OzSpen said:
Butch,
So face to face is a comparison, an example, you say. What is it an example of? You seem to be missing the point.
Because τὸ τέλειον is neuter gender proves zero, nothing. Purpose or result is neuter in English also, but that doesn't mean a person doesn't have a purpose, which is a neuter object. You seem to be confusing the nature of gender in Greek and its translation into English.
Paul IS speaking of the Eschaton and face to face with whoever. That's the purpose of the ending of seeing in a mirror partly and then seeing fully, face to face.
You say that 'It's reading these modern authors that has brought so much error into the faith'. That is not a factual statement. Marcion one of the early church writers and agitators brought error into the church. So did Pelagius and Arius. I find it quite a joke that you want to blame modern authors for bringing error into the church when the ECF had more than their share of heretics and false teaching.
Gnosticism was a constant threat in the first few centuries - the heretical Gnostic doctrines - and you dare to say that the problem of false teachers is with 'modern authors'. That's utterly false. The church has had to deal with heretics throughout its history, not just in the present.
I have done my serious study of Scripture over the years to compare OT prophecy with NT prophecy to reach my conclusion. It has zero to do with whether I was there, but has everything to do with what the Scriptures reveal about OT and NT prophecy and my being a careful exegete. All of us have to be aware of how we can impose our beliefs on a text. That is an issue for both you and me.
I have made some meagre attempts to put that material online, including this article:
You ask: '
Do you know what the purpose of those miraculous gifts was?' I certainly do. First Corinthians 14:12 (ESV) speaks clearly of the purpose of the gifts: 'So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church'.
Edification of the church - the people of God - is God's purpose. That's Bible! And do you know what? There is an absolute need for the church to be edified until Jesus returns. That's why the cessationist position is vacuous. It wants that edification from the gifts to be eliminated. That's not God's view. We need that edification until the Eschaton. Extremism is no reason to reject the gifts. The key is correction of extremist error, but extremism can be experienced in both cessationism and continuationism.
Oz
Oz,
It's obvious to me that you have a lot invested in your view and it would be too costly to consider something else. I think anyone reading 1 Cor 13 can easily see that Paul compares, In part, and maturity with, I was a child and now a man, I see though a glass darkly but then face to face, now I know but then I will fully know. They are all examples of something coming to maturity just like he said of prophecies and knowledge. I think anyone without a position to defend can see that.
Regarding the false teachers, the Gnostics were not Christians so there is no comparison there. Marcion was not a Christian. Yes, the church has always fought false teachings, but in beginning it was from without. Ever since the time of Constantine things have been going awry. Also, some of the wrong commentators are simply in error, probably not intentional, they simply have a theological bias.
Regarding the purpose of the gifts, it isn't to edify the church, that's not why they were given. Edification may be a result of the gifts, but it's not there purpose. The purpose of the gifts was to validate the message of the apostles.
12 Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18
Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. (Isa. 8:12-18 KJV)
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11
For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:
yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD,
ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. (Isa. 28:9-14 KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 A
nd they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
(Mk. 16:15-1:1 KJV)
3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord,
and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4
God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb. 2:3-4 KJV)
The purpose of the gifts was to confirm the words of the apostles. If someone came and said, believe in this man who was raised up from the dead, a lot of people aren't going to pay much attention to them. However, if they first give sight to the blind, heal the lame, or raise the dead, then people are going to pay attention.
Also, Paul states plainly that tongues was a sign to unbelievers, not Christians. That fits perfectly with what we find in Isaiah. Paul alludes to this in 1 Cor. 14. He says in the Law it is written. That's Isaiah 28. In that chapter it explicitly states that God would speak to this people, which is Israel, which stammering lips and another tongue. The gifts are fulfilled prophecy.
Since the purpose of the gifts is to confirm the word and you claim they are still active today and most every church teaches some wrong doctrines, whose word is being confirmed? After all, the apostles are the only one who had the untainted Gospel.
Also, a look at the Scriptures will reveal that the only mention of signs and wonders (other than the two witnesses) in the end times is a warning to watch for lying signs and wonders.
Another question I would ask is how does one receive these gifts today if they are still active. In the NT they were given by the apostles. The ability to bestow the gifts was "the sign of an apostle"
11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
12
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor. 12:11-12 KJV)