Ephesians 3. Paul vs The Other Apostles & Prophets

[Hidden In Him]

First, that would be James 1:19, I guess.

I don't know where James 2:19 came from. Been quoting too many scriptures as of late, I suppose, Lol.

 

[soldierofchrist174]

That’s absolutely wrong.

The kingdom was first offered to the Jews only because Jesus originally came only for the Jews, but the identical offering was offered to the gentiles when Israel mostly rejected their own messiah.

The message in Romans 11 is that gentiles are grafted onto the Jewish Olive tree, and are therefore included in the new covenant God made with the House of Israel.

There is no plan A and B, there is only plan A - and all those who are Christ’s, Jew and gentile, will be with Jesus on earth forever in the kingdom of Jesus who reigns forever on the throne of David from Jerusalem.

Which makes it so obvious the 2 witnesses are all of God's elects. They are preaching the gospel.

 

[Curtis]

Which makes it so obvious the 2 witnesses are all of God's elects. They are preaching the gospel.

They are Old Testament prophets proclaiming that Jesus is the messiah that the Old Testament said would come - same message Paul preached to the Jews in Acts, which does obviously include the gospel. - but the Jews they will be preaching to in Jerusalem for 42 months won’t believe until they accept that He’s their Jewish Messiah in the law and the prophets.

 

[TEXBOW]

Which makes it so obvious the 2 witnesses are all of God's elects. They are preaching the gospel.

I'm not following you about the 2 witnesses being all of God's elects. They are killed and lay in the street for 3 days. I'm not following you at all.

 

[Curtis]

I'm not following you about the 2 witnesses being all of God's elects. They are killed and lay in the street for 3 days. I'm not following you at all.

They’re two separate people, but that post makes it sound like they are a crowd of people...

 

[TEXBOW]

They’re two separate people, but that post makes it sound like they are a crowd of people...

Sorry, Curtis maybe I'm having a senior moment but is he saying that they are not actually two people but are symbolic of groups of people?

 

[Curtis]

Sorry, Curtis maybe I'm having a senior moment but is he saying that they are not actually two people but are symbolic of groups of people?

That’s how I interpreted it, yes.

 

[TEXBOW]

That’s how I interpreted it, yes.

Why are so many intent on spiritualizing every verse they can? Are these two groups going to lay in the street dead for all to see? People need to understand that they are not righteous by seeking a spiritualized message in the verses.

 

[Curtis]

Why are so many intent on spiritualizing every verse they can? Are these two groups going to lay in the street dead for all to see? People need to understand that they are not righteous by seeking a spiritualized message in the verses.

Good question.

 

[Davy]

In Ephesians 3 Paul tells us that Jesus reveled the mystery to himself and the Holy Spirit reveled it to the Apostles and Prophets. Was that revelation made by Jesus and the Holy Spirit at the same exact time? Many believe that Paul was first in knowing of the mystery but is that validated in scripture? Did Jesus give Paul a head-start in that knowledge?

For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2 if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3 that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4 By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6 to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel, 7 of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. 8 To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, 9 and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

No, it was actually revealed to Apostle Peter first, in Acts 10, when Peter was directed by The Holy Spirit to go to the Gentile Cornelius and preach The Gospel to him, and those gathered with him.

And when The Holy Spirit fell upon those Gentiles, Peter said this...

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
KJV

 

[TEXBOW]

No, it was actually revealed to Apostle Peter first, in Acts 10, when Peter was directed by The Holy Spirit to go to the Gentile Cornelius and preach The Gospel to him, and those gathered with him.

And when The Holy Spirit fell upon those Gentiles, Peter said this...

Acts 10:44-48
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
KJV

Davy I agree about the order in Acts but does that reflect the calendar timeline? Also, Peter didn't know or understand what he was being told to do. He only knew that he was to go to Cornelius. The revelation he had was not that the Gentiles were to inherit the Kingdom. We must remember that Cornelius was most likely a Proselyte. Peter was concerned about telling the leadership in Jerusalem about his interaction with Cornelius. In short, he looked at this event as a one-off experience and not a message to go to the Gentiles. It is clear that it came to him and others later but it looks like to me it was during the counsel that Paul attended. There is no mention in the Angel encounter of a message to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.

 

[Davy]

Davy I agree about the order in Acts but does that reflect the calendar timeline? Also, Peter didn't know or understand what he was being told to do. He only knew that he was to go to Cornelius. The revelation he had was not that the Gentiles were to inherit the Kingdom. We must remember that Cornelius was most likely a Proselyte. Peter was concerned about telling the leadership in Jerusalem about his interaction with Cornelius. In short, he looked at this event as a one-off experience and not a message to go to the Gentiles. It is clear that it came to him and others later but it looks like to me it was during the counsel that Paul attended. There is no mention in the Angel encounter of a message to take the Gospel to the Gentiles.

In Acts 11, Peter with the Church at Jerusalem, explained what happened to him, and they all understood then that Salvation had also gone to the Gentiles. The fact of the matter is, that wasn't revealed to them by Paul, but by The Holy Spirit. So Paul's ministry cannot be included in that.

 

[TEXBOW]

In Acts 11, Peter with the Church at Jerusalem, explained what happened to him, and they all understood then that Salvation had also gone to the Gentiles. The fact of the matter is, that wasn't revealed to them by Paul, but by The Holy Spirit. So Paul's ministry cannot be included in that.

Understand all that. I'm not saying that Paul preached grace to the Gentiles to the other Apostles but that Pauls's ministry prior was confirmation to Peter after his experience with Cornelius that Gentiles can be saved just as they are. It sounds like a light went on in Peter's head. It's obvious that there was a lot of confusion and doubt among Jewish believers at first about Gentiles being part of the body of Christ. It's difficult to layout the book of Acts out on a calendar timeline.

Received through a revelation
Paul’s message had its origin in God, not in the apostles. “I did not immediately consult with anyone; nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia, and returned again to Damascus” (vv. 16-17). Paul spent several days with Ananias and the disciples in Damascus (Acts 9:19), and they no doubt told him what they knew about Jesus.

Paul’s point is not that he didn’t talk to anyone, but that he did not ask anyone to tell him what to preach. The opponents in Galatia may have been trained by apostles, but Paul was not. And that’s good — the apostles did not yet know that God was calling Gentiles into his family, and if they had heard Paul talk about a Gentile mission, they probably would have tried to talk him out of it!

Paul does not tell us where in Arabia he went, or what he did there. If he began to preach in Damascus, then he may have preached in Arabia, too, perhaps in Nabatea, southeast of Judea. Jesus told him to preach to the Gentiles, so he probably did.

Notice below his trip to Jerusalem was 3 years after his revelation by Christ.

“Then after three years,[10] I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas [Peter’s Aramaic name] and remained with him fifteen days” (Galatians 1:18). Peter no doubt told him as much as he could about Jesus, but it was not a training session in which Peter told Paul what he should preach. Paul is stressing his independence.

“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)” (vv. 19-20). Paul’s insistence that he is not lying indicates that he is responding to accusations — that he was an agent of the apostles. Paul’s opponents claimed equal authority, so they tried to “flesh out” Paul’s message with more details. They have my story wrong, Paul says, and they have the gospel wrong, too.

 

[Davy]

Understand all that. I'm not saying that Paul preached grace to the Gentiles to the other Apostles but that Pauls's ministry prior was confirmation to Peter after his experience with Cornelius that Gentiles can be saved just as they are. It sounds like a light went on in Peter's head. It's obvious that there was a lot of confusion and doubt among Jewish believers at first about Gentiles being part of the body of Christ. It's difficult to layout the book of Acts out on a calendar timeline.

You mean you think Paul's ministry served as an example to Peter himself? No, I can't agree to that.

At Acts 9, after God through Ananias had removed Paul's blindness, Paul joined with the disciples at Jerusalem, and began then to preach The Gospel. I'm sorry, but I do not believe Paul preached any different Gospel then, nor to the Gentiles later either. Jesus had said that He chose Paul to preach not only to Gentiles, but to kings and the children of Israel also (Acts 9:15). If Lord Jesus had given Paul a different gospel, that would have been apparent when he was dwelling with the other Apostles at Jerusalem. In the synagogues then, Paul preached The Gospel to both, the Jews and to the Gentile. It was actually the same when Paul went on the road too. Both believing Israelites and Gentiles were of the same body in Christ's Churches then, just as it still is today.

That's another way we know Paul didn't preach a different Gospel than what the other Apostles had. The only difference with Paul was that Lord Jesus converted him divinely, and then sent Paul to preach mainly to the Gentiles. So Paul did not receive The Gospel from the other Apostles like he said, but directly from Christ Jesus. That still did not change The One Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The idea of man's doctrine of Hyper-Dispensationalism began from John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, and Bullinger took the idea further. Other's have created an even bigger messy leaven doctrine on that for today's time.

 

[TEXBOW]

You mean you think Paul's ministry served as an example to Peter himself? No, I can't agree to that.

At Acts 9, after God through Ananias had removed Paul's blindness, Paul joined with the disciples at Jerusalem, and began then to preach The Gospel. I'm sorry, but I do not believe Paul preached any different Gospel then, nor to the Gentiles later either. Jesus had said that He chose Paul to preach not only to Gentiles, but to kings and the children of Israel also (Acts 9:15). If Lord Jesus had given Paul a different gospel, that would have been apparent when he was dwelling with the other Apostles at Jerusalem. In the synagogues then, Paul preached The Gospel to both, the Jews and to the Gentile. It was actually the same when Paul went on the road too. Both believing Israelites and Gentiles were of the same body in Christ's Churches then, just as it still is today.

That's another way we know Paul didn't preach a different Gospel than what the other Apostles had. The only difference with Paul was that Lord Jesus converted him divinely, and then sent Paul to preach mainly to the Gentiles. So Paul did not receive The Gospel from the other Apostles like he said, but directly from Christ Jesus. That still did not change The One Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The idea of man's doctrine of Hyper-Dispensationalism began from John Darby in 1830's Great Britain, and Bullinger took the idea further. Other's have created an even bigger messy leaven doctrine on that for today's time.

I agree with one Gospel. I've been trying to understand the timeline. Paul went into the desert (Arabia) for 3 years. That was before the experience that Peter had with Cornelius. I'm not convinced one way or the other about who received the revelation first, they could have received it all at the same time possibly but it seems likely that Paul was receiving something from Jesus while the Holy Spirit was reveling it to the 12. I totally agree that there is only one Gospel. Delivered differently at times but with the same message.

 

[Davy]

Paul does not tell us where in Arabia he went, or what he did there. If he began to preach in Damascus, then he may have preached in Arabia, too, perhaps in Nabatea, southeast of Judea. Jesus told him to preach to the Gentiles, so he probably did.

Notice below his trip to Jerusalem was 3 years after his revelation by Christ.

“Then after three years,[10] I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas [Peter’s Aramaic name] and remained with him fifteen days” (Galatians 1:18). Peter no doubt told him as much as he could about Jesus, but it was not a training session in which Peter told Paul what he should preach. Paul is stressing his independence.

“But I saw none of the other apostles except James the Lord’s brother. (In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie!)” (vv. 19-20). Paul’s insistence that he is not lying indicates that he is responding to accusations — that he was an agent of the apostles. Paul’s opponents claimed equal authority, so they tried to “flesh out” Paul’s message with more details. They have my story wrong, Paul says, and they have the gospel wrong, too.

That's presenting some confusion against the Acts Scripture, because Saul after his conversion was at Damascus with Christ's disciples per Acts 9:19, and then started right then to preach Christ in the synagogues there until the Jews in Damascus sought to kill him (Acts 9:23). Then the disciples at Damascus provided Paul's escape and he then came to Jerusalem among the disciples (Acts 9:25-26). Those at Jerusalem were afraid of him because of his past persecution of Christians, but Barnabas took him to the Apostles there and revealed how he had been converted by Jesus on the road to Damascus, and had preached Christ boldly in the synagogues at Damascus (Acts 9:26-27). It then says Paul was with them coming and going at Jerusalem, but does not say how many days (Acts 9:28). He then evidently preached Jesus there until the Grecians sought to kill him, and then Paul went to Caesarea and was then sent to Tarsus (Acts 9:29-30).

Per Acts 11:22-26, Barnabas was in Jerusalem and then sent to Antioch. Then Barnabas left Antioch to go to Tarsus to find Paul, and bring Paul to Antioch. That reveals Apostle Paul was still in Tarsus the whole time of Peter being sent to the Gentile Cornelius and those with him, per Acts 10 and Acts 11.

 

[TEXBOW]

That's presenting some confusion against the Acts Scripture, because Saul after his conversion was at Damascus with Christ's disciples per Acts 9:19, and then started right then to preach Christ in the synagogues there until the Jews in Damascus sought to kill him (Acts 9:23). Then the disciples at Damascus provided Paul's escape and he then came to Jerusalem among the disciples (Acts 9:25-26). Those at Jerusalem were afraid of him because of his past persecution of Christians, but Barnabas took him to the Apostles there and revealed how he had been converted by Jesus on the road to Damascus, and had preached Christ boldly in the synagogues at Damascus (Acts 9:26-27). It then says Paul was with them coming and going at Jerusalem, but does not say how many days (Acts 9:28). He then evidently preached Jesus there until the Grecians sought to kill him, and then Paul went to Caesarea and was then sent to Tarsus (Acts 9:29-30).

Per Acts 11:22-26, Barnabas was in Jerusalem and then sent to Antioch. Then Barnabas left Antioch to go to Tarsus to find Paul, and bring Paul to Antioch. That reveals Apostle Paul was still in Tarsus the whole time of Peter being sent to the Gentile Cornelius and those with him, per Acts 10 and Acts 11.

Davy, I'm going to work on a timeline of Paul's life over the next few days. He made more than one trip to Jerusalem. The first he only talked to James and Peter. I'm seeking the facts as best as can be obtained without a bias one way or the other but my understanding as of today is that Paul received his revelation from Christ directly and the 12 received it by the Holy Spirit. I'm referring to the mystery of the Gentiles becoming heirs of course Paul's conversion was before that revelation. It will be interesting to pull this together.

 

[TEXBOW]

That's presenting some confusion against the Acts Scripture, because Saul after his conversion was at Damascus with Christ's disciples per Acts 9:19, and then started right then to preach Christ in the synagogues there until the Jews in Damascus sought to kill him (Acts 9:23). Then the disciples at Damascus provided Paul's escape and he then came to Jerusalem among the disciples (Acts 9:25-26). Those at Jerusalem were afraid of him because of his past persecution of Christians, but Barnabas took him to the Apostles there and revealed how he had been converted by Jesus on the road to Damascus, and had preached Christ boldly in the synagogues at Damascus (Acts 9:26-27). It then says Paul was with them coming and going at Jerusalem, but does not say how many days (Acts 9:28). He then evidently preached Jesus there until the Grecians sought to kill him, and then Paul went to Caesarea and was then sent to Tarsus (Acts 9:29-30).

Per Acts 11:22-26, Barnabas was in Jerusalem and then sent to Antioch. Then Barnabas left Antioch to go to Tarsus to find Paul, and bring Paul to Antioch. That reveals Apostle Paul was still in Tarsus the whole time of Peter being sent to the Gentile Cornelius and those with him, per Acts 10 and Acts 11.

Found this. When he was in Arabia I have assumed was when Christ revealed the mystery of the Gentiles to him. His first trip to Jerusalem was after that time in Arabia.

 

[Davy]

Davy, I'm going to work on a timeline of Paul's life over the next few days. He made more than one trip to Jerusalem.

That still won't change the order of events I showed you in Acts 9 to Acts 11. So you can't just try to squeeze other trips in that, which Apostle Paul did not make in that early period.

 

[TEXBOW]

That still won't change the order of events I showed you in Acts 9 to Acts 11. So you can't just try to squeeze other trips in that, which Apostle Paul did not make in that early period.

Do you disagree with the timeline chart I posted?