Does the Church still possess miraculous gifts today?

[StanJ]

I was not agreeing with your understanding of James 5, I was merely agreeing that James 5 can be read either way literal or spiritual. I also said, ultimately God has in view the spiritual meaning, and then explained my reasons why.

I have no idea what you mean by 'literal or spiritual'? Bible is a spiritual handbook and the deals with all kinds of things. The point is you have to understand this style that's being used and not a sign it yourself. It's already there but if you can't identify it then you won't understand it and you'll end up isolating like you're doing now.

What has forgiveness of sins to do with petitioning God to heal someone's physical illness? We pray and plead to God to heal/save and to forgive someone's sins because he is spiritually ill and NOT because he is physically ill.

Well if you have to ask then you're definitely not understanding what James is writing here. As I said before it's a pretty basic plain English, at least for most of us.

In that case, we can rule out the story the Barrd enfolded here because the baby did not understand the matter of faith. I realize Barrd's post came after you posted.

I rarely if ever agree with anything Barrd says, but that's not really the point is it?

O Stan...Stan, is this what you have learned after years of studying the Bible that you cannot get the bigger picture? Did you not read that when a believer dies in his soul/spirit essence he goes to be with the Lord Jesus (2Co 5:8) confirming that he is healed/saved in his soul/spirit essence evidenced by his body returning back to the dust? Do you know why his body goes back to the dust? Because it has not been healed/saved yet until Jesus raises him up on the last day. This is the concept many non-OSAS do not understand. I apologize, I know this is the wrong thread for this however, it needed to be said.

You know this type of condescension really doesn't work on me right? All it really shows is just how little you understand. I read nothing that says it went to believer dies his Essence goes to God. The fact that you don't actually understand what Paul says in 2 Cor 5:8 is again your problem not mine. It's very clear in my mind that Paul is expressing a desire not a reality. Do you not think that Paul knew where home was going to be? Did he not say that he did not want Believers to be ignorant about what would happen when Jesus returns? Did Jesus not say that no man has ever seen God? Me thinks you should take the time to actually study what God's word says instead of being condescending towards others who know what it says. You don't seem to understand that even though Jesus defeated death we still die and we are still raised at his return. You want to try to figure those issues out first I would think.

 

[OzSpen]

A “miracle healing”? I doubt it. You belong to a church who believe the Bible is the Word of God, plus whatever revelations the congregation is receiving, which of course is contrary to Revelation 22:18.

To God Be The Glory

Jun,

I do wish you would realise that the verse you quoted, Rev 22:18, was in the Book of Revelation, that was not yet in the canon of Scripture at the time John wrote. John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote this book of prophecy (predominantly), so when he warns against adding to the words of prophecy of this book, the 'this book' is the Book of Revelation and not the entire Scripture.

However, you do have a point in that some charismatics elevate the gift of prophecy to near scriptural status. But I've been in many Pentecostal/charismatic churches over the years where the gift of prophecy is treated as a word from God for a specific situation, that is NOT of scriptural authority.

In fact, Wayne Grudem, a Calvinistic Baptist research professor, has written a masterly exposition on The Gift of Prophecy: In the New Testament and Today. I have the British edition published by Kingsway Publications, Eastbourne, in 1988 [Wheaton, Illinois: Crossway Books 2000]. He explains that OT prophets and NT apostles were speaking God's very words. However, for the continuing gift of prophecy, these prophets (as in Corinth) are 'speaking merely human words to report something God brings to mind' (Grudem 1988:67).

Grudem explains the gift of prophecy HERE (YouTube).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

You did not see Mark 16:17-18 as metaphorical either while we discussed the “new tongue”. I said the “new tongues” were synonym for the Word of God, and you said the “new tongues” are set forth in 1Corinthians Chapters 12; 13; and 14. We never got anywhere because the discussion stopped at this point.

I'm back again with Mark 16:17-18 to hopefully tie together James 5 with Mark 16, as I know the Bible is one cohesive whole and everything in it is interrelated.

Mark 16:17-18 reads:

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

There are five signs set forth in Mark 16: 17-18 and I would like to point out these signs are to follow or manifest to all those who are believers.

You say you don't know of anyone who sees James 5 as metaphorical and referring not to spiritual sin-sickness, I say then you've never really met a born again Christian, and you've never really entertained angels unaware.

The Bible is a very complex Book and NOT like a simple reading of the text as you claim. If James 5 is truly referring of someone who is physically ill and bed-ridden as you say and then prayed upon he will be healed correct?

Well let me ask you a question and this is the 64 million dollar question. D-o y-o-u k-n-o-w o-f a-n-y-o-n-e w-h-o g-o-e-s a-b-o-u-t t-h-e h-o-s-p-i-t-a-l b-e-d-s a-n-d l-a-y h-i-s h-a-n-d-s o-n t-h-e s-i-c-k, a-n-d t-h-e-y r-e-c-o-v-e-r? (emphasis added).

Remember, these signs will follow those that believe!!!

I don't think there is such a person, do you?

Do you see now that James 5 cannot be speaking of physical illness rather it is pointing to spiritual decease?

To God Be The Glory

Jun,

I find you to be barking up the wrong tree with Mark 16:17-18 because Mk 16:9-20 is not in some of the earliest manuscripts. You will never get me quoting from this passage (Mk 16:9-20) as contained in Scripture as it requires agreement with the ludicrous instruction, 'they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them'.

As a result of this content, the Christian church has had to deal with the extremists of snake handling churches like this one, as reported in Wikipedia, of a Pentecostal Church of God

I find your emphasis to be scoffing at Christians (bordering on blasphemy) who believe in the continuing gifts of the Spirit:

Well let me ask you a question and this is the 64 million dollar question. D-o y-o-u k-n-o-w o-f a-n-y-o-n-e w-h-o g-o-e-s a-b-o-u-t t-h-e h-o-s-p-i-t-a-l b-e-d-s a-n-d l-a-y h-i-s h-a-n-d-s o-n t-h-e s-i-c-k, a-n-d t-h-e-y r-e-c-o-v-e-r? (emphasis added).

Remember, these signs will follow those that believe!!!

I don't think there is such a person, do you?

The facts are that these verses are not in Scripture so your scoffing is your invention that should be treated with disdain on this forum.

Oz

 

[Barrd]

Barrd


I've already touched on this matter about people who are prayed for and get healed from their physical illness, and those who are prayed for and still die.

According to your story, note how the surgeon prayed for God to guide his hands that the surgery may go well. I perceive that if the surgeon was a believer, he would instead have petitioned God that the baby be healed/saved and to use him as the vehicle to repair whatever damage has occurred in the baby's heart.

Through the grace and mercy of God I'm happy to learn your granddaughter is now eighteen.

A “miracle healing”? I doubt it. You belong to a church who believe the Bible is the Word of God, plus whatever revelations the congregation is receiving, which of course is contrary to Revelation 22:18.

To God Be The Glory

Actually, I do not belong to such a church, Jun, and I think most of what we are seeing in such churches is as phony as a three dollar bill.
The surgeon did not pray for the baby to be instantly healed, as you suggest...but for God to guide his hands.
The miracle, in my eyes, was that this man was due to retire...in fact, he was there at the hospital, celebrating that fact, when we brought the baby in. God put him there at that time, in that place, because he was needed.

 

[Jun2u]

Actually, I do not belong to such a church, Jun, and I think most of what we are seeing in such churches is as phony as a three dollar bill.
The surgeon did not pray for the baby to be instantly healed, as you suggest...but for God to guide his hands.
The miracle, in my eyes, was that this man was due to retire...in fact, he was there at the hospital, celebrating that fact, when we brought the baby in. God put him there at that time, in that place, because he was needed.

I apologize, it seemed that some of your posts in the past indicated you belonged to a church that still feature miracles, signs, and wonders, and tongues

Now that I have the full story, yes I believe God put the surgeon there at the right place, and at the right time. Nothing in this world passes by without Him knowing. God knew that this surgeon was the only doctor who could perform such operation. Although the thing you saw was a miracle tin your eyes it was not so for it was God's to do and to will of His good pleasure.

Just thank Him that your grand-daughter has been with you for the past 18 years.


To God Be The Glory

 

[StanJ]

I apologize, it seemed that some of your posts in the past indicated you belonged to a church that still feature miracles, signs, and wonders, and tongues

Now that I have the full story, yes I believe God put the surgeon there at the right place, and at the right time. Nothing in this world passes by without Him knowing. God knew that this surgeon was the only doctor who could perform such operation. Although the thing you saw was a miracle tin your eyes it was not so for it was God's to do and to will of His good pleasure.

Just thank Him that your grand-daughter has been with you for the past 18 years.
To God Be The Glory

I don't quite understand how her church venue changes your opinion of her initial observation?

 

[Barrd]

I apologize, it seemed that some of your posts in the past indicated you belonged to a church that still feature miracles, signs, and wonders, and tongues

Now that I have the full story, yes I believe God put the surgeon there at the right place, and at the right time. Nothing in this world passes by without Him knowing. God knew that this surgeon was the only doctor who could perform such operation. Although the thing you saw was a miracle tin your eyes it was not so for it was God's to do and to will of His good pleasure.

Just thank Him that your grand-daughter has been with you for the past 18 years.


To God Be The Glory

You've probably heard me mention that I live just across the AL/FL line in Alabama, about two hours or so out of Pensacola. Brownsville is not very far from here. Of every five Christians here, at least three of them are charismatic.
I've told some of the things I've seen and heard...and I'm fairly convinced that most of it is phony baloney.

But, yes. I give Him the glory for my Katlynn.

I never realized how very short a time eighteen years really is....

 

[Wormwood]

You did not see Mark 16:17-18 as metaphorical either while we discussed the “new tongue”. I said the “new tongues” were synonym for the Word of God, and you said the “new tongues” are set forth in 1Corinthians Chapters 12; 13; and 14. We never got anywhere because the discussion stopped at this point.

I'm back again with Mark 16:17-18 to hopefully tie together James 5 with Mark 16, as I know the Bible is one cohesive whole and everything in it is interrelated.

Mark 16:17-18 reads:

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

There are five signs set forth in Mark 16: 17-18 and I would like to point out these signs are to follow or manifest to all those who are believers.

You say you don't know of anyone who sees James 5 as metaphorical and referring not to spiritual sin-sickness, I say then you've never really met a born again Christian, and you've never really entertained angels unaware.

The Bible is a very complex Book and NOT like a simple reading of the text as you claim. If James 5 is truly referring of someone who is physically ill and bed-ridden as you say and then prayed upon he will be healed correct?

Well let me ask you a question and this is the 64 million dollar question. D-o y-o-u k-n-o-w o-f a-n-y-o-n-e w-h-o g-o-e-s a-b-o-u-t t-h-e h-o-s-p-i-t-a-l b-e-d-s a-n-d l-a-y h-i-s h-a-n-d-s o-n t-h-e s-i-c-k, a-n-d t-h-e-y r-e-c-o-v-e-r? (emphasis added).

Remember, these signs will follow those that believe!!!

I don't think there is such a person, do you?

Do you see now that James 5 cannot be speaking of physical illness rather it is pointing to spiritual decease?

To God Be The Glory

Mark didn't write that so it doesn't matter.

 

[Jun2u]

Mark didn't write that so it doesn't matter.

YOU ARE SO RIGHT. WHAT GREAT INSIGHT! Of a truth Mark did NOT write that portion of scriptures. GOD DID as Holy men of old spoke as God the Holy Spirit moved them.

Sure it matters! God IS the author of the Bible.
Are you serious? Are you saying you KNOW more than God? How arrogant!!! Let God be true and all man liars, we are told. Just because you and some scholars agree that Mark 16:9ff does not belong in the Bible for whatever reasons that does not mean it's true. What is true is what we read in Proverbs 3:5-7:

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

While you and your colleagues' best works are still tainted by sin.

Do you think that God would disobey His own rules when He gave the ominous warnings set forth in Revelation 22:18-19, because He is God and give a sovereign decree to change His law whenever He wishes? He too is subject to His own laws! He is not a God of confusion but of order.

Furthermore, there are those who say the Book of Revelation stands alone apart from the Bible. They just don't get it, because if we add or take away from the Book of Revelation, we have added or taken away from the Bible.

I believe the true nature of your disbelief concerning Mark 16 is because you do not know what to do with or how to interpret verses 17 and 18, and how to understand the five signs found therein. Do you know why? Because you have been taught in seminary that if the text does not say it's a parable, you should NOT seek for any additional meaning. Yet the Bible although is historical is also a spiritual book and must be spiritually discerned (1Co 2:14).

Well, I'm far from being as eloquent as you but I pray you got the gist of this post.

To God Be The Glory

 

[OzSpen]

YOU ARE SO RIGHT. WHAT GREAT INSIGHT! Of a truth Mark did NOT write that portion of scriptures. GOD DID as Holy men of old spoke as God the Holy Spirit moved them.

Sure it matters! God IS the author of the Bible.
Are you serious? Are you saying you KNOW more than God? How arrogant!!! Let God be true and all man liars, we are told. Just because you and some scholars agree that Mark 16:9ff does not belong in the Bible for whatever reasons that does not mean it's true....

Jun2u,

Are you saying you know better than Codex Sinaiticus, dated in the 4th century, located today in the British Museum in London, which does not include Mark 16:9-20?

Are you so knowledgeable of the early Greek MSS that you KNOW for sure that Mark 16:9-20 is contained in the Bible because it is in the earliest MSS?

Do you believe in the snake-handlers' sect that practises Mark 16:18-19? Are you part of that kind of group? If not, why not?

(courtesy www.dustinteat.com)​

The topic of this thread is, 'Does the Church still possess miraculous gifts today?' And the miraculous gifts theme of Mark 16 is, 'And these signs will accompany those who believe' (Mk 16:17 ESV). One of those gifts relates to believers picking up snakes with their hands. Are you pursuing this sign?

Sincerely,
Oz

 

[Jun2u]

Jun2u,

Are you saying you know better than Codex Sinaiticus, dated in the 4th century, located today in the British Museum in London, which does not include Mark 16:9-20?

Are you so knowledgeable of the early Greek MSS that you KNOW for sure that Mark 16:9-20 is contained in the Bible because it is in the earliest MSS?

Do you believe in the snake-handlers' sect that practises Mark 16:18-19? Are you part of that kind of group? If not, why not?

(courtesy www.dustinteat.com)​

The topic of this thread is, 'Does the Church still possess miraculous gifts today?' And the miraculous gifts theme of Mark 16 is, 'And these signs will accompany those who believe' (Mk 16:17 ESV). One of those gifts relates to believers picking up snakes with their hands. Are you pursuing this sign?

Sincerely,
Oz

Oz,


I am an unlearned man by any stretch of the imagination but I do know God is perfect in all that He does. He is infallible and the words He wrote that were circumscribed in the Bible are true. If you want to hang your life to a bunch of scholars that put together the book Codex Sinaiticus that is your prerogative but for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

I'm quite aware of the topic of this thread. As a matter of fact, I've said explicitly in post #140 that the five signs in Mark 16 will follow those that believe. I've always maintained that the Bible is a historical as well as a moral and spiritual book and therefore must be spiritually discerned if we are to understand the meaning of scriptures. In fact, Each time I go to the Bible I tell the Lord, Lord I don't know anything teach me! The two basic principles God had given by which we can understand the deeper meaning of scriptures is circumscribed in 2Ti 3:16 and 1Co 2:14. The five signs in Mark 16 must be spiritually discerned and cannot be read literally otherwise, you will come up with all sorts of red flags. It is ludicrous to think that any believer who pick up a poisonous snake or drink strychnine or cyanide will not be harmed by them. Be realistic, Oz.

I would like so much to tell of the mysteries surrounding the five signs but I can't since you and others here don't believe Mark 16:9-20 should be part of scripture. I'm going to let you be like the Bereans who searched out the Bible to see if these things were so.

To God Be The Glory

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,


I am an unlearned man by any stretch of the imagination but I do know God is perfect in all that He does. He is infallible and the words He wrote that were circumscribed in the Bible are true. If you want to hang your life to a bunch of scholars that put together the book Codex Sinaiticus that is your prerogative but for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

Jun,

Please tell me what your understanding is of Codex Sinaiticus.

Oz

 

[Jun2u]

Jun,

Please tell me what your understanding is of Codex Sinaiticus.

Oz

I've actually not read the book. Why don't you tell me since it was you who brought it up

 

[OzSpen]

I've actually not read the book. Why don't you tell me since it was you who brought it up

Jun2u,

You can read about it at Codex Sinaiticus. After you've read that information, then please tell us of its importance to understanding the New Testament.

Oz

 

[Butch5]

In order to keep threads on topic, I have created this thread to help channel a discussion on this subject matter. This thread will explore the role of miraculous gifts in the life of the New Testament church and discuss/debate issues such as:

1. Is the Holy Spirit still giving people these gifts?
2. Can everyone expect to have particular supernatural gifts and if so, which ones (healing, prophecy, knowledge, tongues, etc.)
3. If Christians are to have these gifts, why do some groups/denominations not have them?
4. If the Holy Spirit is no longer giving these gifts, what texts do you use to support this view?

Here are just a few areas that should be discussed on this subject. Remember, please keep the debate about doctrine and Scripture and do not attack the individual. If Christ can love and forgive those who were killing him, how much more should we be kind and gracious toward brothers and sisters with whom we disagree on debatable matters.

Those gifts ceased. They were given to validate the Apostles as genuinely from God.

 

[OzSpen]

Those gifts ceased. They were given to validate the Apostles as genuinely from God.

I note that you provided no Scripture to support your position.

 

[Butch5]

I note that you provided no Scripture to support your position.

I could post 1 Cor. 13. It's pretty clear, prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will cease.

 

[Barrd]

I could post 1 Cor. 13. It's pretty clear, prophecies, tongues, and knowledge will cease.

My Bible says:

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Now, as far as I know, "that which is perfect" has not yet come. Did I miss something?

 

[Butch5]

My Bible says:

1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Now, as far as I know, "that which is perfect" has not yet come. Did I miss something?

Hi The Barrd,

The Greek word translated "perfect" means mature or complete. Notice Paul's example of going from boyhood to manhood. He said knowledge and prophecy were in part but when the completion comes that which is in part shall be done away with. What was the knowledge and prophecy that he was speaking of? It was the faith that was being revealed. That revelation came to an end. Jude tells his readers to contend for the faith that was once handed down. Tongues on the other hand was to stop on it's own, The Greek word that Paul used for tongues ceasing is in the Greek middle voice which means it will stop of its own accord. Paul says that tongues was a sign for the unbeliever and refers to the OT. If you go back and look at Isaiah 8 and 28 you'll see that tongues was a sign to Israel, specifically the Jewish leadership. I've written an article on this based on the Scriptures. You might find it interesting. It will explain more than I can do in a single post. Spiritual Gifts

 

[OzSpen]

Hi The Barrd,

The Greek word translated "perfect" means mature or complete. Notice Paul's example of going from boyhood to manhood. He said knowledge and prophecy were in part but when the completion comes that which is in part shall be done away with. What was the knowledge and prophecy that he was speaking of? It was the faith that was being revealed. That revelation came to an end. Jude tells his readers to contend for the faith that was once handed down. Tongues on the other hand was to stop on it's own, The Greek word that Paul used for tongues ceasing is in the Greek middle voice which means it will stop of its own accord. Paul says that tongues was a sign for the unbeliever and refers to the OT. If you go back and look at Isaiah 8 and 28 you'll see that tongues was a sign to Israel, specifically the Jewish leadership. I've written an article on this based on the Scriptures. You might find it interesting. It will explain more than I can do in a single post. Spiritual Gifts

Butch,

You are giving us a fairly standard cessationist argument, but you seem to miss a very important verse in 1 Cor 13:8-12 (ESV) that helps to unlock when these gifts will cease:

8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

Paul dares to tell us when the gifts will cease and they are not in the time frame you want us to believe. The partial knowledge of tongues, knowledge and the other gifts will pass away when we no longer have need for them, i.e. when we are 'face to face' with God Himself. Until then, the gifts will continue.

I do wish your exegesis would have taken this crucial factor into account. It did not.

I agree that the Greek telos (perfect) in 1 Cor 13:10, which means the 'end', refers to full-grown, mature . It's the same word as used in 1 Cor 2:6 (ESV), 'For among the mature [teleiois] we do impart wisdom'.

Oz