Emotion replacing study

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amadeus

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As I maintain, as long as there is another prescription for putting all our ducks in a row, for dotting all our i's and crossing all our t's, the opening of the Word of God to a naive Christian will mean he must sufficiently adopt a presumed methodology. Just read and let the Lord do as He has promised, to lead and guide into all truth, for it is God Who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. It is He that will make our way perfect, Who will perfect that which is lacking in our faith, and the One Who will arise from off the pages, for they testify of Him.
You place a lot of hope in what is written and that is not an evil thing. You also speak of the work of God in it all which is an even more necessary part. Just be careful not to put God in a box. You or I or the other guy may have adopted some method to serving God, but God can never be so contained although some try to do just that to Him.
One of the major failings of the church today is the insistence upon formulas and methodologies that will force God to move when all we need do is to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, and with all our souls, and with all our MINDS. Within the soul is the mind, the heart, emotions, intents, imaginations, and will. I'm not assuming we are addressing atheists on this forum. The people here are Christians, if I have that right. They have regenerated spirits, are learning slowly to mortify the deeds of the flesh, lay aside every weight, run the race, and, through proper study habits will begin to understand what is not wood, hay and stubble.
I would hesitate to say that every one here is learning as you say... although I hope that they are. Some here as perhaps on any Christian forum are stuck in one gear which they think is forward, but it is not. They have an agenda and they seemingly cannot hear anything else. They already have all of the answers [or act as if they do].

Ravi Zacharias' great effort to reach the world is through the intellect, the mind. It is the part that he rightly judges to be the least exercised in the body of Christ. There are huge pockets of anti-intellectuals throughout the body of Christ, which has slowed the ability to answer many of the hard questions posed by the world to believers. The mind is a terrible thing to waste, and he well knows this by the title of his programs, "Let My People Think".
Well I am no anti-intellectual, but neither do I believe that without intellectuals and their ways we will necessarily lose our way to God. Thinkers may also lose their way if they lead with their own head instead of recognizing that Jesus is always our Head.

You say the mind is a terrible thing to waste, but I would say that anything God has made is a terrible thing to waste by either not using it or misusing it.

As a young Christian I was very early told that there was no value to my reading until God breaths on it. Much time I wasted waiting for that breath to turn anything I read into flesh, or revelation. Instead, I learned that it is good for me to take His yoke upon me and LEARN of Him, partially by giving heed to reading, and let God be God.

I on the other hand long ago [no man told me this] learned to stop and talk to and listen to God between chapters whenever I am reading my Bibles. I am all for letting God be God, but does He not want to interact directly with us perhaps especially when we are reading what He anointed men of God to write? Is He such a impersonal far removed entity that we cannot know Him? Jesus spoke of both "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" so that we can see and hear God. Solomon wrote these words a thousand years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18, and then Paul wrote about eventually seeing "face to face". If we read the Bible with no vision, will we not then lead any who follow us into a ditch?
 
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Stan B

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Ravi Zacharias' great effort to reach the world is through the intellect, the mind. It is the part that he rightly judges to be the least exercised in the body of Christ. There are huge pockets of anti-intellectuals throughout the body of Christ, which has slowed the ability to answer many of the hard questions posed by the world to believers. The mind is a terrible thing to waste, and he well knows this by the title of his programs, "Let My People Think".

Ravi's teaching is not for everyone. It takes a lot of mental focus to understand his message. He is not for light-weights!

Brings back memories of my late wife, when 50 years ago, she and Ravi's two sisters were good friends; and just a couple days ago, my son gave me a copy of Ravi's book: Jesus Among Other Gods. Something we will be going through together. He has his own copy.

Ravi is an awesome and unique teacher!
 
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Hope in God

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You place a lot of hope in what is written and that is not an evil thing. You also speak of the work of God in it all which is an even more necessary part. Just be careful not to put God in a box. You or I or the other guy may have adopted some method to serving God, but God can never be so contained although some try to do just that to Him.

I do believe the Lord is well able to make rocks cry out and jackasses to speak. He does as He pleases and seldom with our foreknowledge. Where you are interpreting I have Jesus in a box makes me see that you are not hearing what I write. God is able to do exceedingly above all I can ask or think, which, as I see it, puts no limits on Him. The containment you sense, as I see it, may be my strong insistence upon the use of a systematic approach to teaching. I see it as being God's line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little way plan to bring us to the place where we have gained a vision, not a hallucination or transfiguration, but rather purpose. That word "vision" means purpose. Without a purpose, people perish, as they do for the lack of knowledge.


I would hesitate to say that every one here is learning as you say... although I hope that they are. Some here as perhaps on any Christian forum are stuck in one gear which they think is forward, but it is not. They have an agenda and they seemingly cannot hear anything else. They already have all of the answers [or act as if they do].

I have gone to the trouble of refreshing myself in the things I was taught many years ago, as to not let them slip, and in the process offered some of that training on a website for newbies. Admittedly, it is extremely difficult to find Christians today who think it important enough to put action to what I suppose they received when they were first enlightened, a desire for the sincere milk of of the word that they may grow thereby.. Most simply do not care one iota.

I have seen several on this forum whose incessant long winded writings remind me of the steer messages I was subject to in my first years as a believer, defined as perhaps containing a point here and a point there with a lot of bull in the middle. Trying to get those folks to realize they are assertive, condemning, high-minded and under-educated is a task I don't wish to take on. I prefer to block their interference. The problem with those folks is always their beginnings. They never were well taught, having heaped unto themselves whatever was within their grasp and now blast their endless opinions without grace while stepping all over everybody.


Well I am no anti-intellectual, but neither do I believe that without intellectuals and their ways we will necessarily lose our way to God. Thinkers may also lose their way if they lead with their own head instead of recognizing that Jesus is always our Head.

My answer to this is to look at the body of Christ today and what those thousands and thousands of "believers" walk into as they enter megachurches to buy books, hear smooth sounding motivational stories from one, while another will insist all in attendance are gods. That whole spiritually unprofitable mess has made multi-millionaires out of so many nobodies who saw their chance and took it, and who speak nothing other than sweet, unchallenging messages whose source is nothing more than to build financially successful kingdoms for themselves. One just retired after "earning" for himself $746 million over a period of decades. And, only recently, say, within the last ten years, have protesters emerged to speak against such error ridden teachers and their Oral Roberts seed faith fantasy.

Few realize that false teachers are not identified in Scripture as being
openly wicked, harsh and/or mean spirited, but rather are described more as being nice, kind, gentlemanly, fair-minded, humble, and even sexually seductive. And still "believers" walk into those arenas not having a clue they are gaining nothing of any significance. Young people attend by the tens of thousands at one location where worship is nothing more than rock and roll with weak lyrics, endless repetitive phrasing, and the audience falling upon one another in the darkness. It is the perfect example of emotionalism void of truth, and the kids love to have it so.

You say the mind is a terrible thing to waste, but I would say that anything God has made is a terrible thing to waste by either not using it or misusing it.


I on the other hand long ago [no man told me this] learned to stop and talk to and listen to God between chapters whenever I am reading my Bibles. I am all for letting God be God, but does He not want to interact directly with us perhaps especially when we are reading what He anointed men of God to write? Is He such a impersonal far removed entity that we cannot know Him? Jesus spoke of both "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" so that we can see and hear God. Solomon wrote these words a thousand years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem:

I sometimes will sit quietly, not say anything except to let the Lord know my ears and heart are open. When I study, things stand out by the mere fact that Jesus' words are spirit and life.
 

Hope in God

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Ravi's teaching is not for everyone. It takes a lot of mental focus to understand his message. He is not for light-weights!

Brings back memories of my late wife, when 50 years ago, she and Ravi's two sisters were good friends; and just a couple days ago, my son gave me a copy of Ravi's book: Jesus Among Other Gods. Something we will be going through together. He has his own copy.

Ravi is an awesome and unique teacher!

I have learned a great deal from Ravi and use his logic in my attempts to lead others to the Lord, especially his teachings on morality, eternity, accountability and charity, as well as there being a Moral Law Giver which includes his explanation regarding good and evil -- if there is good, then there must be evil for which to differentiate between the two, and there must be a Moral Law Giver who has given us a guide.

Also, his talks on an Intelligent Designer are great to explain to others, where he centers on the existence of DNA and its billions of bits of information and that not a single living creature has the exact same DNA.

I've been listening to him for some years and own five of his books. Right now, I'm reading Can Man Live Without God. It is indeed very much a challenge as he tends to be a bit too intellectual. It is entirely unnecessary. The chapter on philosophers I enjoyed a great deal because of my interest in the historical progression of political and literary isms, but other stuff is hard to grasp in the first reading. I reread chapters all the time.
 
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amadeus

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@Hope in God
Hope in God said:
I do believe the Lord is well able to make rocks cry out and jackasses to speak. He does as He pleases and seldom with our foreknowledge. Where you are interpreting I have Jesus in a box makes me see that you are not hearing what I write. God is able to do exceedingly above all I can ask or think, which, as I see it, puts no limits on Him. The containment you sense, as I see it, may be my strong insistence upon the use of a systematic approach to teaching. I see it as being God's line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little there a little way plan to bring us to the place where we have gained a vision, not a hallucination or transfiguration, but rather purpose. That word "vision" means purpose. Without a purpose, people perish, as they do for the lack of knowledge.

I have gone to the trouble of refreshing myself in the things I was taught many years ago, as to not let them slip, and in the process offered some of that training on a website for newbies. Admittedly, it is extremely difficult to find Christians today who think it important enough to put action to what I suppose they received when they were first enlightened, a desire for the sincere milk of of the word that they may grow thereby.. Most simply do not care one iota.

I have seen several on this forum whose incessant long winded writings remind me of the steer messages I was subject to in my first years as a believer, defined as perhaps containing a point here and a point there with a lot of bull in the middle. Trying to get those folks to realize they are assertive, condemning, high-minded and under-educated is a task I don't wish to take on. I prefer to block their interference. The problem with those folks is always their beginnings. They never were well taught, having heaped unto themselves whatever was within their grasp and now blast their endless opinions without grace while stepping all over everybody.

My answer to this is to look at the body of Christ today and what those thousands and thousands of "believers" walk into as they enter megachurches to buy books, hear smooth sounding motivational stories from one, while another will insist all in attendance are gods. That whole spiritually unprofitable mess has made multi-millionaires out of so many nobodies who saw their chance and took it, and who speak nothing other than sweet, unchallenging messages whose source is nothing more than to build financially successful kingdoms for themselves. One just retired after "earning" for himself $746 million over a period of decades. And, only recently, say, within the last ten years, have protesters emerged to speak against such error ridden teachers and their Oral Roberts seed faith fantasy.

Few realize that false teachers are not identified in Scripture as being openly wicked, harsh and/or mean spirited, but rather are described more as being nice, kind, gentlemanly, fair-minded, humble, and even sexually seductive. And still "believers" walk into those arenas not having a clue they are gaining nothing of any significance. Young people attend by the tens of thousands at one location where worship is nothing more than rock and roll with weak lyrics, endless repetitive phrasing, and the audience falling upon one another in the darkness. It is the perfect example of emotionalism void of truth, and the kids love to have it so.

I sometimes will sit quietly, not say anything except to let the Lord know my ears and heart are open. When I study, things stand out by the mere fact that Jesus' words are spirit and life.
Thank you for your kind and complete reply. You and I are apart on some things, but perhaps not as much as some might think on many of the more important things. I suspect your experience is in mainstream church, but that I don't hold that against you. Please don't hold my experience against me. I have never belonged to such a church and have only rarely ever visited them.

Most of my personal experience in churches is in the Pentecostal area, non trinitarian types, which automatically make me a cultist to some. The largest group of which I was ever a part was Catholicism and that was over 50 years ago. A lot of water under the bridge since then. God has not moved, but I have! For a little over a year now, for the first time in a great many years, I have belonged to no local church group. I was a minister of sorts at the last one, but when they put out my old pastor, I went too. I've visited places since then but it seems unlikely that I will stick anywhere any more at my age. I know in that year I have not let up with God in spite of my disconnection.
 
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mjrhealth

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As I maintain, as long as there is another prescription for putting all our ducks in a row, for dotting all our i's and crossing all our t's, the opening of the Word of God to a naive Christian will mean he must sufficiently adopt a presumed methodology. Just read and let the Lord do as He has promised, to lead and guide into all truth, for it is God Who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. It is He that will make our way perfect, Who will perfect that which is lacking in our faith, and the One Who will arise from off the pages, for they testify of Him.

One of the major failings of the church today is the insistence upon formulas and methodologies that will force God to move when all we need do is to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, and with all our souls, and with all our MINDS. Within the soul is the mind, the heart, emotions, intents, imaginations, and will. I'm not assuming we are addressing atheists on this forum. The people here are Christians, if I have that right. They have regenerated spirits, are learning slowly to mortify the deeds of the flesh, lay aside every weight, run the race, and, through proper study habits will begin to understand what is not wood, hay and stubble.

Ravi Zacharias' great effort to reach the world is through the intellect, the mind. It is the part that he rightly judges to be the least exercised in the body of Christ. There are huge pockets of anti-intellectuals throughout the body of Christ, which has slowed the ability to answer many of the hard questions posed by the world to believers. The mind is a terrible thing to waste, and he well knows this by the title of his programs, "Let My People Think".

As a young Christian I was very early told that there was no value to my reading until God breaths on it. Much time I wasted waiting for that breath to turn anything I read into flesh, or revelation. Instead, I learned that it is good for me to take His yoke upon me and LEARN of Him, partially by giving heed to reading, and let God be God.
But when study takes precedence over Him who is the truth, than it is no more than an Idol set before Him. Remember the Israelites when Moses went up to have a chat with God, so they grew impatient, and built themselves a golden calf to worship, christianty did the same, too impatient to wait and hear from God so they made there own golden calf and called it the bible, and worship it more than God. Many presume to use it to tell God He is wrong, seen that often enough..
 

Hope in God

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@Hope in God

Thank you for your kind and complete reply. You and I are apart on some things, but perhaps not as much as some might think on many of the more important things. I suspect your experience is in mainstream church, but that I don't hold that against you. Please don't hold my experience against me. I have never belonged to such a church and have only rarely ever visited them.

Most of my personal experience in churches is in the Pentecostal area, non trinitarian types, which automatically make me a cultist to some. The largest group of which I was ever a part was Catholicism and that was over 50 years ago. A lot of water under the bridge since then. God has not moved, but I have! For a little over a year now, for the first time in a great many years, I have belonged to no local church group. I was a minister of sorts at the last one, but when they put out my old pastor, I went too. I've visited places since then but it seems unlikely that I will stick anywhere any more at my age. I know in that year I have not let up with God in spite of my disconnection.

We may be more alike than you think, dear brother. I know well the UPC doctrines as I was a member of one of their churches while in my beginnings. I turned to Jesus soon after an electrician shared with me the Cross as we stood in a Navy chow line one day. That night, I prayed as I was lying in my rack. This was during a deployment in the Caribbean aboard a destroyer where we were sent to play war games (target practicing) three months prior to my discharge from the Navy. Soon after our return to the States, I was Spirit filled at a beachfront home filled with tens of recently converted Jesus People. I spoke in tongues almost the moment hands were laid on me.

Following Great Lakes naval training, both my identical twin brother and I, having enlisted together, were stationed aboard the same ship, the Noa (DD-841). He was discharged earlier than me due to a disciplinary matter that allowed him to keep the classification "under honorable conditions" and left FL for TX. Eight months later, I too was discharged, after which I purchased a van I outfitted for camping.

My zeal for the Lord, by then, had eaten me up, and I wanted to share face-to-face the Cross with my brother, so I drove to TX. To my disappointment, he was not in Dallas when I reached his address, and, as I found out, he chose to backpack/hitchhike to CA, then up to the NW, and back to Dallas. After about two or three weeks living with my brother's friend who permitted me to use their apartment in anticipation of Dennis' return, in walked my filthy, road encrusted twin who initially wanted nothing to do with Jesus.

But the Lord had other plans, and within a couple of weeks, after noticing the change in me and what the Holy Spirit had done for my character and mood, Dennis became convicted and prayed the sinner's prayer. We then looked around for a church to attend while we worked for a day labor force moving furniture (how I hated that work). One night, being hungry, we stopped at a pizza parlor where we discovered a table full of Spirit filled believers from a UPC assembly. I did not know the differences in their doctrine and was very happy to have found a church home.

The UPC does not believe in the Trinity, being Jesus only adherents, and told me, since I was not sure I was baptized in water in the name of Jesus, that I was not saved, so I obliged and did that again. My hair being long and sporting a beard, was cut short as recommended. Their insistence upon tarrying at the altar for the Holy Spirit to overtake a prayerful seeker and cause him to speak in tongues baffled me. It seemed so unnecessarily super spiritual to me. For recreation, we once went to a lake where the men and women were not permitted to intermingle. The women swam on one side of the lake, and the men, the other. Still, we held on, and within a week my brother was baptized in the Holy Spirit. By then, I had begun to suspect their doctrinal leanings to not be where Jesus wanted us. During the few months we were with that group, we gained some good friends, but I felt the Lord wanted us to return to Florida where a movement of God was strong and because it was home to me.

Little did I know that the Lord's initial presence (or was it excitement) would lift in north FL after the first year or so, leaving each believer a bit bewildered and starving as they continued to hold onto the only teachings to penetrate the area: the prosperity gospel and the sheep/shepherding error. What a mess those extremes caused throughout the body in those days.

While in FL, I forced myself for years to adopt the Charismatic methodologies for wealth and happiness, and submitted myself to a young pastor who told me how to order my life. I desperately desired balance, and chose to join a Charismatic church, a several hundred member congregation whose favorite teachers included Arthur Burt, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and men from Ft. Lauderdale who preached submission: Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, and others. It was there I helped lead worship with an occasional sit-in, Phil Driscoll, during his earliest days as a rededicated Christian.

Then, out of the blue, brothers from Beaumont, TX came to town, and set up Bible training classes on the first principles of Heb. 6, which, for me, was my deliverance. The one brother who remained while the others set up their own classroom studies in other parts of the US, taught me how to rightly divide the Word, to study, and approach my growth with a vision for knowing the Word. They were all about more Word and less sign following, which was good for me. Those brothers knew the Scriptures, and were marvelous examples in that regard. I left them after 1.5 years of twice daily sessions while I completed the earning of a BA in literature at the university. After earning my degree, I packed my things, and headed back to my roots.

Fed up with it all the usual debates and nitpicking among the believing community, I left for my boyhood home in SW PA where I wrote for the county paper in the evenings, played secular music gigs at fraternal organizations, and owned and operated a bookstore. I haven't been back to "church" with any consistency since the early '80s, and I can truly say I don't miss any of it..
 
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Hope in God

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But when study takes precedence over Him who is the truth, than it is no more than an Idol set before Him. Remember the Israelites when Moses went up to have a chat with God, so they grew impatient, and built themselves a golden calf to worship, christianty did the same, too impatient to wait and hear from God so they made there own golden calf and called it the bible, and worship it more than God. Many presume to use it to tell God He is wrong, seen that often enough..

I disagree with your belief that the Word is in opposition to the building of a relationship with the Lord, for if you search the Scriptures you will find that they testify of Him. The Word of God remains as God's source of nourishment for His body as well as His source for direction for the lost, disillusioned, dismayed, depressed, and wolf handled.
 
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Hope in God

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Dr. Kenneth Taylor was the one who wrote ‘The Living Bible’ as a Bible his kids and other children could understand. The stress of this undertaking, damaged his vocal cords beyond repair, which left him with the inability to communicate verbally for the remainder Of his life. An awesome icon of the Faith!

I don't quite understand how the writing of the Living Bible could cause permanent vocal cord problems.
 
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bbyrd009

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prolly just a little denial going on there too, yeh
I'm admitting lacking when it comes to studying the scriptures. I'm aware that there is much I don't know and so much of my efforts put toward study are still lacking. I pray this won't be held against me, but idk. Perhaps any other person who has put as much time in reading and searching the scriptures for real, living spiritual truth would have fared better than me. I am a great sinner who wouldn't consider himself an academic unlike so many members here. I know that Jesus is the great savior of sinners like me. I pray that my simplicity is acceptable before God and that He will make up what I'm lacking.
"The best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible" SClemens

imo just find those testifying of themselves, insisting they are "saved," etc, and turn and run the other way, and youll be fine :)

bc as anyone here can note, they cannot answer Scripture anyway
Professors' reputations are well earned imo
 
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Stan B

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I don't quite understand how the writing of the Living Bible could cause permanent vocal cord problems.
Taylor was diagnosed spasmodic dysphonia. “Not a few saw my affliction as a blessing in disguise,” he writes, “because it enabled me to concentrate on paraphrasing the rest of the Bible during the next nine years. I continued to pray for healing all of that time and hoped that with the completion of The Living Bible the ‘blessing in disguise’ would be removed. It wasn’t.” For the remainder of his life Taylor tried various experimental treatments, but his voice, reduced to a gravelly whisper, never returned to its vigor.
 

Hope in God

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Taylor was diagnosed spasmodic dysphonia. “Not a few saw my affliction as a blessing in disguise,” he writes, “because it enabled me to concentrate on paraphrasing the rest of the Bible during the next nine years. I continued to pray for healing all of that time and hoped that with the completion of The Living Bible the ‘blessing in disguise’ would be removed. It wasn’t.” For the remainder of his life Taylor tried various experimental treatments, but his voice, reduced to a gravelly whisper, never returned to its vigor.

Sad, really.
 

amadeus

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We may be more alike than you think, dear brother. I know well the UPC doctrines as I was a member of one of their churches while in my beginnings. I turned to Jesus soon after an electrician shared with me the Cross as we stood in a Navy chow line one day. That night, I prayed as I was lying in my rack. This was during a deployment in the Caribbean aboard a destroyer where we were sent to play war games (target practicing) three months prior to my discharge from the Navy. Soon after our return to the States, I was Spirit filled at a beachfront home filled with tens of recently converted Jesus People. I spoke in tongues almost the moment hands were laid on me.
During my 11 years in Oneness Jesus Only I belonged to two other groups besides the UPC. The UPC initially was all white [Caucasian] while the others were Hispanic and Black. The Hispanic church had services both in English and Spanish. We attended the English because my wife did not understand Spanish. In the black church, we were the first white family to ever attend their church. It was an interesting and edifying experience for them as well as for my family.

Following Great Lakes naval training, both my identical twin brother and I, having enlisted together, were stationed aboard the same ship, the Noa (DD-841). He was discharged earlier than me due to a disciplinary matter that allowed him to keep the classification "under honorable conditions" and left FL for TX. Eight months later, I too was discharged, after which I purchased a van I outfitted for camping.

My zeal for the Lord, by then, had eaten me up, and I wanted to share face-to-face the Cross with my brother, so I drove to TX. To my disappointment, he was not in Dallas when I reached his address, and, as I found out, he chose to backpack/hitchhike to CA, then up to the NW, and back to Dallas. After about two or three weeks living with my brother's friend who permitted me to use their apartment in anticipation of Dennis' return, in walked my filthy, road encrusted twin who initially wanted nothing to do with Jesus.

But the Lord had other plans, and within a couple of weeks, after noticing the change in me and what the Holy Spirit had done for my character and mood, Dennis became convicted and prayed the sinner's prayer. We then looked around for a church to attend while we worked for a day labor force moving furniture (how I hated that work). One night, being hungry, we stopped at a pizza parlor where we discovered a table full of Spirit filled believers from a UPC assembly. I did not know the differences in their doctrine and was very happy to have found a church home.
The UPC doctrines were the first ones I learned in any detail since leaving the Catholic Church about 14 years earlier. When we first started attending their services I thought these were really a heavenly people. I have always been a bit naive about many things, but it was not long before I knew these people were also fallible people.

The UPC does not believe in the Trinity, being Jesus only adherents, and told me, since I was not sure I was baptized in water in the name of Jesus, that I was not saved, so I obliged and did that again. My hair being long and sporting a beard, was cut short as recommended. Their insistence upon tarrying at the altar for the Holy Spirit to overtake a prayerful seeker and cause him to speak in tongues baffled me. It seemed so unnecessarily super spiritual to me. For recreation, we once went to a lake where the men and women were not permitted to intermingle. The women swam on one side of the lake, and the men, the other. Still, we held on, and within a week my brother was baptized in the Holy Spirit. By then, I had begun to suspect their doctrinal leanings to not be where Jesus wanted us. During the few months we were with that group, we gained some good friends, but I felt the Lord wanted us to return to Florida where a movement of God was strong and because it was home to me.
All of these things you experienced sound quite familiar to me although I have away from them more than 30 years now. It was all a learning process for me. I could not stay among them.

Little did I know that the Lord's initial presence (or was it excitement) would lift in north FL after the first year or so, leaving each believer a bit bewildered and starving as they continued to hold onto the only teachings to penetrate the area: the prosperity gospel and the sheep/shepherding error. What a mess those extremes caused throughout the body in those days.

While in FL, I forced myself for years to adopt the Charismatic methodologies for wealth and happiness, and submitted myself to a young pastor who told me how to order my life. I desperately desired balance, and chose to join a Charismatic church, a several hundred member congregation whose favorite teachers included Arthur Burt, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, and men from Ft. Lauderdale who preached submission: Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, and others. It was there I helped lead worship with an occasional sit-in, Phil Driscoll, during his earliest days as a rededicated Christian.

Then, out of the blue, brothers from Beaumont, TX came to town, and set up Bible training classes on the first principles of Heb. 6, which, for me, was my deliverance. The one brother who remained while the others set up their own classroom studies in other parts of the US, taught me how to rightly divide the Word, to study, and approach my growth with a vision for knowing the Word. They were all about more Word and less sign following, which was good for me. Those brothers knew the Scriptures, and were marvelous examples in that regard. I left them after 1.5 years of twice daily sessions while I completed the earning of a BA in literature at the university. After earning my degree, I packed my things, and headed back to my roots.

Fed up with it all the usual debates and nitpicking among the believing community, I left for my boyhood home in SW PA where I wrote for the county paper in the evenings, played secular music gigs at fraternal organizations, and owned and operated a bookstore. I haven't been back to "church" with any consistency since the early '80s, and I can truly say I don't miss any of it..
I have belonged to two different congregations outside of mainstream Protestantism and Pentecostalism since leaving the UPC in 1987. Even when I started with the 2nd one in 2007 it was not long before I knew it was not right for me, but God wanted me there until October of 2018. I also attend no place regularly anymore... but I retain a close friendship with my old pastor who was removed from that last assembly. It was through him that I became disconnected from any formal church.

Thank you for providing this history and testimony for me. I enjoyed reading it and as you say, we are more alike than I was thinking at the first.
 

mjrhealth

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I disagree with your belief that the Word is secondary to building a relationship with the Lord, for if you search the Scriptures you will find that they testify of Him. The Word of God remains as God's source of nourishment for His body as well as His source for direction for the lost, disillusioned, dismayed, depressed, and wolf handled.
You cannot have a relationship with someone you never speak too, and when a book it put above Christ and God, than it is an Idol, Whats it say,

Luk 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
Luk 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Men can study all they like, the only thing keeping them from the truth is there lips, " come Jesus, I know nothing, teach me". That would be very few scholars on this earth that could admit to that, pride is a terrible thing.
 
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Hope in God

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You cannot have a relationship with someone you never speak too, and when a book it put above Christ and God, than it is an Idol, Whats it say,

Luk 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
.

Who is it that you know reads and studies the Scriptures void of a prayerful life? Sure, there are the many folks who, as we used to say, do not attend seminary, but rather attend a cemetery. There is no life in their belief system, but rather their choice to become a pastor is more occupational than it is spiritual. A good many may not be saved as well.

But what I see coming from the Word is instruction on how to grow up in Him, instruction to love the Lord, examples of how to praise and worship, the words to use in our expressions of love and thankfulness toward God.

It is the Word that makes us into anything in Christ. This is so well explained in 2 Peter 1:7-9, "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

The Word abounding in us MAKES US to neither be barren nor unfruitful. We don't make ourselves, for it is God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure, and to desire a relationship with the Lord. We have nothing wherein we can boast. The work in us is to the degree we give ourselves to God's Word.

Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall MAKE YOU free. Who does the freeing? The truth, which is God's Word.
 

mjrhealth

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Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall MAKE YOU free. Who does the freeing? The truth, which is God's Word.
Yes Jesus, He is Gods word, In Him is no lie, you cannot have a relationship with a book, just try it. What was it Jesus said,

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The truth is who... Christ. Why do people want to hide away from Him.

Luk 7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
Luk 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.
Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

He calls yet they wont come.

Luk_13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Rev_3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
 

CovenantPromise

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In my Bible reading today, I came upon a verse that reminded me of another passage. Psalms 45:8 which speaks of the fragrances of the garments of the Bride of Christ (truth). They "smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia..."

In contrast, speaking of the strange woman in Proverbs 7:17, she states, "I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon."

Notice the difference? There is a replacement. So, just who is that strange woman, besides being a lady of the evening?

She is false doctrine. This speaks pointedly to a present day dilemma. So much error today is cloaked with the fragrance of truth, but in reality, cinnamon has replaced cassia.

We must be vigilant, especially now that so much of the truth is being laid aside for the sake of peace among the brethren. Truths have become rewritten and watered down by the use of good sounding phrases and promises.

What has evolved is a widespread belief that the only path to peaceful relationships among believers with varying doctrinal emphases is to believe that no truth deserves approval by everyone.

In other words, one can’t make a claim that the truth that he/she holds deserves belief by everybody. And, so to maintain unity, if that is indeed the goal, we must abandon agreement.

In many cases emotion has replaced the deep search for truths, because, after all, an insistence on a truth is seen as arrogance, not love, and must be set aside for community.
Cassia has a stronger flavor. Concerning the spiritual pallet, stronger is best. Perhaps the more convincing argument should be embraced when scriptural truths undoubtedly support it. After all, all arguments should be weighed in the balance of scripture. If there is more scriptural support for, then it can be considered a weightier argument, hence has cassia ,a stronger flavor than say, doctrines held to, in the precepts of men called tradition, that is unsubstantiated by the written word.
 

OzSpen

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I believe it is just Laodicean apathy. They simply don't care! I suspect that fewer than 5% of Christians have read the entire Bible even once!

Stan,

My own Christian sister who has been a Christian for most of her adult life (age 69), told me a year ago: 'I'm not much of a Bible student'. She was justifying her lack of Bible reading but she does go to a women's KYB study. Will that do for regular Bible reading - a chunk a week?

Oz
 
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farouk

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Stan,

My own Christian sister who has been a Christian for most of her adult life (age 69), told me a year ago: 'I'm not much of a Bible student'. She was justifying her lack of Bible reading but she does go to a women's KYB study. Will that do for regular Bible reading - a chunk a week?

Oz
So important to feed on the Word prayerfully...