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Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by aspen, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    i am wondering why the focus of eschatology has turned from the celebration and crowning of humanity in Paradise, to forecasting and tea leaves; fixation on the destruction of the world?

    Why are we obsessed with war, and death and destruction? Oh, and retribution and ego dominance over the torture of the lost. Morbid and false-self thinking! My dad would call it rubber-necking......

    I think we need to refocus on faith and hope and love. Our role in this world does not change regardless of governments and world events. We are called to love, period!
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  2. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    It does seem hopelessly bizarre, doesn't it? I think it began with the fact that to get TO the 'crowning of humanity in paradise', the bible speaks of human history coming to a climactic end in a non-gentle way.
    After a while it got to the point that people were looking for those events as a sign of what came after so much, that now they long for those things too. Like I said...bizarre.
    I like focusing on the 'light at the end of the tunnel', myself. Not so much what will come before it. I know it's all His plan, and I have to trust him in that...I do trust him in that. But it's above my paygrade. So I just concentrate on the light.
     
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  3. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    Right; Naomi, the Bible prophesies are graphic and violent. Disaster is coming to the world.
    All very well, but 1 Peter 1:19 says we should study the prophesies, if we don't then basically we are saying to God that we can't be bothered with about a quarter of the Bible.
    We Christians should not be in the dark about God's plan for His people in these end times.

    Just looking at the situation in the Middle East is enough for us to know that soon there will be a dramatic change there, that will affect all the world. Over 100 Bible prophesies tell us all about this world changing event. They tell us what the Lord will use, all its effects and the results of it. We Christians can and should know all about it and be prepared, mentally and physically.
     
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  4. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member

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    Amen!
     
  5. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    You'll note that I said "focus" on the end...the part when Christ returns and all is well. I didn't say ignore or brush aside the rest. If we focus on what comes first without putting the solid focus on the real emphisis...the real point of our hearts desire and longing...Christs return...we will (and often do) end up longing for and loving the heartache and pain that will preceed it. We can know these things to be biblical and just; to be fully in God's hands. But to focus on them and be excited about them to the exclusion of almost loosing focus of the 'main event'...is a real danger. I think, anyway.
     
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  6. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Why? Why should we care what happens during the end times?
    Will it change anything?
    Does focusing on the destruction of the world change our calling to love?
    Will there be a secret ticket to Heaven lying in the rubble?

    I just do not get the morbid fascination, without seeing it as some twisted bid for justice
     
  7. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Well-Known Member

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    Agreed! We are told not to fear....keep spreading His Gospel to as many as possible!
     
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  8. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    Four questions asked and one comment:

    1/ We should , as Christian Bible believers, not be in the dark about God's plans for His people in the end times. 1 Thessalonians 5:4
    2/ What should change, is peoples false beliefs, their fanciful notions of being whisked off to heaven or that the prophesies are fulfilled.
    3/ No it doesn't. Anyway the world is never destroyed, just judged and punished. Eventually remade; Revelation 21:1
    4/ No one goes to heaven, Jesus said so. John 3:13
    5/ Study of the Prophetic Word cannot be described as 'morbid fascination'. You make it out to be that, because you either don't want to know about it, or are unable to understand it.
    Justice? We will surely see that, when the Lord wipes out those who reject Him.
     
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  9. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    This shows your lack of knowledge of what the Lord has actually planned for His faithful Christian people in the end times. It is for their good, not for any heartache or pain at all.
    Every Christian. from every tribe, race, nation and language will migrate to and live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10, Revelation 7:1-14 WE will be the people that God always wanted in the Land He gave to Abrahams descendants. Genesis 15:18, Galatians 3:26-29

    The Christians who stand against the Anti-Christ, Daniel 11:32-34, Revelation 12:14, will not experience the Great Tribulation during the final 3 1/2 years of this age. Those who do agree with the AC, Daniel 11:32, Revelation 12:17 will be tried and tested for that time.
     
  10. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    1/ We should , as Christian Bible believers, not be in the dark about God's plans for His people in the end times. 1 Thessalonians 5:4

    Yes. People should know that followers of Christ are called to love God and their neighbor - no matter circumstances. If nonChristians cannot see this, perhaps we should be perfecting our love.

    2/ What should change, is peoples false beliefs, their fanciful notions of being whisked off to heaven or that the prophesies are fulfilled.

    Christ was, is, and will be the fulfillment of all prophecies - all else is stage prop. People are only changed when they are able to receive God’s love - Christ within us, prepares their soil, and perfects our own love so we can share it with them

    3/ No it doesn't. Anyway the world is never destroyed, just judged and punished. Eventually remade; Revelation 21:1

    What will happen, will happen! It changes nothing. All we are called to do is love through it. Our need to know the future is a superstitious bid to control the future - it causes anxiety, which Jesus spoke against, and it shows a lack of faith.

    4/ No one goes to heaven, Jesus said so. John 3:13

    No one had gone to Heaven until Christ.

    5/ Study of the Prophetic Word cannot be described as 'morbid fascination'. You make it out to be that, because you either don't want to know about it, or are unable to understand it.
    Justice? We will surely see that, when the Lord wipes out those who reject Him.

    I see you haven’t looked around this section of the board....

    Morbid fascination is exactly what I meant when I was describing Christians who revel in the idea that most of the population of people Jesus died for, are “judged” by fire and destruction. It’s morbid and gleeful for many Christians who carry resentments and ego-bruises from all the times they have felt slighted. I believe these are the folks Jesus judges.

    Do you really think people who have no idea what they are being judged for, can be righteously judged? We are entering a period in time when baby boomers have grandchildren and great grandchild who have never heard of Christ or what it means to be Christian. No amount of four spiritual law packets is going to fix this! If this generation of people are not introduced to Christ through love, they cannot be righteously judged - WE will be the ones judged for not feeding the hungry and clothing the naked.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  11. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Well, a couple of things here: First...I think you rather miss the point of these obviously symbolic passages. True...they are very true...don't mistake me in this. But just because something waxes on about the desert breaking forth in glorious bloom, doesn't necessarily mean that a time must come when that will or must happen. It can be just as true if it is pointing out that at Christ's return the curse that came upon the earth at Eden will be broken and the Earth will break its bonds of weeds, dryness and hardship...just as we will lose our sin.

    So...I don't think we can automatically say that your verses tell us that we MUST come up with a conclusion that people have to go and live in peace and harmony in Israel. Especially when there is nothing in NT eschatological thought to suggest this either. In fact, every time the NT writers speak of the last days or Christ's return, they speak of a single event, one that will end the affliction done to his people. Again...considering the NT is a 'progressive revelation' type of thing, one would expect it to at least touch on a time when all the people of God would 'remove' to the land of Israel for this time of peace before the end. But it does not. So...again, I question that conclusion.

    Secondly, I'm not sure how focusing on Christ's return can show "my lack of knowledge". Indeed, I would posit that my very short, three sentence post was not supposed to go INTO the depth of my knowledge, just simply touch on something that this thread was about. Which was: why do so many Christians get excited when bad stuff goes down? Like natural disasters, or impending wars? Because they do, I've seen it. And the question the thread poses is why? I propose it's because they have a somewhat erroneous doctrine. One that leads them to focus on the lead up to the main event rather than the main event itself. Not that understanding the lead up is not important...clearly having a proper understanding of it is.
     
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  12. Keraz

    Keraz Active Member

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    I have been posting here for about 10 years.
    AS for knowledge of the Prophetic Word, I have written over 800 articles on that subject, so I can fairly claim to know something about what God has planned for His people in the end times.
    How do we get that understanding?
    Watching TV preachers? Or by seriously studying all of the Bible prophets and gaining a picture of what must happen before Jesus Returns.
    It is clear from Revelation 12:6-17, that the Christians will be living in the holy Land. This truth is well prophesied in the OT and Paul mentions it in Romans 9:24-26, how the Lord's Christian people will be named sons of the Living God in the very land the ancient Israelites were rejected.

    Most people just cannot see; how through Jesus, we Christians have inherited all of God's promises, made to ancient Israel. 2 Corinthians 1:20
    Soon all of the Middle East area will be cleared and cleansed. Man cannot resolve the chronic situation there. THEN, after the Day of cloud and darkness, the Lord will motivate His faithful people to migrate to the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16 and Isaiah 66:20, Psalms 107 describe it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
  13. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    I'm fairly sure I have never advocated watching TV preachers to gain our understanding. In fact, I'm fairly sure I've never watched a TV preacher myself.
    So, I think your assumption that any opinion that differs from your own is gained that way rather than by careful study of the scriptures is not a great place to be starting from.

    Rev 12....in a book that is full of symbols, and a chapter that is by far the easiest to see that it is full of symbols (a giant woman giving birth among the stars!?), you insist that verse 6 must be saying that this 'woman' who flees into the wilderness must be Christians fleeing to the holy land? It could just as easily, and I would argue is more likely to be, saying that the 'wilderness' is the whole of this world, of which we are not citizens but strangers, but as we move through it, we are indeed protected by our Lord and Saviour, who has promised that 'not a hair on our head will perish'. This does not give us guaruntee of phsyical protection, but spiritual protection. And this lines up with many scriptures; where we see persecution of believers and how even in that, they are triumphing over their enemies. We are like our Lord in that way.

    And Paul's reference to "that place" in Romans 9:24-26? Once again, too much emphesis is being placed upon a bit of dirt, rather than the spiritual importance behind the event. If we look back at Hosea, where Paul is quoting this from, we see that it is speaking of the promises of God to the nation of Israel at Sinai. Sinai, depending on who you talk to, is held to be outside of Israel proper. So, it can't really be talking about a piece of ground. "That place", therefore is not a geographical reference but a reference to the event when God and his people bonded at Sinai. Which was a place of repentance and acknowledgement.
    In Paul we can see that he is speaking of the time when the Gentiles themselves come to the true God of scripture in repentence of their sin, and acknowledgement of his truth.

    In other words; there is no legitimate way these texts point to a "must" in regards to people coming together at the end to dwell in the land. It doesn't state it outright, and there are other, very good exegetical ways to understand the texts that don't lead us there.

    Well...here I'd have to both agree, and disagree with you. Yes, many Christians don't seem to grasp that. In fact, they tend to look at those who do as anti-semites, even though every Jew who believes in Christ keeps his inheritance as well. And it's not like where making up the rules here, we're just saying what the bible does. New Covenant = Jesus. No Jesus = no promises, no matter who your fore fathers were.
    However, I disagree with you when you...and correct me if I'm wrong...say that these promises we inherit, only bring us to the holy land. When Jesus took the gospel 'global', for want of a better word, so also went the promises. Christ is heir to the whole world, he is above all rule and authority and all people. When he comes again, those who follow him will gain inheritance to all the world, not just Israel.

    Here's the thing: I think it becomes a deep, hermeneutical error to base one's doctrines on the OT. The bible has been revealed to us progressively, which means that it should be the New shedidng light on the Old, not the other way around. On the Mount of Transfiguration, God tells the Disciples: 'this is my Son, listen to him'. Which means that the vast majority of our understandings need to come from the teachings of Christ and how he viewed certain subjects. And within the NT, specifically the didactic books, Christ covers enough of these subjects for us to clearly understand them, and also understand how we should be regarding the OT. So, going back to the OT and deciding that just because it reads a certain way, sequence or manner, and then trying to impose it on the NT even though the NT would, in fact, contradict it, is just not going to fly with me. Sorry.
     
  14. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    One famous personality eve threatens ppl to sue if someone calls him a television evangelist...o_O
     
  15. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 11.26 shows a glorious light at the end of the tunnel, for the church. :)
     
  16. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    A lot of end time prophecy deals with the warnings regarding the deceptive nature of end time politics and church's adultery through her relationships with the secular nations of the world and her unfaithfulness to Christ. It warms us to stay clear of such involvements, and informs us of the means by which these deceptions will take place, and the consequences. We ignore such prophecy at our own peril.
     
  17. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, just as there is in 1 Thess 4:17-18 ..."encourage one another with these words". Words not of disaster and woe, but of us being gathered together to be with Christ. That is what our joy and hope must be centred upon!
     
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  18. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Good encouragement here. :)
     
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  19. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Well, that's it...you're not seeing the justice of it. God is a god of justice, not just of love, but also of wrath.

    But, while I too prefer love, that is only part of what the world is all about. God didn't create the world then say, "Now, go a love one another", and it was so. There has been a change of events. Evil has entered on the scene, and what you are seeing is not the death of good, but of evil. Good wins over evil. "It is finished."
     
  20. Naomi25

    Naomi25 Well-Known Member

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    This. 'what you are seeing is the death of evil'. I think we don't often enough acknowledge this. It's probably because we live within this world, and because we do love even those who are perishing and so it hurts a bit too much. But; everything that currently breaks our hearts and threatens our sanity; evils and attrocities that people do to each other or just seem to befall some...they are not meant to be, and this lame but vicious thrashing we see is nothing more than Satan and a fallen world in its dying throes. Yes, my word 'it is finished'! The ultimate triumph has been won...he's just being kind enough to wait for some of us stragglers...and I for one am forever glad he did!
     
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