Double Standards: Does the liberty in Christ have limitations?

[brakelite]

Oh no you don't. I do not cherish and have such great affection for bacon that I refuse to stop eating it. Honestly, its not a fave of mine at all. But if its put before me, I eat it with a clear conscience and thankfulness.

You are preaching the outside of the cup rather than the Spirit. God desires men who worship Him in spirit and truth, not what you preach.

Sorry, but you would have a hard time convincing even secular scientists that bacon is food. Does the so called liberty you have in Christ absolve you from taking heed of the Manufacturers instructions, out are you like the typical male who thinks he knows better and assembles his stereo without bothering to acknowledge that the maker knows what he is doing.

 

[shnarkle]

Disobedient, where may I ask? ??

Right in the previous post: "Where have I posted that I keep the law????"

You made the false accusation, and then you responded with this revealing admission:

"So if you dont why are you insisting we do????"

Setting aside the fact that I have never insisted that anyone keep the law, why does it bother you so much to be told you should obey God's law??? "Me thinks the lady doth protest too much". You're caught and you don't even seem to know it yet. You've falsely accused me, then followed that up with questioning why you should have to keep God's laws. This is priceless!!!

Do you think God would condemn you for eating all that you have available, or would you rather forgo the life He gave you and starve to death. For a cannibal, eating men is ok, just as it is for kids that eat lollies or men that drink alcohol, there is only one standard and that is Christ, but untill we are all changes in a twinkling of an eye, we still live in this orrid flesh. Who are we to judge or condemn anyone for what they eat. What is right in one mans eye... only opinions.

I'm not following your argument here at all. it sounds like you're saying that as long as you live according to the flesh, you can do whatever you please. This is what Paul says in Romans 8 when he points out that as long as one is carnal, they can never be subject to God's laws. Only those who walk after the Spirit can be subject to God's laws. Paul then instructs his church in Rome to walk after the Spirit. Evidently, that doesn't seem to be applicable to you. Do you think this is because he didn't address this to you? Do you think this is because you don't live in Rome? Are you admitting that you are carnal? Those who are carnal are necessarily under the law. What's your excuse?

 

[mjrhealth]

Those who are carnal are necessarily under the law. What's your excuse?

Oh so we are right back to the law again, I thought the law was not the issue??? The only ones under the law are those who choose to be judged by it, just as the only ones who will be judged by there works will be those who choose to try and find there approval by there works which includes those who insist on the law because it is all by ones own works. Dont you know that those who are dead in Christ have being raised up into the newness of His life, they have already being judged, do you think God will than judge them a second time, is He like man?? We are all without excuse, and the ones who insist they are perfect in there flesh are the greatest deceivers of all. Would you take me to be a fool to think that I could stand before God and justify myself, before God I am naked and blind but in Christ I am a new creation, God doesnt see us the sinner He sees Christ His resurrected Son. Who would you rather God see, you and your dead works or Christ the one who is perfect???

 

[mjrhealth]

why does it bother you so much to be told you should obey God's law???

It doesnt bother me at all, it troubles me that so many insist we do, as if they themselves can.

 

[shnarkle]

Oh so we are right back to the law again, I thought the law was not the issue???

You're the one who wants to make it an issue.

The only ones under the law are those who choose to be judged by it,

The only ones under the law are those who still continue to sin. Paul clearly points out that there are two sub categories within this as well. Those who are "under the law", and those who are "outside the law"; both are judged.

The New Covenant doesn't work that way. Those who are under the New Covenant are no longer subject to condemnation because they no longer sin. I have supplied the relevant proof texts repeatedly already.

in Christ I am a new creation,

Those who are truly in Christ no longer sin because there can be no sin in Christ. Plenty of people have already pointed this fact out. Paul and John, and James are not being flippant in their comments. They are pointing out the reality of exactly what it means to be in Christ.

God doesnt see us the sinner He sees Christ His resurrected Son.

And the sinner no longer sins when they enter into Christ because the faith of Christ enters into the new creation. That's what makes them a new creation. The new creature does not sin. That's what the New Covenant is all about. It's all about Christ reigning in the world. The good news is not good news to the carnal mind because the carnal man is destroyed in Christ. Only the new creation lives in Christ. For those who have endeavored to be obedient and are loathsome towards sin in their lives, the offer of a sinless life in Christ is truly good news. Believe, and receive Christ into your life, and your life will end so that an abundant life in Christ may glow all the brighter.

Who would you rather God see, you and your dead works or Christ the one who is perfect???

What would you rather do; continue to sin because you just can't help it, or surrender to Christ, and lose your entire identity in Him? Just how badly do you want to stop sinning? Do you want to stop sinning enough to completely die to this fallen world?

Do you want salvation while you continue to sin, or are you ready to deny yourself, and lose your life for Christ's sake?

The former is not the gospel, and no one is ever going to persecute you for that watered down sad excuse for good news. The latter is an invitation to be put to death for Christ's sake.

 

[mjrhealth]

The New Covenant doesn't work that way. Those who are under the New Covenant are no longer subject to condemnation because they no longer sin. I have supplied the relevant proof texts repeatedly already.

Really?? So you than are perfect.... Another Jesus I have found. And so all those poor people trying to hold onto that little faith they have are to be condemned by those who are perfect. IF we do not sin, than we have no need for Christ.. Have you not read

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

As I said, God no longer sees the sinful man He now sees His Righteous Son, and when those who are week in there faith understand that, than they will grow, but as long as the perfect insist they too be perfect many will stumble.

 

[shnarkle]

It doesnt bother me at all,

It certainly bothers you enough to ask why you have to be obedient. Why ask at all, if it doesn't bother you? Again, those who are obedient, or even those who desire to obey God, aren't going to be bothered by this issue at all. You're asking why you should be obedient to God, and then claiming that it doesn't bother you. Nice try, but no one is going to believe your feeble attempts to deflect the fact that not only are you not obedient to God, but you are actually asking why you should be. Jesus would point out that if you love him, you will keep his commandments. Jesus kept all of the commandments in love. By his love, all the commandments can be kept, and he explicitly instructs his followers to love others as he loves them.

it troubles me that so many insist we do,

Again, this is an incredibly amazing admission. I can see that the Spirit is convicting you right now, or you wouldn't be troubled by this in the first place.

as if they themselves can.

You don't seem to be able to separate the truth of God's word from those who are presenting it to you. You're engaging in the fallacy of the Ad Hominem. You're addressing me rather than the argument I am presenting. Try to focus on the argument itself. Try to focus on the subject under discussion rather than on me. I'm not important. This isn't about me. Remember that the gospel is about self denial. It isn't about personalities. It's about making ourselves scarce. It's about decreasing, so that Christ may increase. Try to look at the subject matter instead of making it about someone else or about yourself. Try to focus just on Christ, and you'll see that there can be no sin in Christ. He's not holding onto all that sin, and neither should you or I.

 

[shnarkle]

Really?? So you than are perfect....

Again, try to take your focus off of me, and focus on the subject matter. This isn't about me. This is about the truth.

Another Jesus I have found.

It would seem that you have quite a few.

And so all those poor people trying to hold onto that little faith they have are to be condemned by those who are perfect.

Now you're just trolling. Actually, if you were to read your bible, it says exactly that. Not only that, but they will judge angels.

IF we do not sin, than we have no need for Christ..

EXACTLY!!! More specifically, we no longer need rely upon his sacrifice, and the author of Hebrews points out that there is no sacrifice for sin under the new covenant.

Have you not read

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

As I said, God no longer sees the sinful man

You might want to read that again because he not only sees the sin, he condemns it.

He now sees His Righteous Son, and when those who are week in there faith understand that, than they will grow, but as long as the perfect insist they too be perfect many will stumble.

You're still conflating the Old Covenant with the New. As long as the believer continues to sin, they must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins. When the believer enters into the New Covenant, they no longer sin, and Christ's sacrifice is no longer an option. Hebrews 9:15; 10:26

 

[mjrhealth]

You're still conflating the Old Covenant with the New. As long as the believer continues to sin, they must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins. When the believer enters into the New Covenant, they no longer sin, and Christ's sacrifice is no longer an option. Hebrews 9:15; 10:26

Hmm really, so I say again are you perfect??. It is out Spirit that cannot sin, our flesh is another different beast all together, that is why we are a new creation, the Spirit of God in man, a work in progress all in Gods good time. We die once that we are raised up. If we are dead already how than can we be judged a second time... Christ died for us once, the perfect sacrifice made, the final payment done, no longer justified in our flesh because in our flesh no man is justified, but by Christ and His works.

Whats all this got to do with the old covenant, us Christians never had an old covenant, we only ever got the better one.

We are a vessel into made of the dust of this earth, in which God places His Spirit when we come to Christ. Do you really think God cares about the outside of the vessel, muddied with daily life, handled, mishandled by many, all he cares about is the life that is born in us, but too many are trying to clean teh outside.

 

[shnarkle]

Hmm really, so I say again are you perfect??.

Again, you're engaging in blatant Ad Hominem. It doesn't matter if I'm the chief of sinners or walking after the Spirit in perfect harmony with God's will. Address the argument. Better yet, try and refute it.

It is out Spirit that cannot sin, our flesh is another different beast all together,

Paul says that if you walk after the Spirit, you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Try again.

us Christians never had an old covenant, we only ever got the better one.

Not if you're still sinning. You're still under the conditions of the Old Covenant. Read it yourself if you don't believe me. The ironic thing is that most Christians will even boldly proclaim that they have made a decision to make Christ the lord of their lives, but they still sin. That's the Old Covenant. The New Covenant, God does the choosing, and conforms you into the image of Christ. There are those who still must rely upon Christ's sacrifice, and there are those who no longer need rely upon Christ's sacrifice because the New Covenant has no sacrifice for sin. Christ's sacrifice only covers sins committed under the Old Covenant, so if you're still sinning under the New Covenant, you're out of luck. You're damned. Hebrews 9:15; 10:26 Thankfully, that can't be the case, so you're really still under the Old Covenant, you just don't know it yet. You'll figure it out eventually. If you figure it out now, you may well have a chance of being part of Christ's government during the 1000 years reign. If not, then you get to learn all about it instead.

Do you really think God cares about the outside of the vessel, muddied with daily life, handled, mishandled by many,

It's the temple he has entrusted us to take care of. God's presence sanctifies the temple, not the other way around. If the temple has been profaned, then God's presence is no longer a possibility. God has left the building. You can read all about it when the Assyrians came down and took the northern tribes who had basically abandoned the temple. Then the Babylonians sacked it because the tribes of Judah, Levi, and Benjamin had polluted it. God can't remain in the temple when it is being defiled.

all he cares about is the life that is born in us, but too many are trying to clean teh outside.

So true! When the inside is kept clean, the outside is as well. There is no trying to keep it clean when God purifies it with his presence. It is impossible for sin to get anywhere near it. God's holy presence destroys sin.

 

[mjrhealth]

God has left the building.

Really

2Ti 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

We seem to forget who God is, he is not like a man that he should change His mind.

As for the temple, you seem to have missed this bit.

Mar_14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

So i can only gather, that you,

never get angry, forgive everyone, do not stare at good looking women/ men whichever, do not lie, never steal. never break mens laws, never say, oh that man should be hung for what he did, because you are perfect in everything. Ive being looking for the perfect man, you would be the only one I have ever found.

That's the Old Covenant.

No its not, we never had the old covenant, it was for the Israelites, Jews and them alone. And the old covenant was not perfect as none by it could be made perfect except that one that is perfect, Christ Jesus.

God bless

 

[shnarkle]

Really

Yes, really. If you continue to sin, you must rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover your sins. That's what the sacrificial system pointed to. Christ's sacrifice is the only sacrifice that can cover your sins, and it is only going to cover sins committed under the Old Covenant Hebrews 9:15

As for the temple,

"What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" 1 Corinthians 6:19

So i can only gather, that you,...

...can sin like mad for the rest of my life, and it will not negate my argument. Fallacy of the Ad Hominem.

we never had the old covenant, it was for the Israelites, Jews and them alone.

Then you have no chance of having your sins forgiven. Christ came to cover the sins committed under the Old Covenant Hebrews 9:15

 

[mjrhealth]

Yes, really. If you continue to sin, you must rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover your sins. That's what the sacrificial system pointed to. Christ's sacrifice is the only sacrifice that can cover your sins, and it is only going to cover sins committed under the Old Covenant Hebrews 9:15

No i dont, if someone pays your speeding tickets for life, does that mean tomorrow or forever.... you keep placing limits on God grace, Jesus said it is finished, not" if you are naughty tomorrow im going to have to do this all again".

What part of "finished" do you not understand....

Then you have no chance of having your sins forgiven. Christ came to cover the sins committed under the Old Covenant Hebrews 9:15

Oh you really have missed the point, Christ came to offer salvation to the Jews, he knew they would not accept Him, so Gods plan was a better covenant with the gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy, so in the end all could be saved. God never had a covenant with us before Peter was sent to the gentiles.

Our salvation came because of them, if they had accepted Christ God would have needed an alternative plan, but God knows all things.

Rom_11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Let's see how this plays out with an example from the law. The law states that it is an abomination to engage in sodomy, necrophilia, bestiality, etc. Are you going to be found innocent or guilty of these charges when you stand before God? Are these laws done away in Christ, or not?

Once again, you are preaching the outside of the cup, and it won't help anyone with anything but GROWTH in arrogance, as they will say, I've kept those laws since birth, hey, I might not be so bad after all!

Additionally, when I asked, So you think I am saying it's okay to murder outwardly but not inwardly, you said it was a bad example. Why did you dismiss me when I used the example of murder, saying it was a bad example and yet you are willing to say "let's see how it plays out" with these other three laws/examples? Asking the same thing I asked, but using the example of sexual sins rather than murder. So what you are doing is accusing the men and women in here of the same thing Paul got accused of: saying that we say it is okay to sin.

This shows that you would have argued with Paul himself, just as the lawyers and Pharisees did. You are saying to us the same exact thing they accused Paul of.

This is all designed to inch a man slowly away from the Spirit and back to law, which never saved anyone. It is designed to take away the freedom from sin that is in Christ and imprison men again.

Furthermore, you are making an appeal to men's consciences concerning necrophilia, while you also say they must abandon their consciences in order to do what pleases God.

You just do not understand any of the spirit of the word, and in answer to your question concerning necrophilia, it is having intimate relations with a dead body and to touch a dead body. But you would say a man must not commit necrophilia and pat him on the back for keeping that law (when the conscience you say a man must abandon never would have given a green light for that for anyone in here, I would guess, proving that His law is written on their hearts) , when he could be going every Sunday and shaking hands and hugging a building FULL of the dead, which is necrophilia, in spirit and truth, to have intimacy with a dead body, hence, come out of her My people and do not share in her sins. She has a reputation that she is alive but she is dead. She looks clean on the outside (because no man would be fooled if she wasn't clean on the outside concerning murder, necrophilia, bestiality, etc, since men judge outwardly). No, she has to be outwardly clean or no one would want intimacy with her.

The outside can be clean while the inside is not. But if the inside is clean, the outside will just be clean also.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is no law against the spirit. The letter kills but the spirit gives life.

Sin uses the law to hide within a man and kill him, while crowing, no one has caught me cheating. The spirit uncovers this and gives a man life and freedom.

 

[shnarkle]

No i dont,

You don't what?

if someone pays your speeding tickets for life, does that mean tomorrow or forever...

It means they paid your speeding ticket. It's not an invitation to continue speeding.

.

you keep placing limits on God grace,

You've got it completely backwards. God's grace conforms the new creature to Christ. There is no limit to Christ's perfection.

Jesus said it is finished, not" if you are naughty tomorrow im going to have to do this all again".

Not according to Hebrews 9:15 You keep avoiding that simple fact. God's people do not spend eternity sinning. To assume one can continue to sin for eternity is not only not good news; it's completely sick and twisted.

What part of "finished" do you not understand....

What part of "for the redemption of the transgressions that were under THE FIRST TESTMAMENT, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.", do you not understand?

Jesus proclaims his victory over sin and death, not an invitation to continue sinning. Grace eliminates sin. Those who have crucified the flesh no longer live according to the flesh. They no longer sin because they have crucified sin in the flesh, and live according to the Spirit. You have a "gospel" message that allows you to continue to sin. That's not good news at all. That's the same exact result one gets from the Old Covenant. When the New Covenant is the exact same as the Old Covenant. it's not new at all.

God never had a covenant with us before Peter was sent to the gentiles.

It's the same covenant, i.e. "to the Jew first, then the gentile". There are two ways to approach God's covenant: you can make a decision to love God with your whole being, and love your neighbor as yourself, or God can drag you to Christ, and make a new creation that keeps His commandments according to His will and purpose, through faith in, with, and through Christ by the power of His Holy Spirit. The Spirit cannot fail to keep God's commandments in love. The former is the Old way, while the latter is the New way. You're admitting that you are still making the attempt to keep God's laws by the old way.

Our salvation came because of them, if they had accepted Christ God would have needed an alternative plan, but God knows all things.

False. The Old plan would have worked just fine. The New plan is no different than the old plan. If Israel had repented and accepted Christ, then Israel would have become that shining city on the hill drawing all nations to God. Now that task has been handed to the gentiles, but where is that shining city on the hill that is drawing all people to God? It is in the new creature who now worships in Spirit and truth rather than in some stone Temple.

Rom_11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

No doubt there are some jealous people out there, but that is beside the point. You're still ignoring the fact that Christ's sins only cover sins committed under the Old Covenant. You're never going to be able to get past that. You can quote the entire bible, and you will still have nothing because God is not a respecter of persons. The oracles of God were given to Moses to give to the children of Israel. They ignored them, and returned to the idolatry of Egypt, but Luke points out that those same oracles were given to the New Testament church (Acts 7:38). It is the New Testament church, which is Christ's body who even today continues to be persecuted, wounded, etc., and yet lives by faith keeping all of God's commandments. One need look no further than those who justify their open defiant rebellion against any of God's commandments to see those who have been deceived.

 

[mjrhealth]

It means they paid your speeding ticket. It's not an invitation to continue speeding.

Never said it was, it is always the religious I find that seem to make it so hard for people to accept grace. The law says, you broke the law you die, grace says you screwed up, its ok, try again. You have made grace into a law.

You've got it completely backwards. God's grace conforms the new creature to Christ. There is no limit to Christ's perfection.

No i have not got it backwards, and your statement just confirms there is no limit to Gods grace,

Not according to Hebrews 9:15 You keep avoiding that simple fact. God's people do not spend eternity sinning. To assume one can continue to sin for eternity is not only not good news; it's completely sick and twisted.

How can those in heaven sin??? so we cannot spend eternity sinning can we, was it not Paul who said,

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

and so we battle on till in the twinkling of an eye we are all changed.

You cannot admit imperfection, because that would make you a liar, I can admit my imperfection, because I am a man under Gods grace, and that no man can take away from me, no matter how much he or the devil tries to fill us "imperfect" people with guilt. Jesus took all that guilt away.

 

[mjrhealth]

No doubt there are some jealous people out there, but that is beside the point. You're still ignoring the fact that Christ's sins only cover sins committed under the Old Covenant. You're never going to be able to get past that

Oh so there is a limit to Gods grace,,,,,

 

[shnarkle]

You cannot admit imperfection, because that would make you a liar,

I have never had any problem admitting imperfection. You are the liar. Go ahead and post where I have ever claimed I am perfect.

I am a man under Gods grace, and that no man can take away from me, no matter how much he or the devil tries to fill us "imperfect" people with guilt. Jesus took all that guilt away.

Now you're lumping me in with the devil's attempt to fill you with guilt. That's blatant trolling

 

[shnarkle]

Oh so there is a limit to Gods grace,,,,,

Hebrews 9:15 explicitly points out that only the sins covered under the Old Testament are covered. God's grace is not an invitation to sin with impunity as so many lost souls believe. God's grace conforms the new creature into Christ. That's how grace operates There is no limit to God's grace, it simply grabs hold of the sinner and converts them. It doesn't just sit there and watch the sinner continue to sin. That's a false gospel.