenaeus quotes Mark 16:19 and he wrote around 180 A.D. that was long before Sanaiticus.
From looking at history it seems to me more likely that it was removed from Sinaitcus. Sinaiticus is an Alexandrian manuscript and Alexandria was known as a hotbed for Gnosticism and the Gnostics were famous for altering the Scriptures.

I have a PhD in NT (dissertation-only in the British system). I've done more than my share of research on the NT. You have committed an appeal to belief logical fallacy by claiming that since Alexandria was known as a hotbed of Gnosticism that infected Sinaiticus. You have engaged in erroneous reasoning. There is evidence to confirm that Mark 16:9ff has been ADDED much later than the oldest MSS of the NT.

I wrote that quoting from Isaiah is an irrelevant way to deal with the NT gifts of the Spirit and their purpose. Your response was:

You say that and at the same time talk about careful exegesis? How is it careful exegesis to ignore passages of Scripture that don't suit your beliefs?

It's because I believe in careful exegesis that I stated what I did about interpreting the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12-14 through the eyes of Isaiah.

We cannot have a logical conversation when you use logical fallacies in your responses along with fruit-picking an OT verse from Isaiah.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Do you accept and believe the scripture above to be true?

If you do then why with all the education you've had accumulated make you doubt that God never moved holy men of old to write Mark 16:9ff or the Book of Revelation? If these scriptures along with the Book of Revelation were NOT suppose to be in the Bible as you and other scholars say, would you think God will allow them to remain in the Bible?

FYI, did you know Revelation 22:18-19 is not only is a ominous warning but also to declare Jesus is God? Yes it is true! For no one can declare the plagues written therein and perform them, except God Himself!

You've asked “which Bible alone?” Well, it is the Bible alone and in its entirety is the Word of God.

I am glad I am not as smart as other people or I will probably think and think wrong like them, instead of just accepting by faith that the Bible is infallible and true.

To God Be The Glory

Jun,

Of course I believe and accept 2 Pet 1:21, but I do not accept the application that you want to draw between that verse and Mark 16:9ff. God never moved holy men of old to write Mark 16:9ff because the evidence does not point to these verses being in the NT. Don't you realise that the books in the NT did not come together by some supernatural wand that God waved and brought them together. They came together through decisions made (tradition) by the early church.

Where did I ever say that the Book of Revelation was not in the Bible? You are telling a lie about what I wrote.

You state: 'FYI, did you know Revelation 22:18-19 is not only is a ominous warning but also to declare Jesus is God?'. It is only an ominous warning to those who ADD TO THE BOOK OF REVELATION. FYI, at the time Revelation was written, there was no NT canon gathered that included the Book of Revelation.

To which 'Bible alone' are you referring? The KJV, the Hebrew OT + Greek NT, NIV, ESV, NASB, NLT, etc? Do you get the question I'm asking?

God has given you and me minds to think about what the Bible, its MSS, and which books are in or not in Scripture. Does your Bible contain the Gospel of Peter and Tobit? If not, why not? Why don't you accept by faith that the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of the Laodiceans are in Scripture? Why not accept by faith that Bel and the Dragon is contained in Scripture? What about 1 & 2 Maccabees?

Oz

 

[Jun2u]

God never moved holy men of old to write Mark 16:9ff because the evidence does not point to these verses being in the NT.

By whose standard of evidence are you going by, God's or man's? Mark 16:9ff cannot be written by the mind of man only by God.

Don't you realise that the books in the NT did not come together by some supernatural wand that God waved and brought them together. They came together through decisions made (tradition) by the early church.

Since the Bible is the Word of God don't you believe He guided the men to put together the correct books?

It is only an ominous warning to those who ADD TO THE BOOK OF REVELATION. FYI, at the time Revelation was written, there was no NT canon gathered that included the Book of Revelation.

Revelation 22:18-19 is a warning to those who insist that God is still bringing revelation through dreams and visions and tongues. These were possible as the Bible was not yet completed but once the Bible was completed these were not possible any longer.

Whether Revelation was written before or after the NT was canonized is irrelevant. If we add or take away from the Book of Revelation effectively, we have added and taken away from the Bible.

To which 'Bible alone' are you referring? The KJV, the Hebrew OT + Greek NT, NIV, ESV, NASB, NLT, etc? Do you get the question I'm asking?

Please don't insult me. Take your pick at which Bible you think I've referred to for they are all translations of the same original manuscripts. Some are better translated than others but they are still considered the Bible.

Does your Bible contain the Gospel of Peter and Tobit? If not, why not? Why don't you accept by faith that the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of the Laodiceans are in Scripture? Why not accept by faith that Bel and the Dragon is contained in Scripture? What about 1 & 2 Maccabees?

Tobit, Bel, 1 & 2 Maccabees, and if I might add the Apocrypha, and Judith are NOT part of the 67 books called the Bible. They are omitted because by studying these books they do not harmonize with the rest of scriptures for the Bible is one cohesive whole.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Wormwood]

Jun2u,

The point I think Oz is trying to make here (at least one of them) is the reason you do not accept 2 Maccabees or the Gospel of Peter is because (some) early believers did not believe these books were inspired (either due to authorship, date, or content, etc.) Pretty much every scholar attests to the fact that the long ending of Mark did not exist for about 200 years after Mark wrote his Gospel. The long ending was added later. It is not in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts. Thus, it is not inspired or the Word of God because Mark (the inspired author) did not write it. As Oz pointed out, the Bible was not put together by an act of magic, nor did someone trip over an old, dusty book that had all the letters there. It was put together by early believers that recognized the letters were written by those who walked with Jesus or had content that was agreed upon and recognized to be inspired, authoritative and historically accurate. The long ending of Mark, while informative and contains some good information, was just simply not written by Mark and therefore should not be considered inspired. Pretty much every translation made has a footnote that says as much. If I write some additional sentences in the pages of my Bible, it does not, by virtue of being in the binding of the book, suddenly become inspired and authoritative. Someone added the long ending as a footnote hundreds of years later and it is not Scripture anymore than the scribbles and notes handwritten in your Bible are Scripture.