Equal to Christ!

[theefaith]

The doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is the only source of authority”

Deny’s the divine tradition: Christ teaching the apostles in person.

Deny’s the power of the Holy Spirit: to guide the apostles into all truth, Jn 16:13 and to governing the church. And be witnesses for Christ. Acts 1:8

Deny’s the apostolic tradition:
Authority to define scripture:
Authority to interpret scripture:
Authority to teach the entire divine revelation.

Denys the authority other than the “Bible alone! Including
Divine authority
Apostolic authority
angelic authority
Civil authority
Parental authority


Restricts the divine revelation and the word of God to scripture alone.

Provides no authority to know what is scripture.
Provides no authority to know what is not scripture.
Provides no authority to safeguard and protect scripture from errors.
Provides no authority to teach scripture without error.
Provides no authority to interpret scripture.

Reasons to oppose the doctrine of the “Bible alone”

Blind or illiterate and cannot read scripture. (Most people before the 20th century were illiterate)
Rare & Expensive (even after the printing press)
Faith comets by hearing not reading.


The Bible alone does not teach the doctrine of the “Bible alone”.

Biblical reference to authority other than the Bible alone.
Matt 16:18-19
Matt 18:18
Matt 28:18-20
Matt 18:17
Jn 20:21-23
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:31
1 Tim 3:15


When God called abram, Moses, the prophets, John the Baptist, and apostles it was not by the “Bible alone” Lk 3:2 the word of God came to John in the wilderness… a book did not fall out of the sky.


There is no list of scripture in scripture!

How does a person know what books, chapters, and verses are scripture and which ones are not?


The word of God is not limited to the “Bible alone”!

The word of God came to Abraham, to Moses, the prophets, and to John the Baptist in the wilderness (Lk3:2) but it did not come by the Bible, or the “Bible alone” not by any book, chapter, or verse!


Scripture all scripture is inspired, all the books and chapters of the canonical scripture authorized by Christ and His church!

The teaching authority of the apostles is the God breathed word of God!

Jn 20:23 He breathed on them (the apostles) and said receive the Holy Spirit…

Lk 10:16 he who hears you (the apostles) hears me. (Hears the word of God)

Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, I send you.

Acts 2:42 the doctrine of the apostles is the word of God!

Matt 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

1 cor 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

1 Jn 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ

1 Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

(The apostles received the word of God and handed it down to us, partly in the scripture)

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

All scripture is inspired! 2 Tim 3:16
(Not only 66 books with missing chapters)

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

Did the apostle John possess the truth? Or only when He wrote it down did it become the truth?

Is what He taught only mere human tradition of men? But what He wrote was the inspired word?

Why is there joy complete in the person of the apostle?


The doctrine of the “Bible alone”
or that the church believes by the “Bible alone” is a heresy!


The truth is revealed by God thru Christ and taught by His church with the unity of the spirit and obedience of faith! Jude 1:3 Matt 28:19
One shepherd & on flock!
Jn 10:16


Scripture challenge!

Show me from or in “the Bible alone”?

1) a list (not contents) of the Ten Commandments.

2) what things is Lk 1:49 referring to.

3) what Christ commanded his apostles in Matt 28:20

4) a list of scripture (books chapters) in scripture?



Not in Bible not important
Acts 8 the eunuch had scripture, God sent an apostle to teach him!
Lk 3:2 the word of God came unto John in the wilderness, a book did not fall out of the sky!
Jn 21:25 many more things than those in scripture!
2 Jn 1:12 the apostle in person makes their joy complete not scripture!


Essential doctrine:
Some doctrines are necessary and some are not is error, it is unlawful and forbidden to reject a truth revealed by God, who can neither deceive or be deceived.

Examples of oral tradition! (Teaching)

Peter speaks at Pentecost acts 2
Paul speaks at Athens acts
Even Christ teaching the divine revelation to His apostles in person.

WHEN???

When did it become divine revelation?
When did it become the inspired word of God?

When it was Spoken by Christ to His apostles?

When it was taught by the apostles?

When it was Written down decades latter?

When it was canonized by the supreme Roman pontiff in 381?

When did it become the inspired word of God?

If only when written down (Bible alone) then when it was spoken it should have been rejected as mere human tradition or the tradition of men, and therefore they would not possess the truths revealed by God and could not write scripture!

If you believe the false doctrine of the “Bible alone is the only authority” then you must reject the authority of Christ and His apostles!

It is an error to believe that the office or authority of the apostles ended with the apostle John and public revelation, revelation was complete with the apostle John but the teaching authority or office of the apostles must continue till the return of Jesus Christ! Matt 28:19-20 I am with you (the apostles) unto the end of the world.

Tongues of fire at Pentecost represent the light of divine Truth and the fire of divine Love!

The apostles possessed the Authority of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit in their persons! Acts 1:8 2 Jn 1:12










Questions about the doctrine of the “Bible alone” or the “Bible is our only authority”?

How can we know what is scripture?

How can we know what is not scripture?

How can we safeguard and protect scripture from errors?

Who has authority to teach scripture without error?

Where does scripture say: “the Bible alone”?

Why does scripture support tradition? The teaching authority of the apostles?

Who has authority to Authentically interpret scripture?

Where does it say the word of God is limited to the “Bible alone”?

Why does scripture teach the authority of Christ in His church in the persons of the apostles?
AKA The Apostolic Tradition (teaching)





Sola scripture?

Jn 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, andspeak face to face, that our joy may be full.

if an apostle teaches by:

Smoke signals
Sign language
Radio
TV
Internet or
In person

we refuse to accept it!

But if he writes it down then and only then will we believe!

even though the content is exactly the same!

the apostles themselves have no authority!
Only what the write!!!!

fundamentalism is faith without reason, logic, or rational thought!











The problem with the “Bible alone”!

You can easily see why the false doctrine of the “Bible alone” causes so many problems and why we can simply ignor creeds, councils, dogma, and decrees of the holy apostles teaching infallibility with the authority of Christ!

“Bible alone” is false doctrine
Negates the word of God, apostolic councils, creeds, cannons, decrees, dogma, and the teaching authority of the apostles!

The false doctrine of “the Bible Alone” is an attack on Christ and His holy church!
Christ and his church are one acts 9:4
To reject the church or church teaching is to reject Christ!

An attack on the holy church and her divine authority!

Even Christ who is the truth itself is excluded!

verses that refer to authority other than the “Bible Alone” our of your Bible!

Isa 22:21-22 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 1:32 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 Jn 21:17 Acts 1:17 acts 1:26 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 20:28 eph 2:20 and too many more to mention!

The Bible alone is based on spiritual pride, self-righteous private judgement, and personal interpretation, and not truth revealed by God in Christ without error, thru the teaching authority of the apostles!

Spiritual Fathers!

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Matthias]

Sola scripture?

Jn 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, andspeak face to face, that our joy may be full.

if an apostle teaches by:

Smoke signals
Sign language
Radio
TV
Internet or
In person

we refuse to accept it!

But if he writes it down then and only then will we believe!

even though the content is exactly the same!

the apostles themselves have no authority!
Only what the write!!!!

More information below

On the whole, I’ve found that Catholic scholarship deals more honestly with scripture than Protestant scholarship does when it comes to the Trinity. That’s why I’ve said that if I ever become persuaded the Trinity is the one true God that I would likely convert to Catholicism rather than returning to Protestantism.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have my doubts, could be invalid or an imposter

but we must submit to our spiritual fathers

obedience to his ministers is obedience to Christ

but if those "fathers" are teaching you to obey unbiblical commands- you must disobey. Even Paul said- follow me as I follow Christ. We follow christ by faithfulness to teh NT.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jn 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

And if they were crucial for our spiritual growth, don't you think a loving god would have included them in the Saxrewd Book?

if an apostle teaches by:

Smoke signals
Sign language
Radio
TV
Internet or
In person

we refuse to accept it!

But if he writes it down then and only then will we believe!

even though the content is exactly the same!

the apostles themselves have no authority!
Only what the write!!!!

fundamentalism is faith without reason, logic, or rational thought!

Now you are just being childish.

We are talking about what makes it into teh word that is profitable fordoctrine.

all these supposed oral traditions cannot bew verified! and any oral tradition that contradict the written word is not of god! The Bible is our arbiter to decide what other writings and oral traditions are biblical or not! If it doesn't pass the sniff test of what God dec ided to Inspire to be written down to preserve till Jesus returns, we must oppose it no matter who teaches it!

 

[theefaith]

And if they were crucial for our spiritual growth, don't you think a loving god would have included them in the Saxrewd Book?



Now you are just being childish.

We are talking about what makes it into teh word that is profitable fordoctrine.

all these supposed oral traditions cannot bew verified! and any oral tradition that contradict the written word is not of god! The Bible is our arbiter to decide what other writings and oral traditions are biblical or not! If it doesn't pass the sniff test of what God dec ided to Inspire to be written down to preserve till Jesus returns, we must oppose it no matter who teaches it!

so you agree the apostles have no authority!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

so you agree the apostles have no authority!

The apostles are dead! so yes, they have no authority.

 

[farouk]

Wow! Talk about allegorizing things until they no longer teach what God teaches!

Purgatory is a denial of teh efficacy of teh blood of Jesus. It says that teh blood of Jesus is not enough and that is Satan's biggest lie to deceive Catholics.

@Ronald Nolette "It is finished" (John 19.30) is indeed so highly significant. Fits in with Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 which speak of the one offering at the Cross.

 

[Matthias]

”Many of the sacred writers spoke of a Messiah who was to be Yahweh’s agent in establishing the kingdom of Yahweh in the messianic age. However, they regarded the Messiah not as a divine person but as a creature, a charismatic leader, a Davidic king.

Thus the Old Testament writings about God neither express nor imply any idea of or belief in a plurality or trinity of persons within the one Godhead. Even to see in them suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.”

(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 9)

Father Fortman wasn’t denying that the Trinity is the one true God with this comment @theefaith. This is readily apparent to anyone who reads his book. (Few Protestants will; more Catholics should. You know me well enough by now, or should, to know that I encourage everyone to read trinitarian writers.)

What he was doing - what Catholic scholarship generally does better than Protestant scholarship - is allowing people who lived in biblical times to be what they in fact were: non-trinitarians. That’s honest scholarship.

Dr. Brown, a Protestant scholar whom I’ve spoken with you and others about on these forums, asks the critical question:

”Was the transition from the personal monotheism of Israel to the tri-personal theism of Nicaea a legitimate development of Old Testament revelation?”

(Harold O. J. Brown, Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The Church, p. 431)

Being committed to the Council of Nicaea, it’s virtually impossible for me to imagine that you would say that it wasn’t a legitimate development.

I’m not committed to the Council of Nicaea. It will come as no surprise to you that my position is that it wasn’t a legitimate development.

I’m theologically “stuck” in biblical times.

You might appreciate this. A very good friend of mine is a Catholic. He knows what I believe and why I believe it. One day I made the comment to him that I made to you about being theologically “stuck” in biblical times. He good-naturedly said to me, “Get with it, boy! This is the 20th century!”

I laughed and asked him if he would say the same thing to Moses if he had the opportunity to do so. He said he would, paused briefly and then added, “Moses is in heaven. I’m sure someone has already beaten me to it. He knows now what he didn’t know then.”

Ladies and gentlemen, meet Moses the trinitarian.

About a year and a half ago I had a similar conversation with a trinitarian about the prophet Isaiah. He conceded that Isaiah was a unitarian during his lifetime but believes Isaiah converted to trinitarianism after he died and went to heaven.

Here is his argument:

Isaiah didn’t know what was later revealed by the Church. You do. You need to repent and convert before you die.

IF trinitarianism is correct, and IF Isaiah (the unitarian) went to heaven when he died, then he would have been a fool not to convert.

I’m not persuaded by the argument, but there it is. It has a certain logic to it.

I apologize for the length of this post. I seldom read or respond to posts which are this long. I won’t be offended in the least if you don’t read or respond to it.

 

[Matthias]

Dr. Brown again. This time with what he calls “the important question” @theefaith.

“The adoption of the Nicene Creed in 325 and the Chalcedonian Creed in 451 stabilized the doctrine of the Trinity and Christ for over one thousand years. They made use of Hellenistic categories and thinking to do so. The important question to ask is not whether orthodox theology betrays Hellenistic influence. Nothing else was possible in the cultural climate of the time. The important question is whether this orthodoxy represents a proper and correct interpretation of New Testament Christology or whether it seriously distorts it.”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies, Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church, p. 105)

Bold is mine.

You’re aware that I believe orthodoxy is an improper and incorrect interpretation of New Testament Christology.

Dr. Brown, like yourself though not a Roman Catholic, was fully committed to Nicaea and Chalcedon. The primary purpose he wrote his book was to bring trinitarians who have strayed from them back to them. A secondary purpose for his book is to bring readers who are unfamiliar with them to them.

 

[theefaith]

The apostles are dead! so yes, they have no authority.

explain Matt 28:19-20
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Eph 2:20

 

[Ronald Nolette]

explain Matt 28:19-20
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Eph 2:20

Mt. 28--- Teh great commission given to us by Jesus

John-- Yes they were sent

acts 1 yes the church will be witnesses to Jesus throughout the ends of teh earth and we have been.

Yes the church is built first upon Jesus then upon the Apostles teachings- preserved in the New Testament.

But the Apostlesd are still dead and have turned back to dust!

 

[theefaith]

”Many of the sacred writers spoke of a Messiah who was to be Yahweh’s agent in establishing the kingdom of Yahweh in the messianic age. However, they regarded the Messiah not as a divine person but as a creature, a charismatic leader, a Davidic king.

Thus the Old Testament writings about God neither express nor imply any idea of or belief in a plurality or trinity of persons within the one Godhead. Even to see in them suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.”

(Edmund J. Fortman, The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 9)

Father Fortman wasn’t denying that the Trinity is the one true God with this comment @theefaith. This is readily apparent to anyone who reads his book. (Few Protestants will; more Catholics should. You know me well enough by now, or should, to know that I encourage everyone to read trinitarian writers.)

What he was doing - what Catholic scholarship generally does better than Protestant scholarship - is allowing people who lived in biblical times to be what they in fact were: non-trinitarians. That’s honest scholarship.

Dr. Brown, a Protestant scholar whom I’ve spoken with you and others about on these forums, asks the critical question:

”Was the transition from the personal monotheism of Israel to the tri-personal theism of Nicaea a legitimate development of Old Testament revelation?”

(Harold O. J. Brown, Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The Church, p. 431)

Being committed to the Council of Nicaea, it’s virtually impossible for me to imagine that you would say that it wasn’t a legitimate development.

I’m not committed to the Council of Nicaea. It will come as no surprise to you that my position is that it wasn’t a legitimate development.

I’m theologically “stuck” in biblical times.

You might appreciate this. A very good friend of mine is a Catholic. He knows what I believe and why I believe it. One day I made the comment to him that I made to you about being theologically “stuck” in biblical times. He good-naturedly said to me, “Get with it, boy! This is the 20th century!”

I laughed and asked him if he would say the same thing to Moses if he had the opportunity to do so. He said he would, paused briefly and then added, “Moses is in heaven. I’m sure someone has already beaten me to it. He knows now what he didn’t know then.”

Ladies and gentlemen, meet Moses the trinitarian.

About a year and a half ago I had a similar conversation with a trinitarian about the prophet Isaiah. He conceded that Isaiah was a unitarian during his lifetime but believes Isaiah converted to trinitarianism after he died and went to heaven.

Here is his argument:

Isaiah didn’t know what was later revealed by the Church. You do. You need to repent and convert before you die.

IF trinitarianism is correct, and IF Isaiah (the unitarian) went to heaven when he died, then he would have been a fool not to convert.

I’m not persuaded by the argument, but there it is. It has a certain logic to it.

I apologize for the length of this post. I seldom read or respond to posts which are this long. I won’t be offended in the least if you don’t read or respond to it.

the trinity is divine revelation in the fullness of time
Christian doctrine

 

[Matthias]

the trinity is divine revelation in the fullness of time

The “fullness of time” for the doctrine of the Trinity occurs in post-biblical time. We can observe it happening in the work of your theologians.

You believe it to have been divine revelation. Catholics I’ve spoken with have called it “divine inspiration” which, I presume, is another way you speak of divine revelation.

I don’t believe that’s what it was. The doctrine presents us with a deity which the human Jesus doesn’t recognize and acknowledge in scripture.

Christian doctrine

Catholic doctrine.

The human Jesus is a Jew, not a Catholic. His doctrine is Jewish, not Catholic.

Christian doctrine, for me, is the teachings of Jesus and the apostles presented in scripture.

 

[theefaith]

Dr. Brown again. This time with what he calls “the important question” @theefaith.

“The adoption of the Nicene Creed in 325 and the Chalcedonian Creed in 451 stabilized the doctrine of the Trinity and Christ for over one thousand years. They made use of Hellenistic categories and thinking to do so. The important question to ask is not whether orthodox theology betrays Hellenistic influence. Nothing else was possible in the cultural climate of the time. The important question is whether this orthodoxy represents a proper and correct interpretation of New Testament Christology or whether it seriously distorts it.”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies, Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church, p. 105)

Bold is mine.

You’re aware that I believe orthodoxy is an improper and incorrect interpretation of New Testament Christology.

Dr. Brown, like yourself though not a Roman Catholic, was fully committed to Nicaea and Chalcedon. The primary purpose he wrote his book was to bring trinitarians who have strayed from them back to them. A secondary purpose for his book is to bring readers who are unfamiliar with them to them.

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

mystery of the trinity

 

[Matthias]

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

mystery of the trinity

I don’t see anything in scripture about the Trinity being the mystery hidden from ages and from generations. The mystery, that which could only be known by revelation, is that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, the Son of the living God (Matthew 16:17) whom the one God had the prophets speak about.

 

[theefaith]

Mt. 28--- Teh great commission given to us by Jesus

John-- Yes they were sent

acts 1 yes the church will be witnesses to Jesus throughout the ends of teh earth and we have been.

Yes the church is built first upon Jesus then upon the Apostles teachings- preserved in the New Testament.

But the Apostlesd are still dead and have turned back to dust!

so went to the ends of the earth acts 1:8
And to the end of the world Matt 28:19-20

 

[theefaith]

The “fullness of time” for the doctrine of the Trinity occurs in post-biblical time. We can observe it happening in the work of your theologians.

You believe it to have been divine revelation. Catholics I’ve spoken with have called it “divine inspiration” which, I presume, is another way you speak of divine revelation.

I don’t believe that’s what it was. The doctrine presents us with a deity which the human Jesus doesn’t recognize and acknowledge in scripture.



Catholic doctrine.

The human Jesus is a Jew, not a Catholic. His doctrine is Jewish, not Catholic.

Christian doctrine, for me, is the teachings of Jesus and the apostles presented in scripture.

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

 

[theefaith]

When it was defined and decreed is immaterial

The church always believes and teach the same doctrine as Christ revealed

 

[Matthias]

Truth must be revealed by God, and in its fullness in the sacred deposit of faith by Christ to his church! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 and must be taught by the church, or proposed for our belief by the apostles!
Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Jn 20:21 acts 8:31 Rom 1:5 col 2:7 1 Tim 3:15
matt 18:17

Agreed.

 

[Matthias]

When it was defined and decreed is immaterial

No. It’s history. Your scholars and theologians kept a good record of it. It’s available for anyone who wants to see it to read it.

The church always believes and teach the same doctrine as Christ revealed

The true Church should. Surely we can at least agree on that general principle.