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Eternal Security/OSAS embracers have no enemy?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by GEN2REV, Jan 14, 2022.

  1. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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    God has a very determined enemy in this world. As does all of mankind.

    What enemy do those who preach and embrace OSAS have?

    And what danger does that enemy pose?

    If it's only what you deem to be False Teachers/False Prophets, what danger could they pose to you once saved?

    How do you reconcile all the verses throughout scripture that encourage Christians to endure, and to fight, and to run the race to win, and to put on spiritual armor to battle demons and so on and so forth?

    The Bible is clear that Christians are in a daily battle. Are not OSAS believers as well?

    If those who get saved, or are elect, are completely off limits to the adversary and untouchable, why all the repeated warnings to hold fast to faith and watch out for traps and snares, etc.?

    The Bible was written to those God called to His Word, not to those who don't believe. They do not have the Spirit to decipher it, nor to even desire it.

    The wiles of the devil and fiery darts and prowling like a roaring lion seeking only the unsaved to devour? Really?

    Surely some of you are mistaken. The rest will never let go of their convictions that they can do no wrong, nor lose anything once saved and that they will be allowed into heaven among God Almighty and the holy angels in their filthy, sin-stained, robes because they embraced their sin and chose not to commit themselves to God any further once they deemed themselves saved.

    The Bible says we must work to prove that we are approved of God; that WE must work out our salvation. OSAS says this is works salvation and nothing we can do whatsoever has any bearing on our salvation.

    Something is wrong with this modern, popular and trendy doctrine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  2. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    I am going to stop there, at least for now. If this is the main question, I think it is best not to veer off just yet.


    Dropping the 'isms and acronym of OSAS... Those who are [actually] saved have no enemy-- he has been defeated.

    But I suspect that because life goes on with all the trappings and dangers of the same old fallen world, that you also mean to ask: How do you explain the fact that you do not appear to be living in the bliss of heaven, and are even prone to continue to sin?

    It is because the kingdom of heaven is not of this world, but we who have passed from death in the world to life in the world, are as Paul explained, "alive and remain." This is of course not true of all in Christ who died in the world before salvation came. So this is something new--not new in the world, but new as Christ explained, "surely the kingdom of God has come upon you." Do you see the difference? ..Not of the world, but in the world. For which, being "the First of many sons of glory", Jesus said to the Pharisees who were in the world, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world."

    As for ongoing sin-- it is not sin to suffer the effects of ongoing tribulations, for which Christ said, "In Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” Thus, the apostles struggled, Paul struggled and even confessed his inability to be perfect against his own desire to be perfect, and so do we. And there is more...but you have perhaps already expressed an inability to comprehend even that much.

    As for those who have and ear: If you are not of this world, but your sin is-- who's sin is it, but that old man who once lived but is now dead? "Walk therefore in the Spirit"...and "let the dead bury their own dead." "Follow Me."
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022 at 10:13 AM
  3. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the response.

    What do you make of Ephesians 6:12? Is it written only to the unsaved?
     
  4. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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  5. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    It is good that you are posing these as questions.

    I have addressed this several times here lately. This is what Paul referred to as "rightly dividing the word of truth." Which in the logical mind of one who believes that all scripture is true, apparently does not compute. And it is true, that up to and including the gospels and most of the New Testament, all scripture pertained to all. But then Jesus came preaching many hard sayings which many believers still struggle with. Paul referred to it as a need to rightly divide the word. Jesus referred to it as a double-edged sword (word) as cutting both ways. Which is to say, one cutting to the past and to the dead in Christ (those who died before salvation came), but also to the future and that "other" "fold" that Jesus said He "must also bring."

    So...have you done it? Have you sat down and highlighted (divided) those passages that pertain specifically to Israel, from those that specifically pertain to those who after salvation had come were born again of the spirit of God? Well, don't feel bad--very few have. Still...that is the word of counsel to all who have been born since the time of Christ and all the times of the gentiles.

    But who among you has done it? And who among you has argued against his brother without consideration to what should be divided? By the same measure, this is the measure of an unfaithful servant, whom Christ will "cut in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites."


    Nonetheless, you spoke of what was preached to Christians, as if all the gospel was specifically to Christians. But it is not, not as pertaining to them. Some yes, some no. Hence the need to rightly divide it. But it is true that all the gospel is for the benefit of all Christians, meaning all who follow Christ. This is "all truth", as promised, but all of which must be rightly divided.

    And, yes, it is a struggle, a fight, a race, to the end...that is after you have passed from death in the world, to life in the world...and are left here, left in tribulations. For which Jesus said, "But be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

    Suffering, and even failing under tribulations, is no sin. And for this, we have His peace.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  6. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the response.

    I agree.
     
  7. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    No, but to all. It is a reminder of where we are in the world and the terms and what we are subject to, whether saved or not saved.
     
  8. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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    What danger does it pose to those who are saved?
     
  9. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    The same as all who are born of women...intil the flesh dies, like everyone else.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
  10. Taken

    Taken Well-Known Member

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    Salvation is only part of Conversion of being Converted IN Christ.
    Baptism of the Holy Spirit, seems to elude people’s understanding.
    What Battles have I to fight with Gods Spirit IN me? Is Gods Spirit not sufficient to Keep me? My belief is...
    Greater is He that is IN me, than he that is in the World.
    So no, I do not Battle evil spirits. Evil spirits do not lurk about my home and property. There is nothing there for them. My home, property, is under Gods Blessings, as we prayed for. In public places, sure Evil spirits lurk. It is having the same authority as Jesus, to depart from them or command them to back off. (Get behind me, whatever phrase).
    Wicked persons are more easy to spot, and treat the same. If it is “large” groups of the Wicked (rather than individuals here and there), one would care to observe; that is easily accomplished by observing most any “governmental” affiliated institution. For the most part, we watch/observe, but do not play in their sandbox, their programs, freebies, mandates, blah, blah, down to and including keeping the children out of government affiliated schools.

    OSAS is about eternal Salvation.

    * (#1) Salvation in ancient days; and to this day; and through Rev 14: 6,7,8,
    “Men SHALL BECOME SAVED ONCE and FOREVER, for Believing in the Lord God Almighty, at the time of their physical death.”

    * (#2) Salvation for the past 2,000 years; is a gift that was bought, paid for, and offered for any man (WHILE ALIVE IN HIS FLESH) to freely and willfully TAKE, (“IF” he heartfully confessed his belief, Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God)....and THUS ONCE and FOREVER he HAS received Reconciliation “WITH” the Lord God through Conversion IN Christ; ”before his physical death”.

    #1 - Requires the INDIVIDUAL to “KEEP his BELIEF, by his OWN power”.
    A man keeping his own Belief, by his own power...IS the man to whom “ENDURE” is speaking to.
    (YOU can read in Scripture, Even on the internet of men who believed, then QUIT...They Believed, They told others they Believed, Some EVEN Pastors....
    BUT....they never truly BELIEVED in their Hearts...nor Confessed Belief from their Hearts...nor were SAVED <—- oops, they did not “endure”...

    #2 - IS NOT AN INDIVIDUAL “enduring”....ie. “KEEPING his OWN belief by his OWN power!”
    This individual “IS KEPT IN BELIEF, BY the POWER OF GOD “IN” him”!!!
    This individual “IS KEPT reconciled”, “KEPT WITH” the Lord God FOREVER”, By Gods Power.
    This individual “Freely and Willfully” chose to Belong TO the Lord God, that He be their God, and they be His son.
    * THAT is a fulfillment of Gods Desire, would He Himself, NOT KEEP what was heartfully, willfully, freely Given TO Him? God forbid.


    Not so. Read the Scriptures IN the words of Scripture. “Christian” is mentioned only three times.
    Anyone can go to a “CHRISTIAN” church for years, call themself a “Christian”, others call them a “Christian”, AND THEY NOT BE CONVERTED!

    Read the text carefully...Listen carefully...
    “Christian, and Believer, going to church, dipped in water, wearing a cross, etc. are “indicators”....but does NOT MEAN CONVERTED!

    Converted IN Christ, means Converted IN Christ.
    (They, heartfully...are calling on the Lord, Repenting, confessing their belief, laying down their life.....AND willfully and freely Giving the Lord God permission to (do all the Works IN them, He offered to do)...Save their soul and quicken their spirit, etc. )
     
  11. Robert Gwin

    Robert Gwin Well-Known Member

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    The Bible has the answers Gen, in fact it is the only thing that we can take as truth. Jesus said to God that His words is truth, and most likely you agree with that. It is very true that all Christians work, they have an assignment, but keep in mind, they work according to their ability Mat 25:14-30
    We show love for God through our work, but it is never burdensome 1 Jn 5:3
     
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  12. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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    I believe all mankind can be influenced negatively by the demonic without being fully possessed.

    Ephesians 6:12 teaches that. As well as Paul's Thorn-in-his-side. Those who refuse to accept this, claim it means something else, but when you read the scripture surrounding his description of the harassment it causes him for the purpose of keeping him humble, it is difficult to deny.

    2 Corinthians 12:7-9

    Paul himself calls it a "messenger of satan" that was sent to buffet him and keep him down. God's reply to his prayers to remove it stated that Paul was better off being weakened by it for his service to God.

    I also believe the Bible was written to Christians, those who have been called to God's Word and given the Holy Spirit to discern the scriptures. Unbelievers would not have been given the desire to read it, nor the Spirit to discern it. Therefore, all of the warnings in it about the devil prowling, looking for those to devour, as well as all the warnings about traps, snares, idols, falling away, etc. are written to those who are saved; to Bible-Believing Christians.

    Yes, we may have power over demons, but they are always around, waiting for us to make a mistake so they can capitalize on it. Even Christ Himself was harrassed by satan and after He resisted Him in the desert, the scripture says that the devil went away "until a more opportune time." Luke 4:13

    We are not greater than Jesus. Jesus was harassed and stalked relentlessly by evil just exactly as we are. And what is the purpose of that? It is clearly for the intent of knocking us off course. I am 100% convinced by scripture as a whole, that a Christian can be knocked off the path to salvation, and that many are. Otherwise there would be no teachings of the wide and narrow road.

    If all born again Christians would make it to heaven without fail, the road would not be narrow and it be stated that "few will find it." Matthew 7:14
     
  13. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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    So you believe the only danger the devil poses to a saved individual, at worst, is the death of the physical body.

    You don't believe the enemy can cause anyone severe spiritual damage as well?

    Is it possible that somebody's name can be removed from the Book of Life?

    Note: If their name is in that book, that person is in a saved state as long as it is.
     
  14. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly. No, Satan (or the devil) does not have the power over life and death, only God does.

    As for spiritual damage, a saved person has the spirit of God, so no, Satan cannot cause spiritual damage to God or anyone in God. If you did not mean the spirit of God or that of a saved person, but rather an unsaved person...that spirit is already evil, the damage is already done. Both are fallen.
    I see what you are getting at. But none are removed after the fact, after it is finished. In other words, if one "was" raised up with Christ, Jesus has already confessed their name before the Father, and it is finished. So then, if one does not believe in their heart that it is finished, it is indeed, not finished.

    But this all speaks of the illusion of time, which God is not under. Therefore, if one believes the world is still their master, they are under that master and not under God. You cannot serve two masters. And this speaks of "the end" which men struggle with understanding...because they have not seen it. These would be wise to heed all warnings from God, all that is written regarding their salvation.

    And now I have defined the end for you.
     
  15. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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    If satan draws someone away from God, which is his primary goal upon all mankind, he can certainly do spiritual damage; spiritual destruction.
    It sounds a lot like you're claiming 'once fallen, always fallen.' That contradicts James 5:20; and a lot of other things, really.
    Revelation 3:5 & Revelation 17:8 contradict your claim here.

    "He that overcometh, ... I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life, but I will confess his name before My Father, ..."
    Revelation 3:5

    He doesn't confess someone's name until they have fully overcome and endured.

    "... they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (after the beast), whose names were not (never) written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, ..."
    Revelation 17:8

    Not everyone's name is written in the book.

    We are written into the Lamb's Book of Life when we the process of salvation begins.

    We are blotted out by Jesus when we fall away.
     
  16. Bob Estey

    Bob Estey Well-Known Member

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    Whoever we are, and whatever we believe, the Lord will allow us to experience the consequences of what we do. For example, if I rob a bank, I'll likely spend a lot of time in prison. That is what we all have to fear - unless, of course, we choose not to rob banks.
     
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  17. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    That is not biblical.

    John 10:29
    My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

    1 John 4:4
    You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.​
    No, your being vague, does not mean I left out the saved. On the contrary, because you were vague, I answered both possibilities.

    Below you even mix them up...and that is the problem.
    No, you are mixing those things written of the saved and the unsaved. I did not contradict, but rightly divided them...which you have not done.

    Moreover, it was I who pointed out to you and defined what is meant by "the end", and when one is saved or not by Jesus' confessing their name to the Father-- Except you didn't get it. You are trying to fit it all into the days, and weeks and the times of this world, which are evil-- which Paul warned about and was fearful of (Galatians 4:10 / Ephesians 5:16). But "what communion has light with darkness?"

    You mix the evil of this world with these matters of heaven, but God does not. It is not I who contradict--but you, and you do it against God.

    Your agenda is like one digging a hole, and it's getting deeper.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2022
  18. GEN2REV

    GEN2REV Well-Known Member

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    Classically leaving out verse 27 there which states the condition for this promise of God to stand.

    John 10:27 IF you follow the Shepherd.
    IF you continue after Jesus.
    This verse also relies upon all of the conditional verses that exist throughout scripture for God's promises to stand.

    I don't know what in the world you're claiming I'm mixing up. Revelations 3:5 and 17:8 speak for themselves.

    1. Not everybody in the world is written in the Lamb's Book of Life per Revelation 17:8
    2. It is only after a person's life, at the point of judgment, that Jesus confesses names before God per Revelation 3:4-5 (Also, garments are given once the process of salvation begins. Verse 4 shows some with garments not being accepted; those with clean, unstained by sin, garments - who have overcome - will not have their names removed from the Book and THEN their names will be confessed.)
    3. Names can, and will, be blotted out (erased) from the Book of Life - Revelation 3:5 (They can't be erased from a book they weren't in. That's loss of salvation.)

    This stuff is straightforward in God's Word. ​
     
  19. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    As long as you do not comply with the full instructions of the Biblical narrative and come around to "rightly divide the word of truth" that was beforehand only told as unified, you will forever find conflict and turn to arguments.

    This is nothing new. The same problem began in the garden where the serpent also pit one bit of God's truth against another.

    So, go ahead, continue your approach.

    But I have told you the truth-- which does not pit one passage against another, but reconciles and rightly divides all truth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022 at 10:05 AM
  20. Oceanprayers

    Oceanprayers Active Member

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