Eternal Security

[Jun2u]

1. Affirms the Bible doctrine on the "perseverance of the saints" - and won't allow OSAS to be claimed unless the person really does persevere-firm-to-the end of their life. So while they "claim" they have OSAS - realistically they have no actual "assurance" until they see they persevered, because if they fail - they will "retro-delete" all past claims to OSAS for a given person prior to that fail.

Those who do NOT believe in the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine has no clue at all what the cross is all about. I will not expound on this.

Only this: “God is the Author and finisher of our faith” Hebrews 12 :2. Jesus is the one who perseveres for us and since we are in Him, we too persevere!!!

2. Denies the Bible doctrine on "perseverance" and so embraces a "live-like-the-devil yet saved-anyway" form of gospel.

The above must be read in light of Romans 7:14-25, but pay close attention to verses 24-25.

To God Be The Glory

 

[gadar perets]

Both the Father and the Son are called YHWH in the OT not just in the NT case of Hebrews 8

Please list those verses.

-- the Father is not the "High Priest" of Hebrews 8. See the details in the chapter

The verses that mention the High Priest refer to Yeshua. Everything quoted from Jeremiah 31 refers to the Father (YHWH).

Hebrews 8
just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He (YHWH) says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He (Christ) is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He (YHWH) says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord (YHWH),
When I (YHWH) will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I (YHWH) made with their fathers

Many texts in the NT where the OT YHWH is applied to Christ

You mean, "misunderstood to apply to Christ".

 

[1stCenturyLady]

John 14
8 Philip *said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

Instead of John arguing that Christ's commandments should never be thought of as "God's Commandments" - John argues that they cannot be anything OTHER than the Word of the Father.



As are Christ's - Hebrews 8 says it is Christ speaking at Sinai
Hebrews 8
8 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest (Christ) also have something to offer. 4 Now if He (Christ) were on earth, He (Christ) would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He (Christ) says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He (Christ) is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, He (Christ) says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord (YHWH),
When I (Christ) will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I (Christ) made with their fathers
On the day when I (Christ) took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My (Christ's) covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord (Christ).
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

It was Christ at Sinai according to Hebrews 8.

It was Christ "every day" in the wilderness wanderings of Israel.

1 Cor 10
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the Rock was Christ

So that is "Christ" saying "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 according to Hebrews 8.

"The law is not of faith." You cannot receive the gift of the Holy Spirit by any other means than repenting of all sin unto Jesus. Without the Holy Spirit you are not saved, no matter if you rotely keep every commandment of sin and death.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Father's commandments are the 10 commandments...and so are Jesus'.
He spoke of the commandments when the rich young man asked Jesus what he must do to obtain eternal life. Jesus answered that if he wanted to enter into LIFE, he must keep the commandments.
Mathew 19:16-21
My personal opinion is that Jesus did not mention the commandments directed toward God because it was obvious the young man wanted to please God and was a Jew. Mark's account is slightly different...it says that Jesus gazed upon the young man. What might He have seen?

Jesus said to love the Father and to love Him. To believe in the Father and to believe in HIM.
John 14:1 We are to BELIEVE in Jesus...
John 3:16
To believe in Jesus means to trust Him and follow Him...if we believe in Him, we will follow His commandments, which as He Himself stated, are the same as the Father's.

Your second, third and fourth paragraphs encapsulate the theology of the New Testament. I'm willing to speak about this, but it would require so much time.
If you're interested, could you post one paragraph at a time?

Of course I agree with it all, but the explanation of it is a bit complicated...you just posted the verses...do we all understand what they mean?

For instance, what does Galatians 3:24 mean if men were always justified by faith?

Jesus kept the Ten Commandments, but His new commandments go far deeper than the surface commandments of Exodus 20. That is how they are different.

Keeping just the Ten Commandments, one could break the commandments of Jesus.
Keeping the commandments of Jesus, one cannot break the Ten Commandments.

Do you see the difference?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

However, the Sabbath is mentioned in Acts several times and the Colossians were told to not allow outsiders to judge how they keep it.

The Jews met on the Sabbath in the temple. If you want to preach to them, you have to go where they are.

You have interpreted Colossians 2:16 completely opposite of what is meant. Where is there an example of what you are saying? There is none. What Paul is saying is don't let Judaizers of the law steal your liberty by imposing restrictions of what you can eat and what days to keep in the flesh. Read further in chapter 2.

Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, WHY, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

This is not the first time I've shown you that you are teaching the opposite of what Colossians 2:16 means, and yet you keep teaching the same thing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand plain speaking. So why would you presume to twist Paul's meaning to fit your own doctrine?

 

[Nancy]

You asked whether "this particular scripture" might be just for Jews - just for those under the Law, just for Old Covenant condemnation of the Law, and not at all meant for New Covenant Christians, did I get that right?

"this particular scripture" Not sure I mentioned any specific script.
And, I still believe that certain scriptures are aimed at Jews-those who rejected Jesus and still believe the Law will save them. And, the N.C. began at Jesus death so...yes, I think audience is important. Every word in the bible is meant for Christians but, The New Covenant, brings a new priesthood and with Jesus being our High Priest now,under the N.C. there is no longer need for law as He fulfilled it-because a mere human being could never do it. Romans 6:14, 15: “Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.” His desires, and His commandments are now etched on the lining of our hearts (Christians)
Romans 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God"
Romans 7:13 "Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. The Law can NEVER save. As far as His audience for context, I believe that is very important. The Pharisees also followed Him around, not for His worship of course but, to snag Him with what they (thought) they could. Take the Sermon o the Mount Matthew 5:7 , for instance. There were many there who believed and those who thought they were righteous in their own right...in verse 20, he starts to speaking of the Pharisees, then goes on to talk about perfection...cut out your eye, cut off your hand...be perfect...I think He is directing these things to them. Just because Jesus spoke, does not mean everything He said were directed to everybody! So, very important for me.
So, just to stick to the OP (sorry @Rollo Tamasi - didn't mean to trash your thread ) I believe that if we are "truly filled with the Spirit of God" there is no way one COULD walk away. Why would they? You can't just have a little taste and think you are saved...we need to feed on His word daily and take every thought captive and pray His will to become our own, if we work OUT what has been placed WITHIN...we will bear His fruit, no way around it.
peace

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God"

1 Timothy 1:8-11 "But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust."

 

[Stranger]

The righteousness of God is through faith (Romans 3:22). Faith establishes the Law (Romans 3:31). Obedience to the Law is a fruit of our salvation and justification, not the means to them.

Note you gave reference to your first statements in the Scripture as they were correct statements. You failed to give reference of Scripture to your last statement. Why?

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

The Jews met on the Sabbath in the temple. If you want to preach to them, you have to go where they are.

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.​

This took place in a synagogue in Antioch, not the temple in Jerusalem. The Gentiles waited until the next Sabbath to hear the Word. Why didn't Paul preach to them the next day for their Sunday service? Because there was no such thing as a Sunday service. So the Gentiles came the next Sabbath to hear the Word.

You have interpreted Colossians 2:16 completely opposite of what is meant. Where is there an example of what you are saying? There is none. What Paul is saying is don't let Judaizers of the law steal your liberty by imposing restrictions of what you can eat and what days to keep in the flesh. Read further in chapter 2.

Paul was referring to not allowing anyone outside the Body of Messiah to judge believers as to how they kept Sabbaths, Feasts, or dietary laws. Yes, they were imposing their man made traditions upon the Colossians.

Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, WHY, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

Yes, they were imposing their worldly regulations and doctrines of men upon the believers. They were not imposing the commandments of YHWH on the believers.

This is not the first time I've shown you that you are teaching the opposite of what Colossians 2:16 means, and yet you keep teaching the same thing. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand plain speaking. So why would you presume to twist Paul's meaning to fit your own doctrine? Don't you care about truth?

You are full of pride and are ignorant concerning the subject of the Sabbath. You are certainly not a "1st century lady". They all obeyed YHWH and kept the Sabbath until deceived Christianity changed it to Sunday or abolished it altogether. Christians can't decide which is true, abolished or changed to Sunday. The fact is, neither is true. The Sabbath will always be on the 7th day and it remains for true believers to be blessed by.

 

[Stranger]

There we go again!

It's ALL ABOUT obedience to the law.
Do you believe it's a good idea to proclaim that it's not about obedience to the law?

Galatians 5 speaks about the spirit and the flesh. We are no longer under a yoke of SLAVERY.....Jesus died to free us from the slavery to our sinful nature...but we are not to abuse our freedom...Paul warns repeatedly against this...he warns us that we are to live a life of obedience...why say anything else with our words??

Galatians 5:13-24
13For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
14For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
15But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Herein is your problem. It is not about obedience to the Law. It is about walking in the Spirit. For some reason you cannot distinguish the two.

Stranger

 

[Nancy]

Note you gave reference to your first statements in the Scripture as they were correct statements. You failed to give reference of Scripture to your last statement. Why?

Stranger

I am wondering the same thing. Is not "The fruit of the Spirit" that Christians produce:

1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Longsuffering
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self-control

 

[gadar perets]

Note you gave reference to your first statements in the Scripture as they were correct statements. You failed to give reference of Scripture to your last statement. Why?

Stranger

Believe it or not, that was a prophetic word given to me through a Sunday keeping pastor in order to confirm my belief in the Sabbath. I was asked the question, "what ever happened to the Sabbath" by a sister in our church. I had no idea what the Sabbath was so I began studying the issue. I prayerfully examined every Sabbath Scripture using Strong's Concordance to find them. Then I studied Scriptures about the Law. I concluded that nothing happened to the Sabbath and that we should still be keeping it. I prayed for confirmation that what I was believing was true. A few weeks later a visiting pastor from the USA came to St. Croix in the USVI. He did not know me, nor I him. During a Wednesday night prayer meeting he stood up and began giving a message. Among what he said was, "I have given you the key you need to lock the back door. It will be delivered by one young in the Lord. It will not be a work for salvation, but because of salvation." When he was finished, I broke down in tears because I knew that was the confirmation I prayed for. I can never turn my back on the Sabbath after having my belief confirmed by YHWH Himself.

 

[Stranger]

Let me say this:
If you agree with me that we should not sin and that we should obey God,
WHY are you arguing this point with me?

Those who do not know God and are not saved have no need to obey Him.
Those of us who are saved MUST obey Him... our salvation depends on our obedience.

Did Jesus Himself not say that our deeds will be judged?
John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

The very verses YOU posted speak to this.
You posted:

(Rom. 6:11-13) "...reckon ye also your selves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ...Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof...Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God...and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

And even in the verses you gave in (Rom. 12:1-2) Paul does not 'Demand Obedience'. He says, "I beseech you brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice...which is your reasonable service." In other words, Paul does not say obey the Law now that you have the Spirit of God. He says because God has done this for you then it is your reasonable service to yield your body, present your body as a living sacrifice to Him. "

Paul is indeed saying to obey the law, in all the highlighted above. In almost every letter he wrote, Paul speaks to this. As you well know...

BTW, here's the meaning of beseech...

beseech
bɪˈsiːtʃ/
verb
literary

1. ask someone urgently and fervently to do or give something.
   "they beseeched him to stay"
   sinonimi: implore, beg, entreat, importune, plead with, appeal to, exhort, ask urgently, petition, call on, supplicate, pray to, adjure;

I argue with you because your motivation is keeping the Law. My motivation is walking in the Spirit. We are both after the same things. Your method, motivation, will not work. Because you will always be breaking the Law. My method, which isn't mine but the method laid out by God in the New Testament, will work. Because walking in the Spirit will accomplish those things written in the Law. But I don't do them to be obedient to the Law. For some reason you have a mental or spiritual block against that.

Stranger

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.​

This took place in a synagogue in Antioch, not the temple in Jerusalem. The Gentiles waited until the next Sabbath to hear the Word. Why didn't Paul preach to them the next day for their Sunday service? Because there was no such thing as a Sunday service. So the Gentiles came the next Sabbath to hear the Word.


Paul was referring to not allowing anyone outside the Body of Messiah to judge believers as to how they kept Sabbaths, Feasts, or dietary laws. Yes, they were imposing their man made traditions upon the Colossians.


Yes, they were imposing their worldly regulations and doctrines of men upon the believers. They were not imposing the commandments of YHWH on the believers.


You are full of pride and are ignorant concerning the subject of the Sabbath. You are certainly not a "1st century lady". They all obeyed YHWH and kept the Sabbath until deceived Christianity changed it to Sunday or abolished it altogether. Christians can't decide which is true, abolished or changed to Sunday. The fact is, neither is true. The Sabbath will always be on the 7th day and it remains for true believers to be blessed by.

The Sabbath is on the 7th day, but I have faith in Christ EVERYDAY.

 

[Stranger]

I am wondering the same thing. Is not "The fruit of the Spirit" that Christians produce:

1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Longsuffering
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self-control

Yes.

Stranger

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are full of pride and are ignorant concerning the subject of the Sabbath. You are certainly not a "1st century lady".

Because you don't have evidence of the Spirit of God in you, and don't know any better, I'm not going to report you...this time.

 

[Stranger]

Believe it or not, that was a prophetic word given to me through a Sunday keeping pastor in order to confirm my belief in the Sabbath. I was asked the question, "what ever happened to the Sabbath" by a sister in our church. I had no idea what the Sabbath was so I began studying the issue. I prayerfully examined every Sabbath Scripture using Strong's Concordance to find them. Then I studied Scriptures about the Law. I concluded that nothing happened to the Sabbath and that we should still be keeping it. I prayed for confirmation that what I was believing was true. A few weeks later a visiting pastor from the USA came to St. Croix in the USVI. He did not know me, nor I him. During a Wednesday night prayer meeting he stood up and began giving a message. Among what he said was, "I have given you the key you need to lock the back door. It will be delivered by one young in the Lord. It will not be a work for salvation, but because of salvation." When he was finished, I broke down in tears because I knew that was the confirmation I prayed for. I can never turn my back on the Sabbath after having my belief confirmed by YHWH Himself.

I have no problem with you keeping the Sabbath. If you believe that is what the Lord wants you to do, fine. That is between you and Him. I have a problem with you wanting to place other believers under Law.

Stranger

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I have no problem with you keeping the Sabbath. If you believe that is what the Lord wants you to do, fine. That is between you and Him. I have a problem with you wanting to place other believers under Law.

Stranger

You say you walk in the Spirit. But you also argue for being a sinner. Which is it? The law is for sinners, and not for the righteous. And yet, you say you are not under the law.

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

If a sinner has undergone being cleansed of all sin, and is not in the flesh but in the Spirit, how are they still dirty - a sinner.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."

Tell yourself the truth of what Scripture says of you, and it will help you stay unyoked to bondage. You are either a saint or a sinner. Choose.

 

[Stranger]

You say you walk in the Spirit. But you also argue for being a sinner. Which is it? The law is for sinners, and not for the righteous. And yet, you say you are not under the law.

knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine.

If a sinner has undergone being cleansed of all sin, and is not in the flesh but in the Spirit, how are they still dirty - a sinner.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."

Tell yourself the truth of what Scripture says of you, and it will help you stay unyoked to bondage. You are either a saint or a sinner. Choose.

I am both. A saint and a sinner.

Why did Paul call himself the 'chief' of sinners at the end of his ministry? (1 Tim. 1:15)

Stranger

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I am both. A saint and a sinner.

Why did Paul call himself the 'chief' of sinners at the end of his ministry? (1 Tim. 1:15)

Stranger

Why did he also say we are dead to sin? Obviously he was referring to the heinous acts he did while yet a sinner. He was still feeling the shame of those acts, not that he was still doing them.