Easter

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BreadOfLife

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Please... You are just making up things as you go. Don't bother me with garbage anymore.
READ your Bible . . .

Esther 4:15-16
Then Esther sent this reply to Mordecai: “Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my attendants will fast as you do. WHEN THIS IS DONE, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish.”


She saw the King ON the 3rd day - BEFORE the fast was done.

I haven't "made up" anything.
YOU'RE just angry because you got schooled by a Catholic . . .
 
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FHII

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Esther 4:16 KJV
Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.

Even your version says and when this is done". Fine. Then she didn't go until after it was done.

You are making stuff up as you go.
 

FHII

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They knew that it was over as soon as Esther SAW the King.
I wouldn't have been efficacious AFTER she saw the King.
Yet, she didn't go until after they finished!?!?

You are making this up as you go.

The fast was 72 hours. There is no way around it.
 

BreadOfLife

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Yet, she didn't go until after they finished!?!?
You are making this up as you go.
The fast was 72 hours. There is no way around it.
WRONG.
There is NOTHING in the text to indicate that the people fasted for 72 hours.

They were requested to fast for 3 days and 3 nights. Esther went to see the King BEFORE the fast had reached the full 3 days and 3 nights.

As I have repeatedly educated you - the Jewish idiom exists that ANY prt of a day or night represents the WHOLE day or night. There is NOTHING you can do about this - no matter HOW much you disapprove personally.
 

FHII

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There is NOTHING in the text to indicate that the people fasted for 72 hours.
Yeah... There is. And you know it.

They were requested to fast for 3 days and 3 nights. E
See? You did know it.

Esther went to see the King BEFORE the fast had reached the full 3 days and 3 nights.
Well, there is nothing to indicate they stopped the fast when she went to see the king. Now you said they stopped WHEN she went to see the King, but also quoted a version of the verse that says after they were finished ("When this is done", and you put it in bold and blue print), then she would go see the king.

Which is it?

As I have repeatedly educated you
Please... You cut and paste, make statements without reading your own references, retract references (the one you did was a good retractions, seeing it was from a Nazi, by the way), contradict yourself and constantly have to update your stance based off the information I dig out for you.

Who's educating who? Your arguments are causing me to research and in doing so, yes I am learning new things, but you have taught me nothing.

Esther called for a fast of 3 days and 3 nights. Jewish fasts (and fasts of other religions) all follow patterns and are not subject to partial days, nights and idioms. You fail to acknowledge this.

Esther on the 3rd day went to see the king. That does not mean the fast stopped even though it appears that she did so before the fast ended. There is nothing to indicate it did stop. How could it? How could everyone know what was happening inside the palace to the minute? Carrier pigeons? CNN? Texting? Word of mouth? I seriously doubt it.

The fast was 72 hours.thats how long a Jewish 3 day and 3 night fast lasts. She went to see the king while the fast was still happening.

But yes, there are also other possibilities. At least two others. But... Those are my cards to play and yours to figure out. "Educate" me on why they aren't correct!

How can you do that when I haven't given them to you? Well... You already told me my gospel references are out of context when I haven't given them yet. So... There ya go. Work that wisdom again!

I am not like that... I am not afraid of exposing the truth. I don't play those games. So here they are:

1. When did the "on the third day" count start? Did it start when she said it, or when Mordeaci fully completed his task in verse 17?
My highly educated opinion is that it began at sunset or sunrise after Mordeaci completed his Task. Depending on timing, Esther may have started 12-24 hours earlier than everyone else.

2. "The third day" is an idiom. So, the way this particular idiom works (according to some of the very references YOU, BOL, gave me) it could also mean, "after 3 days".

So, Esther 5:1 could read:"Now it came to pass after three days [she went to see the king].. "

Even your "Markan" time line testifies of that! But that's not the reference that you gave that I am talking about. One of your references mentioned Jocephas (whom I have read, have you?) Who used "on the third day" and "after three days" interchangeably. Not 3 days and 3 nights though.

So, if you are done trying to prove that a Jewish fast of 3 days and 3 nights can mean a mere 12 hours and one minute to 18 hours (and again, try telling that to any Hebrew) then I can give you a timeline.

But, if you want to keep feeding me garbage... By all means go ahead.

Don't respond until I comment on the Markan timeline! (Snicker!)
 

BreadOfLife

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Yeah... There is. And you know it.
See? You did know it.
Well, there is nothing to indicate they stopped the fast when she went to see the king. Now you said they stopped WHEN she went to see the King, but also quoted a version of the verse that says after they were finished ("When this is done", and you put it in bold and blue print), then she would go see the king.

Which is it?
NEVER said that.
THIS is what I posted:
Esther 4:15-16
Then Esther sent this reply to Mordecai: “Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my attendants will fast as you do. WHEN THIS IS DONE, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish.”


The "When this is done" is referring to "when this fast is done - I will go see the king".
This is the CRUX of my entire case. As far as they were concerned - the fast WAS done in the middle of the 3rd day - BEFORE the 72 hours was up.
Please... You cut and paste, make statements without reading your own references, retract references (the one you did was a good retractions, seeing it was from a Nazi, by the way), contradict yourself and constantly have to update your stance based off the information I dig out for you.

Who's educating who? Your arguments are causing me to research and in doing so, yes I am learning new things, but you have taught me nothing.

Esther called for a fast of 3 days and 3 nights. Jewish fasts (and fasts of other religions) all follow patterns and are not subject to partial days, nights and idioms. You fail to acknowledge this.

Esther on the 3rd day went to see the king. That does not mean the fast stopped even though it appears that she did so before the fast ended. There is nothing to indicate it did stop. How could it? How could everyone know what was happening inside the palace to the minute? Carrier pigeons? CNN? Texting? Word of mouth? I seriously doubt it.

The fast was 72 hours.thats how long a Jewish 3 day and 3 night fast lasts. She went to see the king while the fast was still happening.

But yes, there are also other possibilities. At least two others. But... Those are my cards to play and yours to figure out. "Educate" me on why they aren't correct!

How can you do that when I haven't given them to you? Well... You already told me my gospel references are out of context when I haven't given them yet. So... There ya go. Work that wisdom again!

I am not like that... I am not afraid of exposing the truth. I don't play those games. So here they are:

1. When did the "on the third day" count start? Did it start when she said it, or when Mordeaci fully completed his task in verse 17?
My highly educated opinion is that it began at sunset or sunrise after Mordeaci completed his Task. Depending on timing, Esther may have started 12-24 hours earlier than everyone else.

2. "The third day" is an idiom. So, the way this particular idiom works (according to some of the very references YOU, BOL, gave me) it could also mean, "after 3 days".

So, Esther 5:1 could read:"Now it came to pass after three days [she went to see the king].. "

Even your "Markan" time line testifies of that! But that's not the reference that you gave that I am talking about. One of your references mentioned Jocephas (whom I have read, have you?) Who used "on the third day" and "after three days" interchangeably. Not 3 days and 3 nights though.

So, if you are done trying to prove that a Jewish fast of 3 days and 3 nights can mean a mere 12 hours and one minute to 18 hours (and again, try telling that to any Hebrew) then I can give you a timeline.

But, if you want to keep feeding me garbage... By all means go ahead.

Don't respond until I comment on the Markan timeline! (Snicker!)
There is NOTHING in the text to indicate that the fast lasted longer than 2 1/2 days - period.

You get into trouble when you start adding things to Scripture that simply AREN'T there. that's why you have tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects ALL teaching different doctrines based on somebody adding something NEW like Sola Scriptura or Sola Fide . . .

Oh, and, by the way - Esther 5:1 DOESN'T read "Now it came to pass after three days [she went to see the king].. "
It says, "ON the third day . . ."

PS - Never read "Jocephas" - but I HAVE read Josephus . . .
 

CoreIssue

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Esther 5 New International Version (NIV)
Esther’s Request to the King
5 On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king’s hall. The king was sitting on his royal throne in the hall, facing the entrance. 2 When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter.

This leaves the question. On the third day when? Just before sunset?

If so at sunset a new day began.

My point is don't make assumptions when you don't know the facts.
 

FHII

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this fast is done - I will go see the king".
This is the CRUX of my entire case. As far as they were concerned - the fast WAS done in the middle of the 3rd day - BEFORE the 72 hours was up.
Weak. You still ignore Jewish tradition that is soundly established while upholding an elledged Jewish idiom that you cannot establish.

Oh, and, by the way - Esther 5:1 DOESN'T read "Now it came to pass after three days [she went to see the king].. "
It says, "ON the third day . . .
Yea.. that's right. It doesn't. But your own faulty view on idioms allows it.

PS - Never read "Jocephas" - but I HAVE read Josephus . . .
Based on your history, I doubt that. You haven't really read any of the other references you gave and that has been proven. Why should I believe you read this?.

You have a credibility problem happening.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Like I said before - the mere fact that you can't differentiate between "Roman" Catholic and Catholic simply magnifies your ignorance.

Thanks for at least recognizing that the Early Church was indeed Catholic . . .

The Early Church was indeed not universal, viz., 'Catholic'; it was <early> like you said before and now.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Your argument is that Jesus went on the next day to Jerusalem. He travelled up from Jericho on the Friday and arrived at Lazarus where he stayed in Bethany and the next day, rested until sunset, because the "Law" required that people could only travel a small distance on the Sabbath.


Hokaai mater! This isn't MY 'argument'; its ALL, yours and only yours!

But if you have read my hundreds and even thousands of posts wherein I have consistently maintained for fifty years by now it must be, Jesus travelled to and must have arrived at Jerusalem Bethany for convenience be understood at Jerusalem as well, on Abib 8-9, visited where Lazarus stayed in Bethany over Abib 9 a Sabbath Day that year, where He was served a meal, supper or dinner doesn't matter which, then "the following day in the morning" the TENTH day of the First Month in that year a SUNDAY entered the city of Jerusalem as fulfilment of it's PASSOVER "BONE-DAY" ESSENTIALITY. (Ezekiel 40:1)
Where do you come from bringing along all your legal burdens about travelling distances <within the Israelite tradition> (#118) et cetera? Which is the BIGGEST BULL in WCism.
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Went the sun had gone down the people began to come out to Bethany to see Lazarus and Jesus and so Jesus began to walk to Jerusalem to met the crowds on the first day of the week after the sun had set on the Sabbath day and the first day of the week had begun. Jesus riding on a ass into Jerusalem happened on Saturday night our time during the twilight after the sun had set.

Fantasy...
 

Jay Ross

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Hokaai mater! This isn't MY 'argument'; its ALL, yours and only yours!

But if you have read my hundreds and even thousands of posts wherein I have consistently maintained for fifty years by now it must be, Jesus travelled to and must have arrived at Jerusalem Bethany for convenience be understood at Jerusalem as well, on Abib 8-9, visited where Lazarus stayed in Bethany over Abib 9 a Sabbath Day that year, where He was served a meal, supper or dinner doesn't matter which, then "the following day in the morning" the TENTH day of the First Month in that year a SUNDAY entered the city of Jerusalem as fulfilment of it's PASSOVER "BONE-DAY" ESSENTIALITY. (Ezekiel 40:1)
Where do you come from bringing along all your legal burdens about travelling distances <within the Israelite tradition> (#118) et cetera? Which is the BIGGEST BULL in WCism.

I am so sorry that you perceive that I am following your example of being dogmatic in presenting my case. I wonder why you find it so necessary to defend your musings as if only your words and explanation can be followed to gain any understanding about the time surrounding the crucifixion of Christ. You are a bible student, and sadly, I have nothing but pity for anyone caught up in the deception of that cult.

Shalom
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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So your argument claiming that it actually happened after the sun had arisen on the first day of the week for the Israelites has been a wrongly understood tradition of the "church" for many years. As a bible student you have not carefully considered the facts as presented in the Scriptures.

For one thing surpassing my hatred for error, my love for Scripture-truth, I beg you consider just John 12:12 where the inspired word of John reads, 'Tehi epaurion ho ochlos polus .. elabon ta bai-ia...' -- "With the sun rising/risen in the east big crowds took branches...".
You are mistaking Mark 11:11B for Mark 11:11A. Mark 11:11A=John 12:12; Mark 11:11B≠John 12:12.

That this has always been the understood tradition of the Church, for me must be attributed to the Providence of the Almighty God who SAVED this truth from getting spoiled like everything else with regard to Jesus' Last Passover Suffering of Yahweh. Praise be to the Lord!
 

Jay Ross

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The RSV huh?

The simple fact that it is owned by the National Council of Churches of Christ in the United States of America
Is enough reason to reject it.
Revised Standard Version - Wikipedia

But there's even more:

A Critique of the Revised Standard Version

Do you find anything good in what others may write or do you deliberately set out to put down anyone else whatever they may be saying.

As for the fallibility of any particular English translations, no translations is without faults within their particular translation as can be determined when considering the source texts from which the translation was derived.

As I said previously, people are welcome to use the document as a basis of their study to either confirm or reject the manner in which I have arranged the scriptural verses by the use of their favourite translation.

Have you tried to confirm the document by considering the scriptural references using your preferred translation or have you just lashed out for the sake of lashing out?

Shalom
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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You are wrong, as from my attachment to post #85 you would have read that I would suggest that Christ was crucified on the Day of preparation for the Passover which occurred on the Friday, a Sabbath Day within the Israelite tradition which was then followed by the Sabbath day of worship. It seems to me that your scholarship is a little flawed.

So you're not a WCist? You're a Friday-cist? Or you're a Thursday crucifixion AND burial errorist?
 

Jay Ross

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For one thing surpassing my hatred for error, my love for Scripture-truth, I beg you consider just John 12:12 where the inspired word of John reads, 'Tehi epaurion ho ochlos polus .. elabon ta bai-ia...' -- "With the sun rising/risen in the east big crowds took branches...".
You are mistaking Mark 11:11B for Mark 11:11A. Mark 11:11A=John 12:12; Mark 11:11B≠John 12:12.

That this has always been the understood tradition of the Church, for me must be attributed to the Providence of the Almighty God who SAVED this truth from getting spoiled like everything else with regard to Jesus' Last Passover Suffering of Yahweh. Praise be to the Lord!

Sadly, my KJV interlinear does not tell me that the sun was rising in the east as you are suggesting. Here is the transliterated plus the English translation.

Teé epaúrion ho óchlos polús ho elthoón eis teén heorteén akoúsantes hóti érchetai ho Ieesoús eis Hierosóluma

On the next day - people - much - that were come - to - the - feast, - when they - heard - that - was coming - Jesus - to - Jerusalem,

But that is how my interlinear presents the translation of the Greek words. It does not match up with your desired outcome.

Shalom
 

Jay Ross

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So you're not a WCist? You're a Friday-cist? Or you're a Thursday crucifixion AND burial errorist?

I am happy to discuss with you my views but I will not put up with a bulling and name calling approach that you are presently resorting to.

Shalom
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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You are wrong, as from my attachment to post #85 you would have read that I would suggest that Christ was crucified on the Day of preparation for the Passover which occurred on the Friday, a Sabbath Day within the Israelite tradition which was then followed by the Sabbath day of worship. It seems to me that your scholarship is a little flawed.
What occurred on which day of the week?
Christ was crucified on: "The Preparation OF the Passover" John 19:14 which was "the first day -of the passover- they KILLED the passover on" 2Chronicles 35 Mark 14:12 Matthew 26:17 Luke 22:7 John 13:1 1Corinthians 11:23, which did NOT occur on 'Good Friday' within Roman Catholic tradition, but on the Fifth Day of the week ('Thursday') which was then followed by "That-Day-great-day-of-sabbath" within the OT tradition of Law, of passover, in fact, "on the in-between-sabbath" (Acts 13:42) <Friday, a Sabbath Day within the Israelite tradition>, which was then followed by <the Sabbath day of worship> in fact "on the TO-HEAR-THE-WORD-OF-GOD-SABBATH" (Acts 13:44) within New Testament tradition of Scripture.

That's how it seems to me. Now you owe me, show me where it's <flawed>!
 
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