Eternal Security

[Nancy]

I see a lot of how context is so important, which it is! But, I rarely if ever see anybody mentioning whether their particular scripture, depending on context, was Jesus speaking to Hebrews at the time, who were still under the Law just as Jesus was born under. Nor do I ever see mentioned, was something said, or taking place before or after the cross. Seems important to me to know these things...jmo.

 

[BobRyan]

I see a lot of how context is so important, which it is! But, I rarely if ever see anybody mentioning whether their particular scripture, depending on context, was Jesus speaking to Hebrews at the time, who were still under the Law just as Jesus was born under. Nor do I ever see mentioned, was something said, or taking place before or after the cross. Seems important to me to know these things...jmo.

The NT writer is not reporting the teaching of Jesus as something "not to be listened to".
In Matthew 28 "the great commission" is to "teach them " what Christ had taught - rather than to tell them that what Christ taught is of no concern since it no longer applies.

20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

 

[Nancy]

The NT writer is not reporting the teaching of Jesus as something "not to be listened to".
In Matthew 28 "the great commission" is to "teach them " what Christ had taught - rather than to tell them that what Christ taught is of no concern since it no longer applies.

20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

And where did you get this- "The NT writer is not reporting the teaching of Jesus as something "not to be listened to". - from my comment??

 

[BobRyan]

And where did you get this- "The NT writer is not reporting the teaching of Jesus as something "not to be listened to". - from my comment??

You asked whether "this particular scripture" might be just for Jews - just for those under the Law, just for Old Covenant condemnation of the Law, and not at all meant for New Covenant Christians, did I get that right?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You see two sets of commandments?
What are they?
What are the Father's commands?
What are Jesus' commands?

The Father's commands are the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20
Jesus' commands are to have faith in Himself, and to love. 1 John 3:23

Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

We are no longer under a tutor. You may have been taught that the only law this is talking about are sacrifices. No, the righteous requirements of the law have to do with the Ten Commandments. Romans 7 shows this to be true: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

John 14
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Instead of John arguing that Christ's commandments should never be thought of as "God's Commandments" - John argues that they cannot be anything OTHER than the Word of the Father.

The Father's commands are the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20

As are Christ's - Hebrews 8 says it is Christ speaking at Sinai
Hebrews 8
8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest (Christ) also have something to offer. 4 Now if He (Christ) were on earth, He (Christ) would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He (Christ) says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He (Christ) is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He (Christ) says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord (YHWH),
When I (Christ) will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I (Christ) made with their fathers
On the day when I (Christ) took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My (Christ's) covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord (Christ).
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

It was Christ at Sinai according to Hebrews 8.

It was Christ "every day" in the wilderness wanderings of Israel.

1 Cor 10
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the Rock was Christ

So that is "Christ" saying "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 according to Hebrews 8.

 

[GodsGrace]

Refer to post #566.

I just read it and had read it already when you posted it.
You don't care to discuss this....OK.
But how about changing your wording so that it doesn't SOUND like you're saying it's OK to sin.

1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil...
I'd say in action and in word.

 

[GodsGrace]

Would it not be extremely strange that after having planned for the redemption of sinners from before the foundation of the world, He would see His salvation come to nothing?

There are no such verses as you claim. And here's the proof:


Well since the Bible teaches no such nonsense, why don't get a grasp of the truth about this matter? Who teaches such an absurd doctrine?

Actually, persons of faith were always saved; but Jesus did redeeem them.
He bought them back from satan since satan won the battle in the Garden of Eden.
Death came to man, but Jesus conquered death through the resurrection and so we will also be resurrected in a glorious body.

So how does this make His salvation come to nothing?
If we BELIEVE in Jesus we are saved........
If we DO NOT BELIEVE in Jesus we are NOT saved.....

It takes faith to be saved.
If we have faith, we're saved.
If we lose faith, we are no longer saved.

Will God allow everyone to enter into heaven?
Those who believe in Him and those who don't?
Is Jesus blood what cleanses us?
Revelation 21:27

What would cleanse us if we abandon our Lord?

And please don't tell me this is an absurd doctrine that is taught by some....
Read YOUR post no. 639

@1stCenturyLady said:
If you continue in sin, you have no assurance whatsoever of eternal life.

To which you replied:
Let's disabuse ourselves of all this nonsense.

So, as some others also seem to state that we are not under the law, which does sound like it's OK to sin, YOU yourself have made such a statement.

How is not obeying God nonsense?

Please find me a verse that states we could live a life of sin and still be saved.
What I find is Paul and others exhorting us not to sin.
Romans 13:8-13

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes God demands obedience to the Law. But by your terminology, you are placing the believer under the Mosaic Law. That is the sound of the voice of God with you and I under Law. "Demands Obedience".

Under Grace the sound of the voice of God is different. (Rom. 6:1-2) "...Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

(Rom. 6:11-13) "...reckon ye also your selves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ...Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof...Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God...and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

And even in the verses you gave in (Rom. 12:1-2) Paul does not 'Demand Obedience'. He says, "I beseech you brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice...which is your reasonable service." In other words, Paul does not say obey the Law now that you have the Spirit of God. He says because God has done this for you then it is your reasonable service to yield your body, present your body as a living sacrifice to Him. "

Stranger

Let me say this:
If you agree with me that we should not sin and that we should obey God,
WHY are you arguing this point with me?

Those who do not know God and are not saved have no need to obey Him.
Those of us who are saved MUST obey Him... our salvation depends on our obedience.

Did Jesus Himself not say that our deeds will be judged?
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

The very verses YOU posted speak to this.
You posted:

(Rom. 6:11-13) "...reckon ye also your selves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ...Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof...Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God...and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

And even in the verses you gave in (Rom. 12:1-2) Paul does not 'Demand Obedience'. He says, "I beseech you brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice...which is your reasonable service." In other words, Paul does not say obey the Law now that you have the Spirit of God. He says because God has done this for you then it is your reasonable service to yield your body, present your body as a living sacrifice to Him. "

Paul is indeed saying to obey the law, in all the highlighted above. In almost every letter he wrote, Paul speaks to this. As you well know...

BTW, here's the meaning of beseech...

beseech
bɪˈsiːtʃ/
verb
literary

1. ask someone urgently and fervently to do or give something.
   "they beseeched him to stay"
   sinonimi: implore, beg, entreat, importune, plead with, appeal to, exhort, ask urgently, petition, call on, supplicate, pray to, adjure;

 

[GodsGrace]

True. I knew someone who at one time was a strong Christian -- then started cheating on his wife for about a year... then got caught and after some time he came back to Christ and to his wife. But then he had an even "bigger" problem because he believed in OSAS. And now he finds that no matter how sincere he is in coming back to Christ - it is not "different" than when he was saved before which leaves him doubting his current state of salvation. Not until he sees that 20 years from today he also will not backslide can he know that today he really is saved, (according to that version of OSAS). It is not helping him at all.

It's wonderful that we can know that today is the day of our salvation.
We have free will and can know that if we desire to stay with Christ, we will be saved forever.

But we must walk with Him and toward Him and not change direction.
Some make it sound like we could change our direction and go back toward the enemy and still be saved.

I feel some may lose their salvation because some make it sound as though it would be OK to continue in sin because they walked down an isle and got "saved" at some point in their life.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not as brainy or well articulated as some on here, though I do try and I love to read...I guess my thoughts just fly way too fast and I get ahead of myself. I know you are correct in that as I have re-read several of my posts and found large chunks I forgot to put in there, or it's messy or nor in the right order of what I tried to say. I will try to word my self better.

You're such a nice person Nancy...
And very smart...

• 

 

[GodsGrace]

Not according to Christ in Matthew 19



Jesus said that He spoke nothing at all of "His" own but only what the Father speaks.

John 14
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Instead of John arguing that Christ's commandments should never be thought of as "God's Commandments" - John argues that they cannot be anything OTHER than the Word of the Father.

Amen...agreed.

I'd like to hear how some believe there are TWO sets of commandments.
I've never heard this before.

 

[BobRyan]

I feel some may lose their salvation because some make it sound as though it would be OK to continue in sin because they walked down an isle and got "saved" at some point in their life.

Ok so there are two forms of OSAS. Many times the free-will group that I identify with will reduce OSAS to one form - but there are two forms of it.

1. Affirms the Bible doctrine on the "perseverance of the saints" - and won't allow OSAS to be claimed unless the person really does persevere-firm-to-the end of their life. So while they "claim" they have OSAS - realistically they have no actual "assurance" until they see they persevered, because if they fail - they will "retro-delete" all past claims to OSAS for a given person prior to that fail.
2. Denies the Bible doctrine on "perseverance" and so embraces a "live-like-the-devil yet saved-anyway" form of gospel.

Your statement is specific to that second flavor of OSAS - which means you will sometimes get complaints from those in the first OSAS group where they say they don't believe in that sort of OSAS as you have identified.

Just FYI.

 

[BobRyan]

It's wonderful that we can know that today is the day of our salvation.
We have free will and can know that if we desire to stay with Christ, we will be saved forever.

Amen! Those who accept the Bible doctrine on free will "can have the assurance today" that they ARE saved, they are in Christ.. but what they cannot know is that 20 years from today they WILL still be saved.

However the OSAS person that is in the 3-point or 5-point Calvinist group, cannot even know that -- because as I noted above they don't really know if their experience today is "legit" until they see that 20 years from today they did not backslide into apostasy or rebellion.

 

[gadar perets]

John 14
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Instead of John arguing that Christ's commandments should never be thought of as "God's Commandments" - John argues that they cannot be anything OTHER than the Word of the Father.

I totally agree.

As are Christ's - Hebrews 8 says it is Christ speaking at Sinai
Hebrews 8
8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest (Christ) also have something to offer. 4 Now if He (Christ) were on earth, He (Christ) would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He (Christ) says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He (Christ) is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He (Christ) says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord (YHWH),
When I (Christ) will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I (Christ) made with their fathers
On the day when I (Christ) took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My (Christ's) covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord (Christ).
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

It was Christ at Sinai according to Hebrews 8.

This is one of the worst cases I have ever seen of reading the Son into a text. Verses 5 & 7-10 are all referring to YHWH (Yeshua's Father - Psalm 2:7).

 

[GodsGrace]

The Father's commands are the Ten Commandments. Exodus 20
Jesus' commands are to have faith in Himself, and to love. 1 John 3:23

Galatians 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

We are no longer under a tutor. You may have been taught that the only law this is talking about are sacrifices. No, the righteous requirements of the law have to do with the Ten Commandments. Romans 7 shows this to be true: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Romans 8:1-4 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

The Father's commandments are the 10 commandments...and so are Jesus'.
He spoke of the commandments when the rich young man asked Jesus what he must do to obtain eternal life. Jesus answered that if he wanted to enter into LIFE, he must keep the commandments.
Mathew 19:16-21
My personal opinion is that Jesus did not mention the commandments directed toward God because it was obvious the young man wanted to please God and was a Jew. Mark's account is slightly different...it says that Jesus gazed upon the young man. What might He have seen?

Jesus said to love the Father and to love Him. To believe in the Father and to believe in HIM.
John 14:1 We are to BELIEVE in Jesus...
John 3:16
To believe in Jesus means to trust Him and follow Him...if we believe in Him, we will follow His commandments, which as He Himself stated, are the same as the Father's.

Your second, third and fourth paragraphs encapsulate the theology of the New Testament. I'm willing to speak about this, but it would require so much time.
If you're interested, could you post one paragraph at a time?

Of course I agree with it all, but the explanation of it is a bit complicated...you just posted the verses...do we all understand what they mean?

For instance, what does Galatians 3:24 mean if men were always justified by faith?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Others have been deceived into thinking something is not a sin and feel free to do it such as working on the Sabbath or eating swine's flesh. Both are still forbidden under the New Covenant.

Neither are in the New Covenant. Can you show me where they are? That is in your own mind.

We are to enter God's true rest. The rest Jesus entered into after He completed His own works. Grace.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them.

And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”

 

[BobRyan]

This is one of the worst cases I have ever seen of reading the Son into a text. Verses 5 & 7-10 are all referring to YHWH (Yeshua's Father - Psalm 2:7).

Both the Father and the Son are called YHWH in the OT not just in the NT case of Hebrews 8 -- the Father is not the "High Priest" of Hebrews 8. See the details in the chapter


Hebrews 8
just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He (Christ) says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He (Christ) is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He (Christ) says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord (YHWH),
When I (Christ) will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I (Christ) made with their fathers

Many texts in the NT where the OT YHWH is applied to Christ

 

[gadar perets]

Neither are in the New Covenant. Can you show me where they are? That is in your own mind.

A command does not need to be reiterated in the NT for it to be obeyed. We are not told to abstain from bestiality, sex with a family member, sex during a woman's period, moving our neighbor's boundary markers, etc. Anyone who does any of those things sins greatly in the eyes of YHWH even though the NT does not specifically forbid them. However, the Sabbath is mentioned in Acts several times and the Colossians were told to not allow outsiders to judge how they keep it.

We are to enter God's true rest. The rest Jesus entered into after He completed His own works. Grace.

Yeshua entered his rest upon his resurrection just as we will.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them.

Is murder, adultery, stealing, coveting, making graven images, taking YHWH's name in vain, dishonoring parents, bearing false witness, and idolatry lawful for you? No. Neither is breaking the Sabbath or eating unclean.

And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”

God gave Peter the interpretation of the vision. You have no right to add your own interpretation to it.

"..., but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean."
​

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Another is to point out sin. The latter function still remains.

No it doesn't. Not if you have the Holy Spirit. He, Himself, shows you what is sin, not the law, because it goes far beyond the laws of sin and death. It goes even to small trespasses that prevent us from being perfect. He helps us overcome even them. Does that sound like lawlessness to you?

How many scriptures have to tell you that the law was only needed UNTIL we received the Holy Spirit that is given as a free gift to all who repent of all sin and trust in Jesus?

You believe we are still in the flesh, but that is NOT what scripture tells us about a Christian. About the world, yes. And the false doctrine of the Reformation that seems to have tainted the whole church, even Messianics. Is the world all you can relate to? Well, I can't relate to the world any longer; not for 41 years. When I was baptized in the Spirit (after 30 years of struggle with sin while attending church, so I can relate to your struggle), the power of sin was completely broken. That is what I know - the power of the Holy Spirit. But, I've got news for you. During the first 30 years of going to church and believing the law (I was SDA), I wasn't saved. I didn't have the Holy Spirit. Not every person who claims to be Christian are saved. Between the saved and the unsaved in the world is one difference -those who have the Holy Spirit, and those who don't. That is true in the Church as well.

Those who are in the flesh WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God. Don't be deceived. A Christian does not willfully sin and remain saved. To believe you are saved no matter what is the doctrine for itching ears, that turns the grace of God into licentiousness.