Eternal Security

[GodsGrace]

I cannot point to any scripture where we lost 'free' will. Although, I would point out that the 3 places in scripture it is quoted has 'free' will meaning 'voluntary' or humbling action on our part, and not directed explicitly as a meaning of some invincible selfish power to decide to do anything beyond God's control. That is not in scripture.

I know you have spoken on this subject many times and I believe you have to be really precise on your meaning and why somehow you think 'you have the power'...and this can be difficult to put into words.

APAK sends....greetings

Well Apak, there's no scripture because we never lost our free will.
As to being specific as to what it means...
You're an intelligent person, funny how you lose this all of a sudden.

Morally free.
Free with no outside pressure.

If God wanted a bunch of robots loving Him He would have made us that way.
Instead I read that He made us in His image. God has free will.

Maybe this is just one big game and God is the programmer?

 

[GodsGrace]

There are three key words in those verses that need consideration; snatch (Greek - harpadzo - seize) and out of(Greek - ek). The picture is of a man reaching into the Father's hand from outside of it, seizing the one in it, and snatching them out of the hand. That would be impossible. It is not a picture of the one inside choosing to want out of the Father's hand of his own free will. We are permitted to not believe if we so choose. That is why Hebrews 6:4-8 was written. The person who falls away does so of their own free will.

Of course this is what it means....
But some understand it, and some refuse to.
I'd love to really know why.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Of course this is what it means....
But some understand it, and some refuse to.
I'd love to really know why.

that's it, all you non-Christians cling together and say Jesus is not God.
You take the deity out of Jesus Christ and he becomes powerless.
That is the ploy of the enemy.

 

[gadar perets]

that's it, all you non-Christians cling together and say Jesus is not God.
You take the deity out of Jesus Christ and he becomes powerless.
That is the ploy of the enemy.

You are calling GodsGrace a non-Christian??

 

[APAK]

There are three key words in those verses that need consideration; snatch (Greek - harpadzo - seize) and out of (Greek - ek). The picture is of a man reaching into the Father's hand from outside of it, seizing the one in it, and snatching them out of the hand. That would be impossible. It is not a picture of the one inside choosing to want out of the Father's hand of his own free will. We are permitted to not believe if we so choose. That is why Hebrews 6:4-8 was written. The person who falls away does so of their own free will.

I admit this is arguably one of the most difficult passages of scripture to interpret clearly and precisely.

It is not about the loss of salvation.

(Heb 6:4) For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
(Heb 6:5) who tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
(Heb 6:6) but then fell away- it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Heb 6:7) For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God.
(Heb 6:8) But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is rejected and in danger of being cursed, whose end is to be burned. (NEV)

Let me just suggest why this scripture is not about one losing salvation; even by their own will.

Verse 4- the transliterated term ‘enlightened’ does not mean one who is converted. It usually means a seeker and someone that has taken a deliberate interest, in this case the seed of the gospel.

Verse 4- the expression: ‘ tasted the heavenly gift’ means again a seeker that momentarily or for a very short duration experiences true spiritual effects in their mind and touches the heart (‘partakers of the spirit’). This does not mean again conversion. They are still are not committed in faith and are ‘seen’ tasting. They do not want to drink that is considered faithful commitment for conversion.

Verse 5: the term again ‘tasted’ does not mean commitment and conversion as defined previously. The word of God is especially the word of the gospel and the glimpse into the power of the spirit(s) in their lives.

Verse 6: depicts this seeker as eventually turning away for the truth, and in context of Hebrews, back to the Law, and thus not being converted.

It is then said that these seekers or even fake professing believers if they already repented, which indicated they did already, cannot truly keep repenting again, and even again and again, and each time decide to not commit and be converted.

This non-committal and fake repentance each time, puts Christ back on the cross and shames his serious and real-life changing actions done for all mankind. Like this seeker is saying, I’m sorry for my sins (not really from the heart), please forgive me again and again. If truly converted one’s sins are forgiven once and for all time.

Verses 6 and 7 distinguishes the true convert and the false believer – their futures with be much different.

Scripture is saying, don’t live your life like a phony seeker, a fence sitter, a taster of God and his spirit, because your foolish actions that seem spiritual and holy to you will be destroyed and even cursed.

On the other hand, drinking (earth’s water/rain) being committed and converted with the spirit of Jesus that pleases God will bring blessings and life.

BL: COMMIT to the Lord Jesus as this is what God desires for all mankind - truly believe in his son. Do not go back to your 'old' ways.,,to the Law or your religion.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[justbyfaith]

I heed the warning that verse proclaims in context by believing that Yeshua is from above and not of this world (verse 23) which you conveniently ignore since it establishes the context.

I guess the blind man in John 9 is also the great I AM since, when identifying himself, he said, "I am" (ego eimi).

In John 9, the blind man is answering the question of whether he is the same person that sat and begged. He basically answered in the affirmative. In John 8:58, Jesus breaks normal grammatical usage to make a claim. The scribes and Pharisees knew what Jesus was saying (they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy...John 8:59, John 10:31-33), why don't you?

It's funny how you tell people that their interpretation is their judgment
But when you tell a verse, you expect us to believe it is truth
How odd for a non Christian to know any truth.
Everything you say is meaningless.

Whew! I thought you were @"ByGrace" talking to me for a second. It turned out it was someone who knows the truth talking to someone who doesn't.

@gadar perets I just want to write back to JBF here because you have responded to her scripture she previously posed to me..thank you. You are spot on again...

@justbyfaith I have to agree with gadar perets, not to just side with him , he is just correct. You have taken this classically misused verse as a trinitarian to force Jesus as God Almighty because you have made an idol of the phrase 'I am.'

As gp said there are several examples in scripture where 'I am' is a common expression for ANYONE, any person. The expression is saying in strong terms, it is stating emphatically with extreme prejudice that they or he are/is the one of the subject of discussion, and no one else. Do not get confused with believing that just because YWHW used this expression twice in succession with Moses to the people when asked who shall I say you are, that it means the name of YWHW and to you therefore, Jesus is God in the John verse. YWHW said 'I will be what I will be.' It is who YWHW is in nature. This has nothing to do with the John verse you posed to me. Sorry. you are scripturally incorrect. I hope you correct your thinking on this for at least your own benefit.

Bless you and my friends in Christ, includes @gadar perets of course!

APAK

First of all, @APAK, before you presuppose someone's gender, you should look at their profile. I think Proverbs 18:13 applies here to a certain extent.

Now I did not expect anything different from you but that you should agree with @gadar perets, because you are a Unitarian; and the doctrine of your religion states the false doctrine that Jesus isn't God. It would not be "to my benefit" but to my destruction for me to disregard the warning of Jesus' words in John 8:24 and deny who He truly is. The Deity of Christ is a doctrine that is essential to salvation.

You are calling GodsGrace a non-Christian??

Was she denying Christ's Deity?

 

[Stranger]

GodsGrace

You surrender the Deity of Jesus Christ to give a 'like' to a false teacher, gadr perets, because he agrees with your 'loss of salvation'?

I never did like the saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Stranger

 

[gadar perets]

We just lost power from Hurricane Florence. I will be offline until further notice. I don't want my phone to die.

 

[APAK]

Well Apak, there's no scripture because we never lost our free will.
As to being specific as to what it means...
You're an intelligent person, funny how you lose this all of a sudden.

Morally free.
Free with no outside pressure.

If God wanted a bunch of robots loving Him He would have made us that way.
Instead I read that He made us in His image. God has free will.

Maybe this is just one big game and God is the programmer?

Well GodsGrace: I need to say this to you because I see you have brought out your 'old' records to play to me again. They are not doing anything for my soul. I guess they are for yours.

You typically mix major ideas together as logical components and deduce an outcome using your type of logic. And you actually believe what you say or write.

For example, you write: We have free will. We are morally free. Free means no outside pressure. Therefore we have free moral will without no external pressure.

Then you make another logical outcome: G​

od has free will. We are made in the image of God. Therefore we have (God's) free will.
This type of surface thinking will get you into trouble every time.

If you are truly a believer you will surely know that you have influence/ pressure from the union of the spirit of Christ within you. If you do not, then you may feel you have no external pressure or influence although you are kidding yourself. Every second of every day while you are conscious you have both internal and external influences that limit your weak free will to do many things. You have NO God free will at all. This is why you might be comparing yourself with God and his ways and saying that God does not want robots etc. A carnal mind will always rely on their own will and mind and not the will of God to lead their lives.

I live in Christ's spirit as Christ lives in the Father' spirit. We are all one in this sense in spirit and purpose (well ideally, out of this corrupt nature we have today). I never consider myself a robot in love with Christ. I used my 'free' will to accept his grace and gift of salvation and he accepted me. Did he accept you in love? You see a seeker or a professing believer always hesitates in listening to these words. They do not want to 'give up' their independence and will. They think they will lose themselves and become like robots. Pride gets in their way. And to think that God created them, they still insist they are their own person, as if they created themselves...

Bless you,

APAK



​

 

[justbyfaith]

It is not that a man becomes a robot in order to become eternally secure. It is that he is transformed from being a dog or a pig into a sheep (2 Peter 2:22). As a sheep, he detests vomit and mud, which is what he previously loved because before receiving Christ, he was a dog or a pig.

If holiness be a factor in maintaining eternal security, it is maintained by this grace; that I have been transformed into a new creature in Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).

 

[justbyfaith]

We just lost power from Hurricane Florence. I will be offline until further notice. I don't want my phone to die.

I pray the Lord extends your period of grace by prolonging your life; and that Hurricane Florence doesn't take it (see Ecclesiastes 9:11, Proverbs 27:1).

 

[APAK]

In John 9, the blind man is answering the question of whether he is the same person that sat and begged. He basically answered in the affirmative. In John 8:58, Jesus breaks normal grammatical usage to make a claim. The scribes and Pharisees knew what Jesus was saying (they picked up stones to stone Him for blasphemy...John 8:59, John 10:31-33), why don't you?



Whew! I thought you were @"ByGrace" talking to me for a second. It turned out it was someone who knows the truth talking to someone who doesn't.



First of all, @APAK, before you presuppose someone's gender, you should look at their profile. I think Proverbs 18:13 applies here to a certain extent.

Now I did not expect anything different from you but that you should agree with @gadar perets, because you are a Unitarian; and the doctrine of your religion states the false doctrine that Jesus isn't God. It would not be "to my benefit" but to my destruction for me to disregard the warning of Jesus' words in John 8:24 and deny who He truly is. The Deity of Christ is a doctrine that is essential to salvation.



Was she denying Christ's Deity?

I apologize concerning my misidentification of your gender. I should have looked at you profile..It won't happen again....APAK

 

[Helen]

I apologize concerning my misidentification of your gender. I should have looked at you profile..It won't happen again....APAK

I must admit when we get user names which are similar I often forget who I am writing to!!
We have Justbyfaith and also Jesusisfaithful and another very similar name too...at my age I find it confusing. LOL

But I never get confused with APAK ...very nice and easy to remember...

 

[justbyfaith]

I apologize concerning my misidentification of your gender. I should have looked at you profile..It won't happen again....APAK

You're forgiven (by me)...of that at least. To be forgiven by God of all of your sin(s), of course you would have to receive Him as He is (John 1:12) in order to appropriate His shed blood in truth.

 

[Enoch111]

But I never get confused with APAK ...very nice and easy to remember...

Unless you read it as A-PAC (A Political Action Committee of one).:cool:

 

[GodsGrace]

I cannot point to any scripture where we lost 'free' will. Although, I would point out that the 3 places in scripture it is quoted has 'free' will meaning 'voluntary' or humbling action on our part, and not directed explicitly as a meaning of some invincible selfish power to decide to do anything beyond God's control. That is not in scripture.

I know you have spoken on this subject many times and I believe you have to be really precise on your meaning and why somehow you think 'you have the power'...and this can be difficult to put into words.

APAK sends....greetings

Of course I "have the power".
God told Adam not to eat of the tree, He didn't STOP him from eating of it.

Is your belief that God FORCED Adam to eat?
No?
Then you have to agree with me that WE DO have the power.
If we had no power, then yes, we would be like robots.

In Philemon 1:14 Paul tells him that he must of his OWN FREE WILL accept Onesimus.

Not to mention Deuteronomy, Joshua, ....

 

[GodsGrace]

that's it, all you non-Christians cling together and say Jesus is not God.
You take the deity out of Jesus Christ and he becomes powerless.
That is the ploy of the enemy.

Why are you directing this comment to ME?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well GodsGrace: I need to say this to you because I see you have brought out your 'old' records to play to me again. They are not doing anything for my soul. I guess they are for yours.

You typically mix major ideas together as logical components and deduce an outcome using your type of logic. And you actually believe what you say or write.

For example, you write: We have free will. We are morally free. Free means no outside pressure. Therefore we have free moral will without no external pressure.

Then you make another logical outcome: G​

od has free will. We are made in the image of God. Therefore we have (God's) free will.
This type of surface thinking will get you into trouble every time.

If you are truly a believer you will surely know that you have influence/ pressure from the union of the spirit of Christ within you. If you do not, then you may feel you have no external pressure or influence although you are kidding yourself. Every second of every day while you are conscious you have both internal and external influences that limit your weak free will to do many things. You have NO God free will at all. This is why you might be comparing yourself with God and his ways and saying that God does not want robots etc. A carnal mind will always rely on their own will and mind and not the will of God to lead their lives.

I live in Christ's spirit as Christ lives in the Father' spirit. We are all one in this sense in spirit and purpose (well ideally, out of this corrupt nature we have today). I never consider myself a robot in love with Christ. I used my 'free' will to accept his grace and gift of salvation and he accepted me. Did he accept you in love? You see a seeker or a professing believer always hesitates in listening to these words. They do not want to 'give up' their independence and will. They think they will lose themselves and become like robots. Pride gets in their way. And to think that God created them, they still insist they are their own person, as if they created themselves...

Bless you,

APAK



​

Were you expecting some NEW records?
There aren't any...
Your records also do nothing for my soul...so perhaps we should not write to each other anymore? I thought these forums were to exchange ideas...maybe not.

This is all I'll say for the umpteenth time...
I don't deduce MY ideas. I learned Christianity from official sources. I don't sit around all day and read the bible and come to my own conclusions. Don't feel sorry for me and tell me the Holy Spirit should be teaching me. I see by these threads that the Holy Spirit tells everyone something different.

If YOU are a true believer, you will come to understand that Jesus is God. Otherwise you maybe shouldn't be honoring Him at all and worship on the one true God.

Do you like my doubting whether or not you're a true believer?
I don't appreciate your doing this to me. We're not here to discuss my born again status.

We are each our own person, and will be judged accordingly or Jesus would never have said:

John 5:28-29
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

If we DO NOT have free will, how will Jesus be able to judge us by the good deeds we did?

If God is a just God (plenty of scripture) then we MUST have free will or no one should go to hell because they just did what God wanted them to do through no free will of their own. What kind of just God would that be?

 

[APAK]

Of course I "have the power".
God told Adam not to eat of the tree, He didn't STOP him from eating of it.

Is your belief that God FORCED Adam to eat?
No?
Then you have to agree with me that WE DO have the power.
If we had no power, then yes, we would be like robots.

In Philemon 1:14 Paul tells him that he must of his OWN FREE WILL accept Onesimus.

Not to mention Deuteronomy, Joshua, ....

GodsGrace, if you give me some time (day or two or three??), I will compile a decent scriptural commentary of say 20-30 verses or so on OSAS based of course on Grace as it says in your username. I would then ask you to just read it without trying to add in your bias along the way first, and then comment on it as you always do. Now of course if your conclusion is that this commentary is still meaningless to you because you want to keep saying 'you have the power' at the end of this discussion then I cannot contribute anymore to your queries on this subject.

Yes, we definitely have the power to serve evil or God in goodness. It is very limited and we cannot escape with our so called 'free' and powerful 'will.' either one of these. You might want to be your own god although you are not wired or are capable of it. God ensured that Adam could never reach this status after his disobedience, and neither will he let you or anyone else.

Let me know if I can do this 'full' commentary for you? At least it might be something to review again later down the road...

Thanks,

APAK

 

[GodsGrace]

GodsGrace, if you give me some time (day or two or three??), I will compile a decent scriptural commentary of say 20-30 verses or so on OSAS based of course on Grace as it says in your username. I would then ask you to just read it without trying to add in your bias along the way first, and then comment on it as you always do. Now of course if your conclusion is that this commentary is still meaningless to you because you want to keep saying 'you have the power' at the end of this discussion then I cannot contribute anymore to your queries on this subject.

Yes, we definitely have the power to serve evil or God in goodness. It is very limited and we cannot escape with our so called 'free' and powerful 'will.' either one of these. You might want to be your own god although you are not wired or are capable of it. God ensured that Adam could never reach this status after his disobedience, and neither will he let you or anyone else.

Let me know if I can do this 'full' commentary for you? At least it might be something to review again later down the road...

Thanks,

APAK

I'll reply with 20 of my own,,,but, as you've stated, I always comment on verses persons post instead of just shooting mine back at them.

I believe we have free will as stated in Deuteronomy and Joshua and Philemon and many other times in the N.T., for example when Jesus cried over Jerusalem not coming to Him, as many privately did not and many privately did.

As to OSAS, this idea came into being in the reformation period. Augustine did not believe what Calvin believed, so I hope we could put him aside. Augustine believed some were saved for good, Calvin believed some were chosen for heaven and some were, by default, chosen for hell. Or, as it's known double pre-destination.

I'd say 20-30 verses are quite a job, even for me with little time to be here,,,I come and go. Narrow it down to 10 and we'll have a go at it.

BTW, I'm open minded and have had to be to leave the catholic faith...
But after 40 years of Christianity, I have come to my conclusions and I will not, at this point, change my mind UNLESS you offer something new...which I doubt.