Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14

[dak]

@dak

Romans 3:28 – “For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”

The law does not operate on the principle of faith. Instead, it says, ‘The one who does these things will live by them’" (Galatians 3:12, quoting Leviticus 18:5).

Do you live by them dak?

Galatians 3:12 “But the law is NOT of faith, rather ‘The one who does them shall live by them.’”
Leviticus 18:5 “You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the LORD.”

Study Romans 10 and the Torah quote which Paul uses to prove where his preaching (doctrine) comes from. It comes straight from the Torah. The reason you cannot understand where I am coming from or what I am saying is because you have been deceived into believing that the Torah has been done away with. That always comes from the mouths of those who put their souls in grave danger for subverting and twisting the writings of Paul.

 

[Hiddenthings]

The same Living Oracles which Stephen speaks of in Acts 7:38, (already mentioned to you elsewhere), and as Stephen also makes known in the same place, he speaks of the Living Oracles in the Torah. The Living Oracles and the Oracles of Elohim are Living Sayings which contain the Logos of the Father.

Agree

Yes, the "basic principles of the Oracles of Elohim" are indeed the "milk of the Word" and Peter also agrees with the author of Hebrews in your quote.

Agree

Logos is reason and reasoning, (at the least in basic terms), and logikos is logical reasoning, (logic), which derives from logos, and which is used for the rational-logical (pure milk of) the word in 1Pet 2:2.

Agree

So 1 Pet 2:2 is also speaking of the Torah, which contains the pure milk of the Word because it contains, (in Living Sayings or Living Oracles), the Logos of the Father, and the Logos is the Word, (John 1:1), but it is much deeper than Rhema because it/he is actually the meaning which the Father intends in the things which He speaks: the Logos is the understanding of the Rhema which is spoken and then written. This is why it is not enough to have the Rhema, (cf. John 5:39-40, John 5:45-47), but rather the understanding of the Father, (His so-called paradigm) which is actually what is intended in all His words, that is what is most necessary. This is even true with belief: for how can one believe what he does not even understand? And therefore any bold emphatic statements made by the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts cannot be ignored, sidelined, or disbelieved: for they are absolute and like rock solid ground, (grounds for critical doctrines).

Agree

Does this not confirm what I have said? We enter into the heavenly family of Elohim as babes, then we grow (in the Word) into a child which is still yet under the schoolmaster, (Gal 3:24), and tutors, and governors, (Gal 4:1-2), though he be destined to be master over all: (Gal 4:1-2), then comes the time appointed of the Father, (Gal 4:2), when the child becomes a tried, true, and tested adult, that is, a truly proven son of Elohim. And, again, no father puts his untested babe or child in charge of all his goods.

Yes, I agree, in the sense that once a person is truly “in Christ” (i.e no more condemnation) and living by the deeper spiritual truths, the “meat” of the Word, the Law no longer functions as a schoolmaster. At that point, the believer walks in the spirit of the Law, not merely in its letter, and the fuller spiritual principles that were once hidden become evident in Christ.

James understood this when he spoke of the Royal Law.

He referenced the Law in a positive and respectful way, even while writing under the New Covenant. But what exactly was James referring to?

He was referring to the moral law taught in the Old Testament: loving God and loving your neighbor without partiality (Lev. 19:18; Deut. 6:5–6; cf. Matt. 22:37–40; Rom. 2:11; James 2:1, 9). James called this the “royal law,” also known as the “law of liberty” the very standard by which we will be judged (James 2:12). He made it clear that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

So, is there righteousness apart from the Law and faith in Christ?

The answer lies in understanding that the moral commands of the New Testament are consistent with those of the Old not in the sense of ceremonial or civil regulations, nor in the burdensome traditions of the Pharisees, but as a call to active obedience motivated by love.

Ultimately, it’s the spirit of the Law—the principles of love, justice, mercy, and faithfulness that we are called to live out today in Christ.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Why are you derailing my thread with such lies and hatred?

What was presented was truth -

Is this truth?

Romans 3:28 – “For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”

You don't believe the works of the Law can save do you?

 

[Hiddenthings]

This is the third time with this false reasoning and false accusation. Either prove what you accuse or find a way to bow out without blaspheming yourself if that is what you are really worried about.

This is the third time you have failed to acknowledge that Sarah is saved by Faith not an adherence to the Law.

 

[dak]

View attachment 68680

Galatians 3:11-12 "Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for 'The righteous shall live by faith.' But the law is not of faith, rather 'The one who does them shall live by them.' ​

​

John 3:5-6 "Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.'"​

What’s strange is, if you believe Sarah represents being saved by the Law, then why didn’t you change “Born of the Spirit” to “Born of the Flesh”?

Another lousy drawing, another what if to raise up your imaginary strawman, with two cherry-picked verses embedded to make your remarks seem as though they might be accurate.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Study Romans 10 and the Torah quote which Paul uses to prove where his preaching (doctrine) comes from. It comes straight from the Torah. The reason you cannot understand where I am coming from or what I am saying is because you have been deceived into believing that the Torah has been done away with.

It's been done away with in the sense of it purpose and function.

Let me ask you are simple question.

Can the Torah alone save?

If yes, how?

In no, why not?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Another lousy drawing, another what if to raise up your imaginary strawman, with two cherry-picked verses embedded to make your remarks seem as though they might be accurate.

Those verses don’t accurately represent the point? The diagram is simply illustrating the distinct roles of the Mosaic Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant, one associated with Law, the other with Faith.

The drawing does not reject or abolish the written Torah; rather, it shows that the Torah served its purpose in leading us to the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant in Christ.

 

[dak]

What was presented was truth -

Is this truth?

Romans 3:28 – “For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”

You don't believe the works of the Law can save do you?

I see you just skipped over what I posted concerning the idiom "the works of the law". Suit yourself, but the fact that you do not read what others write in responding to you only proves that what I have said is true. You are just making things up as you go and lying along the way because you never actually hear what others say: you simply impose your strawman upon them, and that's the way it is in your mind because you say so.

 

[Hiddenthings]

I see you just skipped over what I posted concerning the idiom "the works of the law". Suit yourself, but the fact that you do not read what others write in responding to you only proves that what I have said is true. You are just making things up as you go and lying along the way because you never actually hear what others say: you simply impose your strawman upon them, and that's the way it is in your mind because you say so.

❝For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight...❞ Romans 3:20

As we have discuss over and over the point is that the Law reveals sin because the flesh is weak (Rom 3:20; 8:1-3), but cannot save.

Attempting to earn righteousness by law-keeping fails because no one can perfectly keep the law (Gal 3:10–12).

This does not mean the Law is faulty in any way only in that it cursed Christ! Otherwise, the Spirit of all the Torah is found in Christ through faith.

I understand that "the works of the Law" cannot be used as a justification to abolish the Torah. My issue with you is that your focus has been solely on the Torah, without showing how your understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant which is the basis of salvation fits into the allegory of Galatians 4.

In my view, you've failed to address this...in fact you remove it totally!

 

[dak]

What's disappointing is you cannot discern how God used the Law (Torah) to achieve His Purpose in Christ. Hence Paul asks the question:

Do we then nullify the Law by faith?

Paul firmly rejects this accusation, responding with an emphatic “Not at all!” (Galatians 3:8, and verses 4 and 6). Rather than abolishing the Law, faith upholds it.

And?? tell me something I don't know.

@dak - You refuse to recognize that genuine faith upholds the Law (i.e two great commandments hang all the law...) which is the crucial element missing from your understanding.

Another lie, I have not shared anything with you on this passage: you have no clue what I believe.

We know the Law itself is holy, just, and good (Romans 7:12), but it was given to reveal the full extent of sin (Romans 7:13 (condemns)), making all humanity accountable before God (Romans 3:19-20). Christ came to fulfill the Law (Matthew 5:17) and to fulfill all righteousness (Matthew 3:15). Thus, the Law stands as a testimony to God’s perfect righteousness, something no one can achieve through their own effort. Only through justification by faith by the promises (Romans 1:17) can a person attain the righteousness of God.

Most of that is your opinions based on your understanding of those passages: and what you are about to use this for, which comes next, shows you do not understand.

Here is the issue: To the Jew, the idea that the Law of Moses was no longer the way to please God (if it ever truly was) was a significant challenge. Therefore, it was important to understand that faith does not eliminate the necessity of obedience.

It is impossible for you to please Elohim because you are ruled by the natural mind of your old-man nature, which cannot be subject to the Torah and therefore cannot please Elohim.

Romans 8:3-8 KJV
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

For the fifth time now: the Torah is spiritual, Rom 7:14a, and you therefore cannot understand it, and neither can you be subject to it for that reason.

Talk about ironic, (your words to me earlier), you claim to be "in Meshiah" and yet at the same time you are clearly "in the flesh" and cannot please Elohim: this truth is witnessed by all of your deeds herein, and all of your false accusations and slanderous insinuations, and all of the false dogmas which you use to beat people over the head with in an attempt to force them to agree with your paradigm king.

So, while your focus is on Torah - you fail to show its goal and aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts. If you can see that Torah was added to the Promises until Christ was revealed, then you would have the complete picture but as I see it you only have half of it.

More personal opinions for the rubbish pile.

 

[dak]

❝For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight...❞ Romans 3:20

As we have discuss over and over the point is that the Law reveals sin because the flesh is weak (Rom 3:20; 8:1-3), but cannot save.

Attempting to earn righteousness by law-keeping fails because no one can perfectly keep the law (Gal 3:10–12).

This does not mean the Law is faulty in any way only in that it cursed Christ! Otherwise, the Spirit of all the Torah is found in Christ through faith.

I understand that "the works of the Law" cannot be used as a justification to abolish the Torah. My issue with you is that your focus has been solely on the Torah, without showing how your understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant which is the basis of salvation fits into the allegory of Galatians 4.

In my view, you've failed to address this...in fact you remove it totally!

You are making a fool of yourself for not reading what I posted about the idiom.

 

[dak]

It's been done away with in the sense of it purpose and function.

No actual evidence that Paul or anyone else teaches this.

Let me ask you are simple question.

Why should I when you have not answered any of my questions?

Can the Torah alone save?

Of course not. Stop making strawmen for people and killing them with your assumed scripture prowess. You're making a fool of yourself in doing so and everyone knows it because you do the same to any and all who dare to disagree with you.

 

[Hiddenthings]

No actual evidence that Paul or anyone else teaches this.



Why should I when you have not answered any of my questions?



Of course not. Stop making strawmen for people and killing them with your assumed scripture prowess. You're making a fool of yourself in doing so and everyone knows it because you do the same to any and all who dare to disagree with you.

I’m going to pause for a moment and review the thread to see what has been missed.

Knowing now that you were raised under the Torah and that you believe it cannot save is helpful insight. I also see that your understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant is quite limited, so we need to shift focus away from the Torah and start exploring the foundation of the New Covenant, which is established on promises, not the Law (Torah).

Once we do this the Torah will offer you a more balanced perspective.

 

[dak]

I’m going to pause for a moment and review the thread to see what has been missed.

Knowing now that you were raised under the Torah and that you believe it cannot save is helpful insight. I also see that your understanding of the Abrahamic Covenant is quite limited, so we need to shift focus away from the Torah and start exploring the foundation of the New Covenant, which is established on promises, not the Law (Torah).

Once we do this the Torah will offer you a more balanced perspective.

Uh, no, here is what is going to happen: you are either going to repent, and start believing and walking in the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, or you are going to eventually die in your sins.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Uh, no, here is what is going to happen: you are either going to repent, and start believing and walking in the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts, or you are going to eventually die in your sins.

The arrogance doesn't suit you dak.

 

[dak]

The arrogance doesn't suit you dak.

You've repeatedly ignore or rejected the Testimony of the Meshiah, (and likewise Paul at the same time). Look in the mirror as far as arrogance: as for me, the real truth is not arrogance, but simply stating the facts, (cf. John 8:21-24). You do much worse because you speak lies that are not taught in the scripture and do so arrogantly, thinking yourself to be wise in the scripture and a teacher of those whom you assume to be ignorant scripture illiterates when in fact you are actually blinded by your own imagined self-worth and under strong delusion because of your arrogance.

It was a terrible mistake to derail this thread in your arrogance because I had many things to say concerning the material in the OP and you turned this thread into a personal assault on my character, character assassination, the techniques of a throat slitter who cannot handle what is being presented to an audience because it refutes his or her own paradigm. When such killers have no argument they immediately switch to character assassination in attempts to silence their perceived enemy any way they can, be it flooding the thread with four or five posts at a time, in rapid succession, or flooding the thread with false, derogatory, and demeaning insinuations and accusations, or both. You cannot tame your tongue, that little member of your household, because you neither believe nor understand the Testimony of the Master: and because of it you run around lighting fires everywhere burning down threads to inflate your ego all the more.

 

[Hiddenthings]

You've repeatedly ignore or rejected the Testimony of the Meshiah, (and likewise Paul at the same time). Look in the mirror as far as arrogance: as for me, the real truth is not arrogance, but simply stating the facts, (cf. John 8:21-24). You do much worse because you speak lies that are not taught in the scripture and do so arrogantly, thinking yourself to be wise in the scripture and a teacher of those whom you assume to be ignorant scripture illiterates when in fact you are actually blinded by your own imagined self-worth and under strong delusion because of your arrogance.

It was a terrible mistake to derail this thread in your arrogance because I had many things to say concerning the material in the OP and you turned this thread into a personal assault on my character, character assassination, the techniques of a throat slitter who cannot handle what is being presented to an audience because it refutes his or her own paradigm. When such killers have no argument they immediately switch to character assassination in attempts to silence their perceived enemy any way they can, be it flooding the thread with four or five posts at a time, in rapid succession, or flooding the thread with false, derogatory, and demeaning insinuations and accusations, or both. You cannot tame your tongue, that little member of your household, because you neither believe nor understand the Testimony of the Master: and because of it you run around lighting fires everywhere burning down threads to inflate your ego all the more.

I've seen this pattern before, typically from overly sensitive forum members who, when confronted with deeper truth they can't refute, resort to exaggeration. Instead of honestly engaging with the text, they twist each passage to suit their bias. And when that approach falls short, they shift to attacking character rather than addressing the argument.

You've been exposed, Dak, and you know it. Instead of building on the true foundation of faith, which is rooted in the Abrahamic Covenant, you’re trying to shift that foundation back onto the Torah, a framework you were deeply ingrained in from childhood. But that’s not the foundation Christ laid.

Romans 4:13 (ESV) "For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did NOT come through the law (Torah) but through the righteousness of faith."

The promise given to Abraham wasn’t tied to obedience to the Law! it was rooted in faith. It depended on the patriarch’s “faith-righteousness,”. If inheritance were based on law-keeping, the principle of faith would be undermined. Verse 14 makes this clear: what role would faith play if salvation hinged on the Law? It would render faith “useless” and the promise “worthless.” The Law itself cannot produce a promise; rather, its very purpose is to bring wrath (v. 15).

Ironically dak, the solution embraced by many Jews strict observance of the Law highlighted their failures instead of alleviating them. Their well-intended efforts exposed their depravity more deeply, making them conscious of their sin. Properly understood, the Law doesn’t distinguish Jew from Gentile but brings both groups to the same urgent need for God’s grace.

As Paul writes in Galatians 3:10, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Without the Law, there's nothing to break. Sin remains, but it’s no longer labeled as transgression against a law (Romans 5:13; 7:7–11).

Your unwillingness to acknowledge the Abrahamic Covenant is your most significant error. Your hesitation to even reference it only underscores what you've already admitted that the Torah, by itself, cannot save.

If you cannot speak to the Abrahamic Covenant, then, to use your own words quoted, “there is no light in you.”

 

[dak]

I've seen this pattern before, typically from overly sensitive forum members who, when confronted with deeper truth they can't refute, resort to exaggeration. Instead of honestly engaging with the text, they twist each passage to suit their bias. And when that approach falls short, they shift to attacking character rather than addressing the argument.

You've been exposed, Dak, and you know it. Instead of building on the true foundation of faith, which is rooted in the Abrahamic Covenant, you’re trying to shift that foundation back onto the Torah, a framework you were deeply ingrained in from childhood. But that’s not the foundation Christ laid.

Romans 4:13 (ESV) "For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did NOT come through the law (Torah) but through the righteousness of faith."

The promise given to Abraham wasn’t tied to obedience to the Law! it was rooted in faith. It depended on the patriarch’s “faith-righteousness,”. If inheritance were based on law-keeping, the principle of faith would be undermined. Verse 14 makes this clear: what role would faith play if salvation hinged on the Law? It would render faith “useless” and the promise “worthless.” The Law itself cannot produce a promise; rather, its very purpose is to bring wrath (v. 15).

Ironically dak, the solution embraced by many Jews strict observance of the Law highlighted their failures instead of alleviating them. Their well-intended efforts exposed their depravity more deeply, making them conscious of their sin. Properly understood, the Law doesn’t distinguish Jew from Gentile but brings both groups to the same urgent need for God’s grace.

As Paul writes in Galatians 3:10, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Without the Law, there's nothing to break. Sin remains, but it’s no longer labeled as transgression against a law (Romans 5:13; 7:7–11).

Your unwillingness to acknowledge the Abrahamic Covenant is your most significant error. Your hesitation to even reference it only underscores what you've already admitted that the Torah, by itself, cannot save.

If you cannot speak to the Abrahamic Covenant, then, to use your own words quoted, “there is no light in you.”

The leopard cannot change his spots.
Nice chatting.

 

[Hiddenthings]

On a personal note, I attended the funeral of a close friend's dad today and was asked to read Hebrews 11, the well-known “Faith Chapter.”

As I reflected on the passage, it struck me that, of all the people mentioned and highlighted for their faith, none of them lived under the Law, except for Moses, where the record stops before the giving of the Law at Sinai.

• Abel (v.4) — lived before the Law.
• Enoch (v.5) — before the Law.
• Noah (v.7) — before the Law.
• Abraham (vv.8-19) — before the Law.
• Isaac (v.20), Jacob (v.21) — also before the Law.
• Joseph (v.22) — before the Law.
• Moses (vv.23-29) — is the key figure who actually lived under the Law, as he was the Lawgiver and led the people out of Egypt, but record stops short of mentioning Sinai!

And even with that single exception, there’s no indication that the other names (such as David) who lived under the Law (Torah), showed obedience to the Torah (pleased God).

Why is that?

 

[Hiddenthings]

And answer has to do with understanding the Moral Law which existed prior to the Torah.

Paul states Romans 7:12 says, “Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, righteous, and good.”

This reflects God’s nature, He is holy, just, and righteous and therefore His laws are a direct expression of who He is. His moral laws remain timeless, even under Christ (Malachi 3:6).

Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.”

They reveal our need for grace, and we are called to use them appropriately (1 Timothy 1:8). All 66 books of the Bible are God’s inspired Word (John 12:49), and both the Old and New Covenants present a unified view of His character, plan, and design through Scripture (2 Timothy 3:16–17).

Although the Bible does not explicitly categorize its laws, scholars often use distinctions, moral, ceremonial, civil to aid understanding. It’s mistaken to claim that the Old Covenant only applied to Israel and that we now have entirely new moral standards under Christ. While ceremonial and civil laws were indeed fulfilled and set aside (Colossians 2:16–17; Hebrews 7:12; 9; 10), the moral law endures. Jesus emphasized this when He declared, “Do not relax the law… your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees” (Matt 5:19–20). Paul likewise taught we establish the law by our conduct (Romans 3:31), not abolish it.

Our moral laws preexisted Moses, passed along orally to every nation (cf. Leviticus 18; Psalm 9:17; 110:6; Isaiah 34; Jeremiah 25), underscoring their universal and timeless nature. To disregard them is to deny the moral order God put in place.

Consider the Sabbath, it carries ceremonial, ritual, and moral dimensions. While observance may differ in application today, that doesn’t diminish its moral significance. The Sabbath, like all moral laws, ultimately points us to Christ (Lord of the Sabbath), the perfect embodiment of God’s Word (John 1:14).

God magnifies His Word above His Name (Psalm 138:2), and Jesus Himself is the living Word, our example and standard (1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1). Sanctification happens only through adherence to His Word (Lev 10:3; 1 Thess 4:3–4), grounded in diligent study of both Covenants (2 Tim 3:16–17; John 17:3).

Rejecting Mosaic moral laws reveals a misunderstanding of God’s Word and disrupts our spiritual vitality. As one brother said “If we gave greater attention to Israel’s law, we would see more fruit of the Spirit and fewer works of the flesh, more spiritual enlightenment and Christlikeness, fewer worldly habits and impurity.”

The kind of faith described in Hebrews 11 is the very faith that Israel was meant to demonstrate by living according to the Spirit behind the Law. However, the Law achieve its task for which God sent it out to do perfectly.