Eternal Security

[gadar perets]

Then you don't understand the Body either. We are members one of another. WE are of the same essence. We are all human. From the human family of beings. The Father and the Son are divine. From the family of God beings...Elohim...plural.

The difference is, you say Yeshua is YHWH, but you can't say believer A is also believer B and also believer C. You make the Father and Son literally the same being, but you can't say the same of believers.

Also, "Elohim" is not a family of God beings. Men are called "elohim" as well (Psalm 82:6). That is the kind of elohim Yeshua is.

 

[Episkopos]

The difference is, you say Yeshua is YHWH, but you can't say believer A is also believer B and also believer C. You make the Father and Son literally the same being, but you can't say the same of believers.

Also, "Elohim" is not a family of God beings. Men are called "elohim" as well (Psalm 82:6). That is the kind of elohim Yeshua is.

Jesus created us....and the world.

Heb. 3;3 For this man (Christ Jesus) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath built the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

So then who created Moses? Jesus who is God.

 

[justbyfaith]

The true and faithful doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ will not be received by the natural man (1 Corinthians 2:13-14); you must receive the Holy Ghost if you are going to be able to even understand or believe or receive doctrine that comes from the Spirit of God.

You can receive the Holy Ghost in one of two ways:

1) Ask in faith (Luke 11:13).

2) If you are not assured that you have received Him through asking, it is best to Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off; as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39.

You can gain insight into the verses just quoted by looking at Romans 8:30: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

There is no justification or glorification apart from being called by the Lord God. And the conditional promise of the Holy Ghost (the condition being repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins) is given only to as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Therefore if you are called, you will be baptized in Jesus' name. If you are not called, you won't be. Because such a thing has been predestinated ahead of time.

And since God justifies only those whom He calls, if you are not called, you ought to question as to whether you have been justified or will be glorified.

And it all boils down to being able to receive the things of the Spirit of God (such as the doctrine of Christ's Deity).

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 says:

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[gadar perets]

Jesus created us....and the world.

All things were created by YHWH "through Yeshua", not "by Yeshua". When YHWH created, He did so alone by speaking things into existence (Isaiah 44:24; Psalm 33:6,9; and a host of others).

Heb. 3;3 For this man (Christ Jesus) was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath built the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

So then who created Moses? Jesus who is God.

Surely you jest. That passage is saying that because Yeshua built the house (referring to all the children of the Kingdom - verse 6), that he has more honor than the house (us). He has more glory than Moses, not because he created Moses, but because Moses is only a part of the house, not its builder.

Heb 3:2 Who was faithful to him that MADE (Greek) him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
Heb 3:3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. [Moses is part of the house]
Heb 3:4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God [the Father].
Heb 3:5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant [not as a builder], for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
Heb 3:6 But Messiah as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. [a refutation to OSAS].
​

 

[gadar perets]

The true and faithful doctrine of the Deity of Jesus Christ will not be received by the natural man (1 Corinthians 2:13-14); you must receive the Holy Ghost if you are going to be able to even understand or believe or receive doctrine that comes from the Spirit of God.

Easy words to say. I can say the same thing. If I were to say such a thing (which I wouldn't), here is how I would say it;

The true and faithful doctrine of the non-deity of Yeshua Messiah will not be received by the natural man (1 Corinthians 2:13-14); you must receive the Holy Spirit if you are going to be able to even understand or believe or receive doctrine that comes from the Spirit of YHWH.​

You love to exalt yourself by accusing those who disagree with you of not having the Spirit. You also like to accuse us of being lost and destined for hell. All you are doing is revealing to everyone your carnality as it overrides the Spirit within you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I grew up as a 'good' Catholic boy and teenager....I was never taught that Jesus was God, ever, (might be surprising to many) and I was naïve concerning the trinity formula...or the 'sign of the cross'..in other words it had no personal heartfelt impact on me. Now confession was taken seriously...I just knew you that all these things were a part of the Catholic mechanics and gymnastics.. Fast forward.. I gave my heart to Jesus one day just after I got married...I realized that the Catholic institution never brought me to a personal relationship with God through Jesus. After marriage in a Protestant service and another and another different one, I noticed they kept uttering a creed of trinity as the Catholics that concluded and included Jesus is God. This time being as a true believer I did take notice from the heart and mind....The spirit within me was saying to me to get out of these churches. And I did... Since that time, in studying scripture for nearly 40 years my heart is content that I did the right thing. It was the right thing to do. I have since rebutted every trinitarian verse posed to me or that I've noticed over 30 years now...and no one can really say my response was truly incorrect. It has to be in scripture and scripture is ONLY understand by the spirit the truth of Jesus.....the kicker is that you have to have the spirit in order to understand..

Bless you,

APAK

Yes, I had already received the Spirit when He gave me the rhema.

 

[Helen]

No you will not, unless you repent of your unbelief concerning the Deity of Jesus Christ. If you fail to believe that Jesus is the great I AM, you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

Hey there again...this is me dogging y.
our footsteps. :)

This comment here is much like your comment in that other thread.
Even if you added IMHO it would come across less aggressive.

The thing to remember is that ONLY God can see APAK'S heart..you cannot.
He is allowed to believe what he believes as are you.

Before his own Master he stands or falls.
What I see lacking in some of your posts is a 'real caring' for your fellow man..you snap out your harsh judgements and tell people that they will be lost. Being 'right' seems to be important to you.
You will not do very well on this Forum Site if you don't show some compassion and caring...ross
I am just trying to help you see how you 'come across' in your posts.

@APAK and I do not see always eye to eye on some things..but neither of us threatens the other with 'hell fire' for believing what we believe!! We have just agreed to differ...yet we can still be friends.

Just saying...

 

[justbyfaith]

Hey there again...this is me dogging y.
our footsteps. :)

This comment here is much like your comment in that other thread.
Even if you added IMHO it would come across less aggressive.

The thing to remember is that ONLY God can see APAK'S heart..you cannot.
He is allowed to believe what he believes as are you.

Before his own Master he stands or falls.
What I see lacking in some of your posts is a 'real caring' for your fellow man..you snap out your harsh judgements and tell people that they will be lost. Being 'right' seems to be important to you.
You will not do very well on this Forum Site if you don't show some compassion and caring...ross
I am just trying to help you see how you 'come across' in your posts.

@APAK and I do not see always eye to eye on some things..but neither of us threatens the other with 'hell fire' for believing what we believe!! We have just agreed to differ...yet we can still be friends.

Just saying...

It is not merely my opinion that failing to believe in the Deity of Jesus will result in a man dying in his sins...it is what the scripture teaches in John 8:24.

In pointing this out I do not believe that I am judging his ultimate salvation...for as long as he is alive, he will have an opportunity to place his faith in the salvational truth of Christ's Deity.

I am only saying, based on scriptural authority, that if he died tonight without repenting of his unbelief, it would be in his sins.

It is simply what the scripture teaches. And therefore I am not the One making the judgment...I am merely proclaiming what is the judgment of Him who will judge all things, based on what His word has said to me (and to all, if they would only see it with their own eyes and believe in it).

 

[gadar perets]

It is not merely my opinion that failing to believe in the Deity of Jesus will result in a man dying in his sins...it is what the scripture teaches in John 8:24.

In pointing this out I do not believe that I am judging his ultimate salvation...for as long as he is alive, he will have an opportunity to place his faith in the salvational truth of Christ's Deity.

I am only saying, based on scriptural authority, that if he died tonight without repenting of his unbelief, it would be in his sins.

It is simply what the scripture teaches. And therefore I am not the One making the judgment...I am merely proclaiming what is the judgment of Him who will judge all things, based on what His word has said to me (and to all, if they would only see it with their own eyes and believe in it).

That is your false interpretation of one verse and therefore, your judgment.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, if you see a blind man walking toward the edge of a cliff that has lava boiling over in the area below, would you consider it unloving to even tackle that blind man in order to try to convince him that that is where he is headed?

It would be the most loving thing to do to get in his face until he turns in the opposite direction!

Hey there again...this is me dogging y.
our footsteps. :)

This comment here is much like your comment in that other thread.
Even if you added IMHO it would come across less aggressive.

The thing to remember is that ONLY God can see APAK'S heart..you cannot.
He is allowed to believe what he believes as are you.

Before his own Master he stands or falls.
What I see lacking in some of your posts is a 'real caring' for your fellow man..you snap out your harsh judgements and tell people that they will be lost. Being 'right' seems to be important to you.
You will not do very well on this Forum Site if you don't show some compassion and caring...ross
I am just trying to help you see how you 'come across' in your posts.

@APAK and I do not see always eye to eye on some things..but neither of us threatens the other with 'hell fire' for believing what we believe!! We have just agreed to differ...yet we can still be friends.

Just saying...

 

[justbyfaith]

That is your false interpretation of one verse and therefore, your judgment.

It is the faithful interpretation of that verse; but of course you believe otherwise because you want to believe otherwise; because if it is true, then you are condemned where you stand. How much better to place your footing on solid ground by heeding the warning that the verse proclaims?

 

[gadar perets]

It is the faithful interpretation of that verse; but of course you believe otherwise because you want to believe otherwise; because if it is true, then you are condemned where you stand. How much better to place your footing on solid ground by heeding the warning that the verse proclaims?

I heed the warning that verse proclaims in context by believing that Yeshua is from above and not of this world (verse 23) which you conveniently ignore since it establishes the context.

I guess the blind man in John 9 is also the great I AM since, when identifying himself, he said, "I am" (ego eimi).

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That is your false interpretation of one verse and therefore, your judgment.

It's funny how you tell people that their interpretation is their judgment
But when you tell a verse, you expect us to believe it is truth
How odd for a non Christian to know any truth.
Everything you say is meaningless.

 

[APAK]

I heed the warning that verse proclaims in context by believing that Yeshua is from above and not of this world (verse 23) which you conveniently ignore since it establishes the context.

I guess the blind man in John 9 is also the great I AM since, when identifying himself, he said, "I am" (ego eimi).

gadar perets I just want to write back to JBF here because you have responded to her scripture she previously posed to me..thank you. You are spot on again...

@justbyfaith I have to agree with gadar perets, not to just side with him , he is just correct. You have taken this classically misused verse as a trinitarian to force Jesus as God Almighty because you have made an idol of the phrase 'I am.'

As gp said there are several examples in scripture where 'I am' is a common expression for ANYONE, any person. The expression is saying in strong terms, it is stating emphatically with extreme prejudice that they or he are/is the one of the subject of discussion, and no one else. Do not get confused with believing that just because YWHW used this expression twice in succession with Moses to the people when asked who shall I say you are, that it means the name of YWHW and to you therefore, Jesus is God in the John verse. YWHW said 'I will be what I will be.' It is who YWHW is in nature. This has nothing to do with the John verse you posed to me. Sorry. you are scripturally incorrect. I hope you correct your thinking on this for at least your own benefit.

Bless you and my friends in Christ, includes gadar perets of course!

APAK

 

[APAK]

@Rollo Tamasi ..

Rollo: I know we see eye-to-eye on eternal security. When someone quotes John 10:28-29 to you and they say these versed do not guarantee that your salvation is secured. And then they say because we have free will and the power to turn away for God at any time and therefore lose our security.

Tell them this: I would like to see you trying to jerk free from God’s hand with all your might and power and free-will. When Jesus says that NO ONE can snatch us out of his Father’s hand, (and because he is greater than ALL - means even a person's free-will) that means no one. It would be impossible for us to break away (if we are truly saved and are in the spirit of Christ).

I would question that person's salvation if they believed their own 'free' will is stronger that their creator's will and desire.

(Joh 10:28) And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (NEV)

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

@Rollo Tamasi ..

Rollo: I know we see eye-to-eye on eternal security. When someone quotes John 10:28-29 to you and they say these versed do not guarantee that your salvation is secured. And then they say because we have free will and the power to turn away for God at any time and therefore lose our security.

Tell them this: I would like to see you trying to jerk free from God’s hand with all your might and power and free-will. When Jesus says that NO ONE can snatch us out of his Father’s hand, (and because he is greater than ALL - means even a person's free-will) that means no one. It would be impossible for us to break away (if we are truly saved and are in the spirit of Christ).

I would question that person's salvation if they believed their own 'free' will is stronger that their creator's will and desire.

(Joh 10:28) And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (NEV)

Bless you,

APAK

Right-o brother!
Imagine telling God you don't want him anymore and you'd rather be in hell.
That's the Great Divorce, C.S. Lewis

 

[GodsGrace]

@Rollo Tamasi ..

Rollo: I know we see eye-to-eye on eternal security. When someone quotes John 10:28-29 to you and they say these versed do not guarantee that your salvation is secured. And then they say because we have free will and the power to turn away for God at any time and therefore lose our security.

Tell them this: I would like to see you trying to jerk free from God’s hand with all your might and power and free-will. When Jesus says that NO ONE can snatch us out of his Father’s hand, (and because he is greater than ALL - means even a person's free-will) that means no one. It would be impossible for us to break away (if we are truly saved and are in the spirit of Christ).

I would question that person's salvation if they believed their own 'free' will is stronger that their creator's will and desire.

(Joh 10:28) And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (NEV)

Bless you,

APAK

Could you please show me, biblically of course, WHEN we lost our free will?

 

[APAK]

Could you please show me, biblically of course, WHEN we lost our free will?

I cannot point to any scripture where we lost 'free' will. Although, I would point out that the 3 places in scripture it is quoted has 'free' will meaning 'voluntary' or humbling action on our part, and not directed explicitly as a meaning of some invincible selfish power to decide to do anything beyond God's control. That is not in scripture.

I know you have spoken on this subject many times and I believe you have to be really precise on your meaning and why somehow you think 'you have the power'...and this can be difficult to put into words.

APAK sends....greetings

 

[APAK]

gadar perets I just want to write back to JBF here because you have responded to her scripture she previously posed to me..thank you. You are spot on again...

@justbyfaith I have to agree with gadar perets, not to just side with him , he is just correct. You have taken this classically misused verse as a trinitarian to force Jesus as God Almighty because you have made an idol of the phrase 'I am.'

As gp said there are several examples in scripture where 'I am' is a common expression for ANYONE, any person. The expression is saying in strong terms, it is stating emphatically with extreme prejudice that they or he are/is the one of the subject of discussion, and no one else. Do not get confused with believing that just because YWHW used this expression twice in succession with Moses to the people when asked who shall I say you are, that it means the name of YWHW and to you therefore, Jesus is God in the John verse. YWHW said 'I will be what I will be.' It is who YWHW is in nature. This has nothing to do with the John verse you posed to me. Sorry. you are scripturally incorrect. I hope you correct your thinking on this for at least your own benefit.

Bless you and my friends in Christ, includes gadar perets of course!

APAK

I just want to correct my writing....it is YHWH and not the transposed scribble for the title of our Father I wrote in my previous post here (above)….

apologies to all....thank you

APAK

 

[gadar perets]

(Joh 10:28) And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. (NEV)

There are three key words in those verses that need consideration; snatch (Greek - harpadzo - seize) and out of (Greek - ek). The picture is of a man reaching into the Father's hand from outside of it, seizing the one in it, and snatching them out of the hand. That would be impossible. It is not a picture of the one inside choosing to want out of the Father's hand of his own free will. We are permitted to not believe if we so choose. That is why Hebrews 6:4-8 was written. The person who falls away does so of their own free will.