End Time views

[Literalist-Luke]

(Two;43094)
What is the End of Time?
I'm not sure what the End of Time is. Who mentioned it?

 

[Literalist-Luke]

(bondsemerson;43100)
I was listening to a Pastor named Barry Smith the other day on SKY and he was saying that Chirst will come back in the middle of the tribulation or 3 and half years..From what he was saying the first 3 and half years wont be has hard as the second half,and that Christ would return in the Middle.I dont think it can be Post tribulation cos as Pastor Barry Smith was saying God saved Noah just before the Floyd and he saved Lot just before the Fire...And acording to the bible the second half of the tribulation gets really bad so you could see why Christ would return for his church in the middle just before it gets really bad...
I would really like to know how Barry Smith arrives at that conclusion, because that's not what it looks like to me. The analogy with Noah and Lot still holds true. The Day of the Lord will be at the end of the Tribulation, in conjunction with Christ's return at the end of the seven years. Before He pours out His judgment on the earth, He will lift up the believers into the sky with Him as Paul describes in I Thessalonians 4-5 and I Corinthians 15 where we will see the Day of the Lord take place from a position of safety. As bad as the Tribulation gets, it'll be nothing compared to the Day of the Lord. Don't forget, "In the world, ye shall have tribulation." (John 16:33) Jesus was saying this to His disciples, the infant Church. That means US as well.

 

[Christina]

The end of time as men see it I would guess might end at the 7th trump for we are all in the twinkling of an eye changed into our new bodies. But then theres a milliuem1000 years but I assume that will seem as one day if we are not in flesh then we go into eternity so I would assume there is no time as we know it.but this is all speculation on my part

 

[Christina]

(Literalist-Luke;43207)
I would really like to know how Barry Smith arrives at that conclusion, because that's not what it looks like to me. The analogy with Noah and Lot still holds true. The Day of the Lord will be at the end of the Tribulation, in conjunction with Christ's return at the end of the seven years. Before He pours out His judgment on the earth, He will lift up the believers into the sky with Him as Paul describes in I Thessalonians 4-5 and I Corinthians 15 where we will see the Day of the Lord take place from a position of safety. As bad as the Tribulation gets, it'll be nothing compared to the Day of the Lord. Don't forget, "In the world, ye shall have tribulation." (John 16:33) Jesus was saying this to His disciples, the infant Church. That means US as well.
Agreed Luke I to do not get where Barry and these guys get their ideas it certainly isnt scripture.And as far as Noah he was saved here on earth as was Lot and Daniel never did God fly anybody away he protects his own right here on the good ole earth just as every other time in scriptures,

 

[Literalist-Luke]

There is historical evidence for this. You can find an excellent article on it right here.

God removed Noah and his family from the wrath to come .Darby did not invent that .

That’s true' date=' but it doesn’t differentiate the two Rapture positions (Pre-Trib or Post-Trib). A post-tribber (like me) would say that the Day of the Lord judgment takes place in conjunction with the 2nd Coming, after the seals/trumpets are completed. We will be “Raptured” at the time that Jesus returns, just prior to the pouring out of the Day of the Lord judgment, which we will see from a position of safety in the sky with Jesus.(You can actually find a rather extensive description of the Day of the Lord at Joel chapters 2-3. In fact, one of the biggest stumbling blocks to Pre-Tribulationism is Joel 2:31 – “[i']The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.[/i]” So far I have yet to see a Pre-Tribber’s explanation for that verse that wasn’t somewhat ridiculous sounding.)

Um, I’m missing your meaning there, sorry.

No argument here. However, the destruction you speak of does not take place until the 2nd Coming.

That’s a whole ‘nother thread, but “Dispensationalism” is a distorted view of biblical history that was invented specifically to support a pre-chosen Pre-Trib view of the “Rapture”. You won’t find Dispensationalism in anybody’s teachings prior to the early 1800s.

You say that, but can you support it Scripturally?

When was the door “shut” on Sodom and Gomorrah? And where in the Bible does it say that God has to follow precisely the same procedure that He did for the Flood?

It will not be the great flood ' date=' it will be the great tribulation upon the earth. (thee GREAT ONE ) (Singular) It is intended to punish the unsaved world. It is not intended to punish the Church. We are the Church. [/QUOTE']The Day of the Lord is intended to punish the lost world. The Tribulation is another matter entirely.

That is correct.

If we were appointed to the partake in wrath to come we would not have "the blessed hope" and long for the second coming.

That is quite true.

You have a problem populating the millenium kingdom if the "rapture" and the "second coming" , and the "end of the tribulation" all happen at the same instant.

That’s actually an argument that I used to throw out to “refute” Post-Tribulationism in my Pre-Trib days. What Pre-Tribbers fail to take into consideration are the followingre-tribbers argue that if the rapture occurs after the tribulation, all raptured and resurrected believers would receive glorified bodies, while all unbelievers would be sent to eternal punishment, leaving no third party to generate an offspring capable of revolting at the end of the Millennium, [Rev. 20:7-10]. This objection is largely based on the Sheep and Goats parable. It appears that no one is left out of Jesus' parable. “All nations” are gathered before Him and separated. Pretribbers believe the “sheep” in Jesus' story are “tribulation saints,” saved after a pretrib rapture. They believe the Church will enter the Millennial Kingdom in glorified bodies, while “tribulation saints” will enter in natural bodies, bearing the rebellious offspring. The challenge for posttribbers is to explain how unbelievers could be present on earth towards the end of the Millennium, if all the unsaved are damned, and if all saints receive glorified bodies, incapable of reproduction, at the beginning of the Millennium. This judgment will occur when Christ appears in glory with the angels to take His seat on the Millennial throne, [Matt. 25:31]. We know that there will be a Jewish remnant who be protected by God through the tribulation, [Rev. 12:14]. They will look upon Christ and be saved when He appears in glory for the battle of Armageddon, [Zech 12:10,11]. They will flee on foot toward the Mt of Olives after Christ and the saints touch down [Zech. 14:4,5]. Since, according to the posttrib view, the rapture takes place just before Christ appears to the world at Armageddon, this Jewish remnant will have missed the rapture. They will enter the Millennial Kingdom as new converts in natural bodies. These could produce many children, some of which will revolt at the end of the Millennium. The “sheep” are all believers who participate in the rapture and resurrection. The “goats” are the unbelievers who worshipped the Beast. The Jewish remnant will be a third party not mentioned in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats. One important point that adds credibility to this scenario is the fact that Jesus said the “nations” will be judged, some being the sheep and others the goats. The Greek word for “nations” is usually used in Scripture to denote Gentile nations. It is variously translated “nations,” “Gentiles,” or “heathen.” It usually excludes the Jewish people. This scenario, in my opinion, completely solves the problem raised by pretribbers regarding who will spawn the seed that revolts at the end of the Millennium. But, there is more to this than just a Jewish remnant. Several Old Testament passages indicate there will be Gentile survivors of the tribulation who will enter the Millennial Kingdom in natural bodies. A few examples follow. Isaiah 22 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. Isaiah 14 1 For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.2 And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors. Zechariah 149 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one....16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. Ezekiel 3624 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God....36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it. These passages indicate that there will be some unsaved people who survive the tribulation and enter the Millennial Kingdom in natural bodies. Yet pretribbers claim the parable of the sheep and goats has all the unsaved cast into eternal punishment at the beginning of the Millennium. Some claim this is also implied in Revelation. According to Revelation 13:8, all who are not written in the Book of Life will worship the Beast, and all who worship the Beast will be damned, [Rev. 14:9-11]. The verses in Revelation, however, do not indicate if this damnation occurs before or after the Millennium, or upon the end of their natural life span during the Millennium. Those who use Matthew 25 and the verses from Revelation to denounce post-tribulationism apparently do not realize that they are creating a paradox for themselves. Post-tribbers can simply point to the Old Testament passages that show some heathen will pass into the Millennium. While some post-tribbers may not be able to adequately reconcile this idea with the parable of the Sheep and Goats, they nevertheless have Scriptural precedent for claiming that some unsaved people will continue to live under Christ's rule, as well as the Jewish remnant who trust Christ when He appears in glory. These will therefore reproduce in the Millennium. Pre-tribbers, who raise this objection to post-tribulationism, do so based soley on their interpretation of Matthew 25. But, this is not a valid objection unless they can reconcile the Scriptures from the Old Testament that indicate some unsaved will indeed enter the Millennium. The problem they create affects all premillennialists equally. It does not favor any single rapture position within the premillenial camp. Since their view of Matthew 25 does not square with the Old Testament passages cited above, there must be something wrong with their interpretation of Matthew 25. The only way to reconcile these Scriptures is to realize that Jesus was making a general statement when He said “all nations,” [Matt. 25:32]. He did not mean that every single individual living would be either a “sheep” or “goat,” only that every nation will have some “sheep” and some “goats.” While Jesus' words do not specifically mention a third party, they do not rule this out either. In the parable of the Dragnet, we could easily infer that not all people will be included in this gathering. In that parable, no one would assume that the dragnet caught ALL fish in the entire ocean. Furthermore, the expression “all nations” does not necessarily mean every person on earth. According to Zech. 14:2, God will gather “all nations” to Jerusalem for the battle of Armageddon. Does this mean every man, woman, boy, and girl, will take up arms and march on Jerusalem at the end of the tribulation? Of course not. Rev. 19 indicates that it is the armies of the nations that march on Jerusalem. Isaiah 2 describes “all nations” coming up to Jerusalem to worship during the Millennium. Yet, Isaiah 34:2 says God will utterly destroy “all nations” at the second coming. Is no one left alive? Haggai 2:6,7 says God will shake “all nations” once more (speaking of the tribulation) and then says these same nations will come up to worship at the Temple in the Millennium! These passages fill in information left out of Matthew 25. The Sheep and Goats parable is not all-inclusive. Who then are these, mentioned in the passages above, who are neither “sheep” nor “goats,” who are left over after the battle of Armageddon and pass into Christ's Kingdom as subjects? The answer is not at all complicated. There will be millions of children on earth when Jesus returns. They will not have worshipped the Antichrist, nor taken his mark because of their young age. They only need the mark to buy and sell, something children seldom do. Not having reached the age of accountability, even if they were forced by their parents to go through the motions of worshipping the Antichrist, God will not hold this against them. Those who go away into eternal punishment are the “wicked,” those who actively opposed Christ and persecuted or neglected His people, [Matt. 25:41-45]. Little children are precious to Christ, as indicated in the following passage. They are not “wicked,” even though they are not yet believers. Children all meet the criterion to enter Christ's Kingdom. Mark 1013 And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.16 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. While John 3 indicates that unless a man is “born again” he cannot enter the Kingdom of God, Jesus clearly excluded little children from this requirement. If this applied to children in Jesus' day, how much more to those children are born during or prior to the tribulation, and are facing the establishment of that very Kingdom. There are also several passages in the Old Testament that indicate children will enter the Millennial Kingdom of Christ. Isaiah 114 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Psalm 1713 Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: [Armageddon]14 From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes.15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. [Millennial Kingdom] Speaking of God's restoring Israel's land inheritance in the Millennium, Jeremiah wrote the following. Jeremiah 317 ]that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.18 In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.19 But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me. The Scripture is not very explicit regarding the fate of children in the tribulation. However, we can assume that God will treat them much the same as He has done in the past. Scripture indicates that unless someone believes the gospel he will be condemned. Yet, we know this does not include children under the age of accountability. The Scriptures do not address this issue clearly. But we can make certain assumptions based on the character of God. I am only suggesting that God will do the same with children at the end of the tribulation. When the rapture occurs, only born again Christians will be caught up. No Scripture suggests that unsaved children will be raptured. Children who are not believers will not be raptured. However, they will not fit into the category of the “sheep” (the righteous) or the “goats” (the wicked). The “sheep” (all believers) will enter the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world, [Matt. 25:34], while the “goats” (all who worshipped the Beast) will be cast into everlasting fire, [Matt. 25:41]. The children who have not reached the age of accountability will pass into the Millennium still having the opportunity to believe and be saved, or be rebellious, as some will according to Zech. 14:16-19. These, along with the Jewish remnant, will reproduce and eventually spawn the great multitude who follow Satan at the end of the Millennium. Perhaps some readers are concerned that small children would be left to enter the Millennial Kingdom without their parents. Either their parents were believers and were gathered at the rapture, or else they were unbelievers, and were destroyed at the Battle of Armageddon. Either way, if the above scenario is correct, there will be a multitude of children without guardians present to look after them. I can see how this possibility would not sit well with Christian parents of small children. As parents, we certainly are concerned with the welfare of our children. But, why should we expect that God would rapture our kids? Although this is a common pre-trib assumption, I see no precedent for this idea in Scripture. Suppose a Christian couple is killed in a car accident. Does God supernaturally rapture the kids? No, they are left to muddle through life as best they can. They will have to endure a very difficult and traumatic experience. I don't see why the rapture would be any different. I believe the rapture is the same day Christ comes to establish His Kingdom. Consequently, the children will all be in a “friendly” enviornment following the rapture. Besides, the entire host of angels are coming with Christ, and will participate in both the battle of Armageddon, and in gathering the elect at the rapture [2 Thess. 1:7,8 & Matt. 24:29-31]. But, I suspect they will have another job as well. Heb 1:1414 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?(KJV) Notice the future tense, “shall be.” This implies that the angels are dispatched to aid people BEFORE they are actually saved. I submit to you that after the angels are finished gathering together the “elect,” they will be sent with another mission. They are not called “guardian angels” for nothing! Matt 18:1010 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.(KJV) The fact is, the Bible really doesn't say exactly how this will play out. I think we just need to trust the Lord that He will do the right thing by us and our kids. The best thing we can do is teach them about the Lord as soon as they are able to understand. Then, leave them in God's hands. However, with all those angels attending Christ's coming, I would be surprised if they just sat around after the second coming with nothing to do!

Um, where do you find this, that “regular” Christians will be lower on the ladder?

When do we start counting them , now ?? Yesterday ?? Next year ??? think about it. Is there some event to signify the start of this period.If so , what do you think the event will be ?? When does jesus begin "selecting these "special" Christians. Sorry for my poorly worded question.

The event that signifies the start of this period will be the “covenant with the many” spoken of by Daniel in Daniel 9:26-27. However, the Christians in that period will be the same as they always have been.

 

[Elf]

(Letsgofishing;42974)
Ive always have been taught Amilleniesm. Even though I have never really looked it up in depth. So I'll pick #4, so I can really learn it. Someone throw me a really good argument against it
I agree with you, "Amilleniesm."

 

[Elf]

(Literalist-Luke;43063)
Thank you! I was just sitting here shaking my head thinking the same thing. Here's the deal folks: God is not going to take a poll of the world's believers and structure the "end of the world" based on whatever the majority opinion is. It's going to happen the way it's going to happen and our belief, correct or not, is not going to change it. So do we want to know what GOD'S plan is or not???And by the way, the Bible teaches Dispensational POST-Tribulational Pre-Millenialism. Thank you.
This is not a vote as to what view is true, It is just a post to discuss different views. If someone does not agree with me or you on these views, it does not mean they are wrong. These views, no matter which we believe whether right or wrong is not a salvational issue. Hopefully we can all learn from each other and have the freedom to share our individual beliefs,God Bless

 

[Elf]

(Alanforchrist;43108)
Elf, what is your view.
Amillenialism 98%. I have been studying into this for some time now, it is a deep study.

 

[Literalist-Luke]

(Letsgofishing;42974)
Ive always have been taught Amilleniesm. Even though I have never really looked it up in depth. So I'll pick #4, so I can really learn it. Someone throw me a really good argument against it.

BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION​

Before one can begin discussing any topic in the Bible, the issue of how one is going to interpret the Bible must be settled first. There are a number of differing approaches to interpreting the Scriptures. The result is an easily foreseeable equal number of differing opinions about the meaning of various passages in the Bible. To the uninitiated newcomer to the Bible, this vast collection of competing ideas on what to believe concerning Scriptural matters can surely be confusing and bewildering, not to mention frustrating. With so many differing opinions by so many “educated” and “experienced” theologians, how is it possible to know what to believe? Quite frankly, the only completely safe approach to avoid getting confused by so many different human opinions is to treat all of them as being suspect until proven otherwise. The next obvious question would be of course, then how do we decide what to believe? There is only one completely safe and truly 100% objective opinion on how to interpret the Bible, and that is none other than the Bible’s own opinion. During the process of writing the Bible, its Author was fully aware that this would be a critical issue for future generations of Bible readers. He has provided the answer for us within the very pages of the Bible by showing us examples of how people in the Bible interpreted it. All we have to do is study their example and then follow it. One of the Bible’s first examples on how to interpret the Word of God is from Joseph, son of Jacob.Genesis 50:24-25Then Joseph said to his brother Israelites, "I am about to die. But God will surely come to your aid and take you up out of this land to the land he promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." And Joseph made the Israelites swear an oath and said, "God will surely come to your aid, and then you must carry my bones up from this place."In this passage, Joseph is referring to God’s promise to Abraham at Genesis 15:13-16."Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure."Joseph and his brothers were in Egypt during the events of Genesis 50 when he was instructing his brothers on the disposition of his remains. Clearly, he is taking God to mean precisely what He said to Abraham: that the Israelites will one day live in the physical, geographical promised land after being mistreated in another land. If he had taken this to mean that the “promised land” was simply a mentally experienced state of euphoria and bliss, then why would he have talked about a burial location for his remains? So the example we are given here is that the Word of God says what it means and means what it says. It would of course be easy to pay little attention to this one example since we have seen the fulfillment in history as recorded in the book of Exodus, but we have to remember that when Joseph and his brothers were having this conversation, the prophesied events had not yet occurred. In fact, they and their relatives were held in very high regard by the entire nation of Egypt at this point. Joseph, only a few years earlier, had saved all of Egypt and numerous surrounding peoples including his own family from starvation at the hands of a terrible famine as recorded in the famous story of Genesis 41-47. As the hero of Egypt, Joseph was second only to the Pharaoh himself in the Egyptian government. It must have seemed like a distant and remote possibility that their descendants would be enslaved and mistreated as the LORD had predicted to Abraham, yet Joseph took the prediction literally. We know, of course, that he was right, that God’s prediction to Abraham was fulfilled exactly to the letter.There are three other examples that Joseph gives us that we will look at. These three examples are all dreams and are recorded in Genesis 40-41. Each dream by itself made no sense whatsoever to the people who had the dreams, and they would likely make no sense to us either by themselves. However, God provided an explanation for what the dreams meant. The explanations were straight forward and to the point. The predictions given in the explanations of these dreams were fulfilled absolutely literally. So here we can glean another lesson about how to approach the Scriptures: When the Bible is presenting an illustration that is not to be taken literally, the Bible will also provide an explanation that is to be taken literally. The accompanying explanation will often be in the same passage as the illustration, but this is not always the case. Sometimes the reader must find the explanation elsewhere. This is one of the primary reasons why there is so much confusion over how to interpret the Bible. If one is not familiar enough with the Bible to recognize the connection between two different passages that are sometimes quite far apart from each other, then the reader will be lost as to the meaning of the Biblical illustration. At this point, the reader will be left with no alternative but to simply guess the meaning of the passage, and it should be obvious that the odds of such a guess being correct are not very good at all.Let’s look at some other examples, this time from the LORD Himself, Jesus Christ. Jesus consistently interpreted the Old Testament quite literally, including:The Creation account of Adam and Eve (Matthew 13:35; 25:34; Mark 10:6),Noah's Ark and the flood (Matthew 24:38-39; Luke 17:26-27),Jonah and the great fish (Matthew 12:39-41),Sodom and Gomorrah (Matthew 10:15), andThe account of Lot and his wife (Luke 17:28-29).However, Jesus was also known for speaking in parables. The parables, as most Bible students are aware, were stories that contained hidden meanings. In order for one to understand the point of the parable, an explanation had to follow. Jesus stated as much Himself in Matthew 13:1-23, specifically telling his disciples that He was intentionally hiding the meaning of His stories and only revealing it to those who were diligent enough to inquire as to its meaning. This shows us an important principle in Bible study: The meaning for something that initially is obscured will be provided, but sometimes we have to really dig through the Scriptures in order to find it. God will not abandon us to waste our time with hopelessly inaccurate guesswork. Notice also that the disciples never heard a parable and suddenly “figured it out” for themselves. In the end, the meaning was always given directly by Jesus. In the same way, explanations for symbolic passages in the Bible must always come directly from the Bible. Praying for a long time over a seemingly obscure symbolic passage and then suddenly “realizing” what it means does not constitute “diligence”, but rather impatience and giving up. Rather than just praying over the passage in question, the prayers must also be accompanied by searching through the scriptures for the meaning of the symbolism. The meaning of any passage that is not to be taken absolutely literally MUST be found in the pages of the Bible itself, and then the explanation that is provided is what must be taken absolutely literally.Now consider this: Suppose somebody gives a prediction about a future President of the United States. Suppose their prediction is that “he will be born in Alabama, but he will be called a Texan even though he comes from Colorado”. Most people would look at that and dismiss it as useless nonsense. It might be very easy to conclude that the prediction is simply not true and undeserving of attention, or somebody trying to figure it out on their own might suggest “Well, this simply means that he might actually be born in Alabama, but the reason he’ll be called a Texan is because he’ll probably enjoy Western movies and he’ll probably come from an area of Alabama where there’s a lot of hills that could be taken to be mountains like they have in Colorado.” People will come up with all kinds of ideas to try to explain what it means, because in their limited perspective, they can’t figure out how it could be literally true. But then suppose a couple who live in Texas and are expecting a child are on a trip to Alabama and the mother goes into labor and gives birth. They and the new baby then return home to Texas where he is raised, after which he attends college at the University of Colorado and gets whatever degree he earns. Years later, he is elected President. The prediction has now come literally true. All the speculation about what the prediction “actually” meant has turned out to be a waste of time and effort because they should have simply taken the prediction at face value.A very similar scenario actually happened in real life with Jesus. The Old Testament predicts the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem, yet speaks of Him coming from Egypt even though He was called a “Nazarene”! Many Jewish scholars of that day found this hopelessly confusing, just as our scenario about a future president could be considered confusing before the fact. We, of course, have the benefit of seeing the literal fulfillment in that Jesus was born in Bethlehem, had to flee (with his parents) to Egypt to escape King Herod, and was then raised in Nazareth. This is all from Matthew 2. It makes perfect sense after the fact. Here’s the point: Just because a prediction in the Bible seems implausible doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the passage. Instead, there’s something wrong with our understanding of how it will be fulfilled. When the time comes that the actual fulfillment occurs, it will make total sense, just as Jesus being born in Bethlehem, being called out of Egypt, and being known as a Nazarene makes sense to us today.Now we must address one more issue that is just as important: context. There is a rather well-known story about a man who decided one day that he was going to start using the Bible as his “guide to life”. So he took his Bible, opened it and looked at the first passage he saw, expecting some sort of divine guidance. The first verse he saw was Matthew 27:5 - “Judas went out and hanged himself.” Thinking to himself that this was clearly not the verse that was intended for him, he tried again. This time he found Luke 10:37 – “Go and do likewise.” Getting a bit nervous, he tried once again and this time found John 13:27 – “What you are about to do, do quickly.” Quite agitated, he thought to himself “maybe something from the Old Testament” and tried one last time. This time he found Exodus 34:11 – “Obey what I command you today.” He put away the Bible and never touched it again. This clearly extreme example is a good illustration of taking verses out of context. Clearly the LORD would not want this man to go hang himself, yet that is exactly the impression he got because he did not interpret these verses in the same manner in which they were written. This is something that is actually quite common and a trap that many Bible readers do not even realize they are falling into. One common example is Isaiah 40:31, a very popular verse.“…but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.”There are many who have claimed to see the United States of America represented here by the “eagles”, since the eagle is the official mascot of the USA. The usual interpretation by these people is that the USA will always enjoy the “special blessing” of God, and that we are a “favored nation” in His sight. While the USA has clearly enjoyed the fruits of our founding fathers’ obedience of Biblical principles of living, there is nothing in this famous passage from Isaiah that justifies such an interpretation. Upon reading the complete passage, one finds that it is addressed to the nation of Israel and that it is referring to the rewards of individuals who live a life in obedience to God’s commands. One has to wonder if Leviticus 11:13 and Deuteronomy 14:12 would also apply to the USA where an eagle is declared to be “unclean”! If one passage applies then why not the other? Clearly then, taking verses out of context can only lead the Bible reader into a hopeless pattern of confusion and guesswork.So we have learned these basic principles:1. The Bible is always to be taken absolutely literally just as Joseph did in Genesis 50:24-25, with only ONE exception –2. The one exception is on the occasion when the Bible specifically tells us how to interpret a particular passage, such as the given interpretation of the dreams in Genesis 40-41 or the parables of Jesus.3. Even if the meaning of a symbolic passage seems hopelessly obscure, somewhere in the pages of the Scriptures, there will inevitably be an explanation for it. Looking for an explanation outside of the Bible is nothing more than hopeless guesswork.4. Just because we don’t understand exactly how a Biblical prediction will come true doesn’t mean it won’t. It just means that we must patiently wait and see how the fulfillment will occur. Fulfilled Biblical predictions have a habit of making perfect sense in hindsight.5. We must be careful not to insert meanings into verses that are not intended by the verse’s context. The overall passage must be taken into consideration along with who the passage was addressed to and the situation in which it was written.With these guiding principles in hand, we are now ready to take a journey through the Scriptures that will last for eternity, and yet will never stop yielding rewards as if today were the first time we opened the Bible.

 

[Elf]

When I say I am an Amillennialist 98% I mean, I have done much study into this. I have looked over many beliefs and tested them to scripture, along with many friends beliefs and have tested them to scripture. Still I am not totally convinced that Amillinnialism is 100% correct. It is just that as of yet, Amillinnialism seem to hold up to scripture the most from what I have studied. And I am open to other views and beliefs, and welcome them which helps me to better clarify certain points. The system of interpretation of the book of Revelation which seems most satisfactory to me (though it is not without it's difficulties) is "Progressive Parallelism". According to this view, the book of Revelations consists of seven sections which run parallel to each other, each of which depicts the church and the world from the time of Christ's first coming to the time of His second coming. If anyone would like these "7" sections broken down let me know. I am not saying this is the correct view, Just to me, I believe it is.

 

[Elf]

Concerning the "1,000 years" Some say it is literally 1,000 years, some say it is not literally 1,000 years. I believe it is not literally 1,000 years. Here is why I believe this way.Revelation 20:1-6, is the only passage in the bible which speaks explicitly of a thousand-year reign. ---Note first that the passage obviously divides itself into two parts: verses 1-3, which describes the binding of satan; verses 4-6, which describe the thousand-year reign of certain individuals with Christ. The book of Revelation is full of symbolic numbers. It would seem rather likely, therefore, that the number "1,000" which is used in this passage ought not to be interpreted in a strictly literal sense. Since the number "ten" signifies completeness, and since a "thousand" is ten to the third power, we may think of the expression "a thousand years" as standing for a complete period, a very long period of indeterminate length. In agreement to this in the light of verses 7-15 of Ch. 20. which describe satans "little season" the final battle, and final judgment, we may include that this thousand-year period extends from Christ's first coming to just before His second coming.Fore 20 years I was a Pre-mill, but since I actually have studied into these major Millennial views I have changed my stand.

 

[Elf]

Question, Are the Jews going to rebuild the temple here on earth and continue with animal sacrifices? If yes, Is it not true only the Jews from the tribe of Levi, are appointed the priest hood? If this is the case it brings some confusion, since the wars against the Jews up until the time of Hitler somewhere along the line all records have been destroyed. They do not know who is who and from what tribe any longer, it could at the most be guesswork. And everyone knows what the rule is about the priests, one from the tribe of Benjamin could not be a priest ect...This presents a serious problem, does anyone have any input on this?

 

[Christina]

There is no pre trib-rapture written anywhere is scripture it was mentioned once in 200 300 a.d. by a misinterptation the parable of the tares there are only five poems left by this person and no one knows his beliefs so to say it was a early Doctrine is false statement. It was a simple misunderstood statement by one man in one writting it was never heard of nor taught anywhere untill inthe 1830 when a 15 year old girl named Margret Macdonald had a dream and told her dream to a pastor that passed in on to Darby and the pre-trib rapure was born the girl eventully went insane this is where pre-trib comes from it isnt in bible never was.

 

[Christina]

1 thess4 is speaking of where the dead are the church at Thess was only three weeks old when Paul had to leave it was made up of Jew and Gentile a rumor had come into the church saying Christ had already returned so the thess knowing the dead are raised first exspected to see their dead loved ones and were concerned where they were when Timothy saw this he reported back to Paul who quickly penned 2 Thess explainig when the Lord would come and we would be gathered to him read history it will tell you the same thing. you can also read the break down of the New Testament posted here(read breakdown of 1 & 2 Thess.)http://www.christianityboard.com/guide-new...42801#post42801

 

[Elf]

I was a Dispensational pre-mill for 20 years, but, there are a few things I have a problem with: 1) Why do dispensationalists say we are, on earth … 2) when we die, we go to heaven…. 3) at the rapture, we come back to earth…. 4) at the rapture we go back to heaven…. 5) at the 2nd coming we come back to earth 7 years later to be there for 1000 years…. 6) after the thousand years, we go to a new heaven and earth?... If Jesus is going to rapture the church out of the world, why does Jesus pray for the exact opposite thing to happen (that the church would NOT be taken out of the world) in John 17:15,20? If dispensationalism has been of the "historic" Christian faith, why was it unheard of prior to the 1830's?These are just a few things that helped change my mind.

 

[Elf]

(kriss;43262)
There is no pre trib-rapture written anywhere is scripture it was mentioned once in 200 300 a.d. by a misinterptation the parable of the tares there are only five poems left by this person and no one knows his beliefs so to say it was a early Doctrine is false statement. It was a simple misunderstood statement by one man in one writting it was never heard of nor taught anywhere untill inthe 1830 when a 15 year old girl named Margret Macdonald had a dream and told her dream to a pastor that passed in on to Darby and the pre-trib rapure was born the girl eventully went insane this is where pre-trib comes from it isnt in bible never was.
Amen! I agree.

 

[Christina]

Im not sure I get you question but pre-trib raptures believers do not believe they die they believe they are lifted into the air where I do not know flesh and blood can not enter Heaven and Satan is prince of the air so where they think they are going I donot know. Scipture says we will all be here during the tribulation we will all have to choose to follow Antichrist or the two wittness's of God the first half of the tribulation is peaceful and it says antichrist comes in peacfully and properously the second half he commits the Abomination of desolation spoken in Daniel that is he declares himself God in the holy of holies it is then the Jews and gentiles really start to understand who he is the Elect will be put on trail and many will tesify in his Name at the 7th and final trump Christ returns with his saints that are already with him they cry out from the alter "how long O Lord"It is at his return ALL are changed into spirit bodies then heaven is coming to earth

 

[Elf]

Mathew 13:24-30, Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' "But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'" Mathew 13:36-43 Then He left the crowds and went into the house And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field." And He said, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels."So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father He who has ears, let him hear. There is not even a hint of a "Rapture" here. All will go until the end of time "The Second Coming of Christ"Kriss, I couldn't agree with you more that there is not a rapture, nor does scripture teach one.

 

[Elf]

(kriss;43270)
Im not sure I get you question but pre-trib raptures believers do not believe they die they believe they are lifted into the air where I do not know flesh and blood can not enter Heaven and Satan is prince of the air so where they think they are going I donot know.
This question? "If dispensationalism has been of the "historic" Christian faith, why was it unheard of prior to the 1830's?" this is a question to Dispensationalists, who say it is a "historic" Christian faith. If in fact is was a "historic Christian faith" it would have been at least heard of, and written of before the 1800s. So far no one has come up with any answers.

 

[Christina]

If you are refering to 1000 year being literal this was somewhat mis understood but remember Daniel was told to seal up the book these things were not met to be understood until the End times Knowledge had to increase Notice it doesnt just say millieum it also say 1000 years Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." We saw that those who took part in the first resurrection were those who died in the Lord, and those who did not yield to Satan, the Antichrist during his "one world" reign. Those who did not take the Antichrist's "mark of the beast", these are the blessed and holy ones. All of these people already will possess an immortal soul during the Millennium.The "second death" is the second time of testing at the end of the Millennium age after Satan is released for a short season. The saints of Christ, and overcomers of the Antichrist's reign in this earth age of the flesh will not go through the second testing, or resurrection, with those mortal souls living in the Millennium age.Revelation 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison." When everyone has been taught that are in their mortal (liable to die) soul bodies, then Satan will be loosed. Those teachings were given under perfect conditions, and all will have bodies with no ailments, perfect thought, and no temptations by Satan. In fact, all will even know he was the deceiver of this earth age. Their understanding will be perfect.Then Satan is released. for a short time to test those who are taught in the milliuem then comes the white throne judgement