Dreams

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Hidden In Him

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Amen.
I tried to write about my experiences,...and was glad to see Hidden in Him jump in here too.

But Ron , I often think that when reading dozens of post on here each day!!
People seem to enjoy talking ABOUT God, but very few write about their experience WITH Him. :oops:

Bless you...good thread.

I think the argument that Joel 2:28 is only for the Jews is a false one, as it is already beginning to be fulfilled among the church, not the Jews. There have been a number of strong visions of God given to the church over the last 2-3 decades that have been published and circulated widely, but I will say in all honesty that the passage suggests they will be more numerous and a more significant part of the church's walk with God than they are at present. I liken it to the present state of Pentecostalism. Some walk in true spiritual gifts, but it is more few and far between right now, and there are too many who still operate in flesh. So, too, are there many who might otherwise be used of God where dreams and visions are concerned, but they are still walking in the flesh more than in the Spirit, with the possibility of God using them in such things being extremely limited.
 
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Naomi25

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Does not change the fact Joel was not fulfilled at Pentecost.

I don't think that's really up to you to say, is it? Peter quoted Joel to prove why the people gathered were seeing what they were seeing...in other words...why the Apostles were not drunk.

But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: -Acts 2:13–16


You will notice that Peter uses Joel to answer specifically to the charge that they were behaving strangely. As for it "being fulfilled" then...I think it's clear that Peter is saying that it's fulfillment is beginning then. When the Spirit fell, he began working in the people of God in miraculous ways. And indeed, scripture bears testiment to such wonders. While the ultimate fulfillment is, of course, yet to come, we can even say that there have even been signs in the heavens; we've had blood moons and solar eclipses...in fact, a solar eclipse occured when Christ died on the cross.
So...how can we say that Joel is NOT being fulfilled? That it did not start at that moment when the Disciples were infilled with the Spirit and began speaking the languages of everyone gathered there. That was Peter's meaning when he used Joel...."look...it is not wine, it is the Spirit, as promised in the last days!".


I understand you really dislike rapture and dispensationalism.
Yes, it would be correct to say I think Dispensationalism is, as a system, in error. However, you are very wrong to say I dislike the Rapture. I long for the Rapture. I just view it as occuring at a different time then you, and probably under different circumstances. But, I still view it as a very biblical teaching...one that calls on us to see it as our blessed hope.

Joel is a prophecy to Israel, not the church.
Just because you keep repeating that, doesn't make it true, sorry. When Joel speaks about "pouring out my Spirit"....he is talking about the New Covenant...the one where the Holy Spirit is given to indwell. That...is the Church. Any Jew who receives the Holy Spirit in this Age, has become part of the Church. One people in Christ.


Joel 2:25 New International Version (NIV)
25 “I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten—
the great locust and the young locust,
the other locusts and the locust swarma]">[a]—
my great army that I sent among you.

Joel 2:27-32 New International Version (NIV)


27 Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the Lord your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed.


The Day of the Lord
28 “And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,

I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.a]">[a]

Day of the Lord, not Pentecost. During the tribulation.

No church present.

While I am pleasently surprised you have used scripture to try and prove your point, I still disagree, sorry. Peter uses Joel 2:28-32 to apply to this age, not the previous section, not what comes after it. And, if you read the whole Chapter 2, you can see why. It's almost like the prophet vision changes focus, from near, to far, then to near again. He goes from seemingly talking to National Israel, to a time in the future, before the 'great and awesome day of the Lord'..and then back to the Nation at hand again. And what helps us mark it out as different is how the Spirit will be poured out. In the OT, the Spirit didn't work through all people. Through the prophets, and various 'chosen' ones, yes, but most...no. It is only in the Church age, after Christ left, that he sent the promised 'Helper'...to "all flesh". That marks it rather specifically. And Peter confirms it by quoting it under the Spirit's influence.
So...no. No giant locuts, and not for National Israel...for the Church.
 
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CoreIssue

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I don't think that's really up to you to say, is it? Peter quoted Joel to prove why the people gathered were seeing what they were seeing...in other words...why the Apostles were not drunk.

But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”
But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: -Acts 2:13–16


You will notice that Peter uses Joel to answer specifically to the charge that they were behaving strangely. As for it "being fulfilled" then...I think it's clear that Peter is saying that it's fulfillment is beginning then. When the Spirit fell, he began working in the people of God in miraculous ways. And indeed, scripture bears testiment to such wonders. While the ultimate fulfillment is, of course, yet to come, we can even say that there have even been signs in the heavens; we've had blood moons and solar eclipses...in fact, a solar eclipse occured when Christ died on the cross.
So...how can we say that Joel is NOT being fulfilled? That it did not start at that moment when the Disciples were infilled with the Spirit and began speaking the languages of everyone gathered there. That was Peter's meaning when he used Joel...."look...it is not wine, it is the Spirit, as promised in the last days!".



Yes, it would be correct to say I think Dispensationalism is, as a system, in error. However, you are very wrong to say I dislike the Rapture. I long for the Rapture. I just view it as occuring at a different time then you, and probably under different circumstances. But, I still view it as a very biblical teaching...one that calls on us to see it as our blessed hope.


Just because you keep repeating that, doesn't make it true, sorry. When Joel speaks about "pouring out my Spirit"....he is talking about the New Covenant...the one where the Holy Spirit is given to indwell. That...is the Church. Any Jew who receives the Holy Spirit in this Age, has become part of the Church. One people in Christ.




While I am pleasently surprised you have used scripture to try and prove your point, I still disagree, sorry. Peter uses Joel 2:28-32 to apply to this age, not the previous section, not what comes after it. And, if you read the whole Chapter 2, you can see why. It's almost like the prophet vision changes focus, from near, to far, then to near again. He goes from seemingly talking to National Israel, to a time in the future, before the 'great and awesome day of the Lord'..and then back to the Nation at hand again. And what helps us mark it out as different is how the Spirit will be poured out. In the OT, the Spirit didn't work through all people. Through the prophets, and various 'chosen' ones, yes, but most...no. It is only in the Church age, after Christ left, that he sent the promised 'Helper'...to "all flesh". That marks it rather specifically. And Peter confirms it by quoting it under the Spirit's influence.
So...no. No giant locuts, and not for National Israel...for the Church.

I post the versus from Joel. Obviously you didn't read.
 

Naomi25

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I post the versus from Joel. Obviously you didn't read.
Sure I did, that's why I replied about them. If you didn't like my reply, sorry, but I most certainly read and replied.
 

Naomi25

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Try all you want, this does not prove what you claim.
If you would notice in my reply, I do not attempt to "prove my claim" by hot air alone.
It's quite simple. You are attempting to state Peter was applying a larger chunk of Joel 2 at Pentecost than he actually quoted and therefore...in reality...did apply to Pentecost.
That's not hot air or "trying" on my part...just a very simple pointing out of facts, which you can confirm youself by reading Acts 2 and by eyeballing how much Peter quoted.
 

CoreIssue

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If you would notice in my reply, I do not attempt to "prove my claim" by hot air alone.
It's quite simple. You are attempting to state Peter was applying a larger chunk of Joel 2 at Pentecost than he actually quoted and therefore...in reality...did apply to Pentecost.
That's not hot air or "trying" on my part...just a very simple pointing out of facts, which you can confirm youself by reading Acts 2 and by eyeballing how much Peter quoted.

Peter was not trying to apply Joel to Acts at all. He was comparing and contrasting. Just saying things like this were not unexpected.
 

Naomi25

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Peter was not trying to apply Joel to Acts at all. He was comparing and contrasting. Just saying things like this were not unexpected.
Well, you go on believing that....clearly reason and obvious biblical fact will do nothing to sway your fast-held belief. But, know that 99% of theologians and...well...plain folk who read the bible see it differently. Maybe you could take a poll.
 

farouk

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Well, you go on believing that....clearly reason and obvious biblical fact will do nothing to sway your fast-held belief. But, know that 99% of theologians and...well...plain folk who read the bible see it differently. Maybe you could take a poll.
I don't pay a lot of attention to my dreams... o_O
 

CoreIssue

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Well, you go on believing that....clearly reason and obvious biblical fact will do nothing to sway your fast-held belief. But, know that 99% of theologians and...well...plain folk who read the bible see it differently. Maybe you could take a poll.

False statement.

Reading something incorrectly does not make it true.
 

Helen

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I tend to feel the same about my dreams...

There is a great difference , between 'just dreaming'...and a 'God given dream'..
When we get real "God dreams"..we know it..and we know that God was speaking through it. Most dreams are just rubbish dreams.
 

farouk

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There is a great difference , between 'just dreaming'...and a 'God given dream'..
When we get real "God dreams"..we know it..and we know that God was speaking through it. Most dreams are just rubbish dreams.
I do much prefer to meditate on Scripture... :)
 

Helen

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I do much prefer to meditate on Scripture... :)

Well that sounds very spiritual...but...when you get a God dream you wouldn't say "But Lord, I'd much rather have it in scripture!!" LOL
NO, you will be knocked back on your heals...and then on your face before Him.
A God dream is powerful , humbling , and never , never ever can be forgotten ...it sticks ...A direct word from God always "sticks.".
 

farouk

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Well that sounds very spiritual...but...when you get a God dream you would say "But Lord, I'd much rather have it in scripture!!"
NO, you will be knocked back on your heals...and then on your face before Him.
A God dream is powerful , humbling , and never , never ever can be forgotten ...it sticks ...A direct word from God always "sticks.".
...but unlike Scripture the dream is not authoritative...
 

Naomi25

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I don't pay a lot of attention to my dreams... o_O
99% of them, neither do I! But...I think if you've ever had one that is spiritually charged, it's not the kind of thing you forget or shrug off as a 'weird dream'. There is a very real presence that, in my case, could still be felt even upon waking. It's only happened perhaps 3 times in my life, but for me, it was enough for me to believe that God does, indeed, use dreams to personally encourage, strengthen and protect.
If I had to take a stab at why it happens, I'd say that it's probably in direct response to Satanic attacks. We know Christians cannot be demon possessed. But we can be oppressed. And I think at times its very easy for demons to attack a person of faith in their sleep, when their conscious mind is not able to counter such an attack or presence with prayer or reason. But...we are not alone in our walk and we are not without protection.
This is all, of course, speculation, which I am basing off my experiences and not scriptural proof. But, we have nothing in scripture that says it cannot be so...
 

farouk

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99% of them, neither do I! But...I think if you've ever had one that is spiritually charged, it's not the kind of thing you forget or shrug off as a 'weird dream'. There is a very real presence that, in my case, could still be felt even upon waking. It's only happened perhaps 3 times in my life, but for me, it was enough for me to believe that God does, indeed, use dreams to personally encourage, strengthen and protect.
If I had to take a stab at why it happens, I'd say that it's probably in direct response to Satanic attacks. We know Christians cannot be demon possessed. But we can be oppressed. And I think at times its very easy for demons to attack a person of faith in their sleep, when their conscious mind is not able to counter such an attack or presence with prayer or reason. But...we are not alone in our walk and we are not without protection.
This is all, of course, speculation, which I am basing off my experiences and not scriptural proof. But, we have nothing in scripture that says it cannot be so...
There's a sense that heightened awareness of anything can drive the believer to the Word.
 

amadeus

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...but unlike Scripture the dream is not authoritative...
What have you said? What does authoritative mean? If God sent a person a dream how is that for authority. So then the right question to ask might be, is the dream from God? If it is, why would it have less authority than a scripture sent from God?