Eternal Security

[1stCenturyLady]

No he didn't -- we still have a sinful nature even after the cross.

The Gospel provides for forgiveness of sins, adoption and the New Nature - but we still have the old one as well which is why Paul describes it as a struggle a battle - in Romans 7 and 1 Cor 9. "I buffet my body and make it my slave".

Oh, Bob, Romans 7 is about someone under the Law, like the Jews, BEFORE Christ, when they were still slaves to SIN. Paul isn't talking about a Christian there, but rather shows the contrast between the Law and the Spirit in chapter 8, the conclusion to his teaching on the law since chapter 1. Simply put, chapters 7 and 8 are contrasts. Chapter 7 shows how the Law is the ministry of death. Chapter 8, the ministry of the Spirit. Read this contrast in context - Romans 7:7 to Romans 8:9. Law vs. Spirit, SIN vs. freedom from SIN. Being in the flesh vs. not being in the flesh.

Paul, like John, uses present first person because they are Hebrew, and use Hebrew writing styles that may be confusing to us "westerners" who are used to the Greek style of writing construction. For instance, in Romans 7:9 Paul was not living at the time Moses received the law, but refers to himself as if he was. The "I" is referring to mankind. "I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came (on Mt. Sinai), sin revived and I died.

John 8:34-36 "Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

No he didn't -- we still have a sinful nature even after the cross.

The Gospel provides for forgiveness of sins, adoption and the New Nature - but we still have the old one as well which is why Paul describes it as a struggle a battle - in Romans 7 and 1 Cor 9. "I buffet my body and make it my slave".

mankind has a sinful nature to this very day
the Bible "defines sin" as "Transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - by definition.

Your total misunderstanding of law vs. grace is why you can't see the contrasts in 1 John 3. No matter how many times it is shown to you you refuse to read past verse 4, when verse 5 gives you God's answer to verse 4. "And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin."

That is to deny the NEW Covenant which GOD says includes "The LAW of God written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-11

The Sabbath is not written on our hearts to obey specifics by the Spirit pertaining to one day a week, so it is not the Old Covenant Ten Commandments (all ten) that are written on our hearts. What is written on our hearts is to "love God with all your heart, soul, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." Do this and you will not break the royal law - James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well." BTW, the mention of specific commandments in James 2 are as examples, but here again James CONTRASTS those commandments with the law of liberty.

Do you know what the law of liberty is? Go back to John 8:34-36 again. Liberty from sin.

making stuff up again -- and mixing it with the Bible. in all ages the "wages of sin IS death"
in all ages "sin IS transgression of the LAW"
in all ages "mankind are sinners with a sinful nature"

Also, I wrote "Yes, SIN existed ever since Adam sinned, though not imputed to man until the law was given.

To which you said, Totally false.

Romans 4:15 "because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Romans 7:For apart from the law sin was dead. (it was not imputed) 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came (on Mt. Sinai), sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

You call my paraphrases of the true meaning in Scripture to be creative writing, but they are no less true.

 

[gadar perets]

I can't explain it better than my post number 1226.
It seems to me that John is referring to Jesus as the Word.
Have you read it?
I believe he does this in verse 14.

I totally agree verse 14 is referring to Yeshua. Trinitarians believe the logos/word was the Son who was then made flesh. A "he" was made a "he". I believe the logos/word was the Father's thoughts, plans, spoken words that were made flesh. An "it" was made a "he". I thought you believed the same as far as the logos being a thing, not a person.

 

[Episkopos]

"APAK, post: 440237, member: 7755"]Epi: John 10:30 and John 17:21 are classic misused verses by trinitarians to 'prove' that God is Jesus or vi se versa.

Jesus and the Father are One. This is only difficult for the small brain of a human to comprehend. One must come at the bible like a child...letting the bible speak for itself. I believe in the Father and the Son in the power of the Spirit. That's my trinity. it is irrefutable. Jesus said....My Father and I will come live in you...how? by the Spirit. Only a divine person can do that.

It is another case of cherry-picking verses, thrown together in haste as grenades that have only one purpose - destroy the truth. They usually then get the heck out of the room, as they hold their ears tight because they do not want anyone throwing a bigger grenade back at them that may pierce their minds and hearts to the truth.

Again, in context:

(Joh 10:28) And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
(Joh 10:29) My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
(Joh 10:30) I and the Father are one. (NEV)

(Joh 17:20) Neither for these only do I pray, but for those also that believe in me through their word;
(Joh 17:21) that they may all be one, even as You, Father, are in me and I in You, that they may also be one in us; that the world may believe You did send me.
(Joh 17:22) And the glory which You have given me, I have given to them, that they may be one, even as we are one.
(Joh 17:23) I in them and You in me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know You did send me and that You have loved them just as You loved me. (NEV)

Jesus, knowing that the Father's spirit was in him and working within him, requested of the Father to have believers be also in him (Jesus) as well. This of course would happen in the near future.

That is because Jesus and the Father are One. The Father is Jehovah Elyon....the Most High. And Jesus is Jehovah Nissi. We abide in Christ so that we are sheltered under the shadow of His wings. The Father is greater....but the Son is of the same essence and glory. This is a mystery which cannot be filtered through a puny human mind.



It is very naïve to say that Verse 10:30 meant that Jesus was God. He was saying that his Father and he were bonded in spirit and purpose, since his birth (the first true born believer). Jesus allowed his Father's will to work within him to the cross and beyond as scripture clearly states in MANY places. Jesus was then saying that those that 'believed' in Christ to salvation, should also be in him (Jesus) in spirit and purpose. And of course we know this is true of a true believer.

Using the crooked logic of trinitarians to its end in these verses, we then must be Jesus and Jesus is us. This is nonsense right. WE ARE NOT JESUS or VISA VERSA as JESUS IS NOT GOD ALMIGHTY!!

As 10:29 states RIGHT BEFORE verse 30," My Father (that is Jesus' Father)...IS GREATER THAN ALL.." I guess to trinitarians then Jesus is saying he is God...Quite remarkable, eh? Creative and SELF-styled thinking is what I call it...

Anyone with any basic scripture knowledge guided by the spirit should easily see that Jesus did not suddenly present himself as God. This is not was Jesus was saying concerning future believers.

Anyway, the beat goes on......


Bless you,

APAK


If Jesus is not divine then you are just a hero worshipper...or a fan...and that has absolutely no power to save you.

 

[APAK]

@Episkopos ..careful about adding new words that I never said or intended (per your last comment to me). Jesus is now immortal and has divinity because of the Father only. The Father gave him life in himself. He is elevated in glory in heaven and earth above all EXCEPT his Father. Now can you disprove this? I don't think so, beside some more creative thinking.

All the best,

APAK

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos ..careful about adding new words that I never said or intended (per your last comment to me). Jesus is now immortal and has divinity because of the Father only. The Father gave him life in himself. He is elevated in glory in heaven and earth above all EXCEPT his Father. Now can you disprove this? I don't think so, beside some more creative thinking.

All the best,

APAK

So then we agree on the outcome. In your view Jesus has been elevated to divine status...as in become a god...like the Greeks thought an Olympic athlete could...?

But Jesus created us....He has more honour than Moses just as the builder of the house has more honour than the house itself. You have to be very creative to avoid the divinity of Jesus...who did not consider equality with God to be worth more than helping His creation fulfill their destiny...a destiny purposed in His heart.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It is very naïve to say that Verse 10:30 meant that Jesus was God. He was saying that his Father and he were bonded in spirit and purpose, since his birth (the first true born believer). Jesus allowed his Father's will to work within him to the cross and beyond as scripture clearly states in MANY places. Jesus was then saying that those that 'believed' in Christ to salvation, should also be in him (Jesus) in spirit and purpose. And of course we know this is true of a true believer.

Using the crooked logic of trinitarians to its end in these verses, we then must be Jesus and Jesus is us. This is nonsense right. WE ARE NOT JESUS or VISA VERSA as JESUS IS NOT GOD ALMIGHTY!!

As 10:29 states RIGHT BEFORE verse 30," My Father (that is Jesus' Father)...IS GREATER THAN ALL.." I guess to trinitarians then Jesus is saying he is God...Quite remarkable, eh? Creative and SELF-styled thinking is what I call it...

Anyone with any basic scripture knowledge guided by the spirit should easily see that Jesus did not suddenly present himself as God. This is not was Jesus was saying concerning future believers.

Really? We agree on so many things, but do you not see that the Word became Jesus, and the Word was God? Thus Jesus is God. Simple logic.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jesus is the Trinity bodily. He is just as much God as the Father. Elohim is the plural of God.

 

[Episkopos]

Really? We agree on so many things, but do you not see that the Word became Jesus, and the Word was God? Thus Jesus is God. Simple logic.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jesus is the Trinity bodily. He is just as much God as the Father. Elohim is the plural of God.

That was Apak saying that....my writing is in the blue.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That was Apak saying that....my writing is in the blue.

Whew!

 

[Episkopos]

Whew!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

@Episkopos

Use the quote feature on this site is very convenient. Just highlight the area of someone's post you are responding to. A box will apear that says quote. click it. Now using the ghost arrows on the right side that appear after you start to scrowl down, click the down button, to the new post section and put your cursor there, and hit the "insert quote" button. (don't post yet.) Now go back up to the original post and highlight another area you want to respond to and do the same. Go back down to your post and place your cursor at the bottom, then hit "insert quote" again. Simple and less confusing.

 

[Episkopos]

Use the quote feature on this site is very convenient. Just highlight the area of someone's post you are responding to. A box will apear that says quote. click it.

OK

) Now go back up to the original post and highlight another area you want to respond to and do the same. Go back down to your post and place your cursor at the bottom, then hit "insert quote" again. Simple and less confusing.

Got it...thanks! ;)

 

[APAK]

Whew!

That was a close call.....;)

Bless you,

APAK

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That was a close call.....;)

Bless you,

APAK

I remember when I didn't know Jesus is God. I was in my 30's when it hit me like an epiphany. I even wrote in my Bible next to a verse I was reading - "Jesus is God!" Never doubted it since. Keep reading. You may receive a rhema from the Spirit also.

 

[gadar perets]

Echad....Oneness.

It is believed by many that the word "echad," translated "one," means "a united one" or a "compound unity," not singularity. The scriptures prove this belief to be false. Note Numbers 7:13-82 where "echad" is translated "one" 84 times and each time it means one as in the number one, singularity. Consider also Gen.2:1 - one rib and Dan.9:27 - one week.

Historic Judaism does not give echad the meaning of unity or plurality as is seen in the Encyclopedia Judaica, Vol. 14, p.1373: "Perhaps from earliest times, but certainly from later, the word echad (one) was understood also to mean unique. God is not only one and not many, but He is totally other than what paganism means by gods." Note also The Jewish Commentary, Soncino Edition, p.770: "He is one because there is no other Elohim than He; but He is also one, because He is wholly unlike anything else in existence. He is therefore not only one, but the Sole and Unique, Elohim."

Perhaps the most conclusive evidence that the word echad has the meaning of alone or unique comes to us from the Messiah himself in Mark 12:28-34. When asked which commandment was the most important, Yeshua responded by quoting the Shema. In response to his answer the teacher replied, "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but Him." Although Yeshua did not specifically say "there is no other but Him" the teacher understood that meaning to be implied in the word echad or one. Yeshua acknowledged that the teacher answered wisely thereby confirming the teacher's correct understanding of the meaning of the Shema.

It is true that echad was used in verses such as Genesis 2:24 and Genesis 41:25. There we see two people becoming one flesh and two dreams having one meaning. The key here is that two become one. In the Shema, we only see one individual, YHWH, proclaimed to be one! It doesn't say, "And the two YHWH's became one." In the two verses in Genesis, we don't see one becoming two. But that is what people are trying to do with the Shema. They say one means two and therefore, there must be two YHWH's.

John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

John 17:21" that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."

Does that mean they are the same being? Yeshua said something similar in John 17:22, "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

Here again, Yeshua says he and the Father are one. But he also prays that his followers will be one in the same sense that he and YHWH are one. That is a oneness of mind, purpose, and will, not a oneness of being.

 

[BobRyan]

"BobRyan, post: 440138, member: 7908"]No he didn't -- we still have a sinful nature even after the cross.

Don't confuse nature with law. If we still had a sin nature then we would not feel horrible after sinning..

Conviction of sin is supernatural -- not "natural" to the sinful nature.

John 16 - the Holy Spirit supernaturally "CONVICTS the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" -- Turns out, God the Holy Spirit is very good at what He does.

So it is true that of itself - the sinful nature feels no conviction, no desire repent at all - not even after the cross.

Romans 3

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

"SIN IS - transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Rom 4:15 "where there is no LAW neither is there transgression"

The Gospel provides for forgiveness of sins, adoption and the New Nature - but we still have the old one as well which is why Paul describes it as a struggle a battle - in Romans 7 and 1 Cor 9. "I buffet my body and make it my slave".

 

[Episkopos]

It is believed by many that the word "echad," translated "one," means "a united one" or a "compound unity," not singularity. The scriptures prove this belief to be false. Note Numbers 7:13-82 where "echad" is translated "one" 84 times and each time it means one as in the number one, singularity. Consider also Gen.2:1 - one rib and Dan.9:27 - one week.

Historic Judaism does not give echad the meaning of unity or plurality as is seen in the Encyclopedia Judaica, Vol. 14, p.1373: "Perhaps from earliest times, but certainly from later, the word echad (one) was understood also to mean unique. God is not only one and not many, but He is totally other than what paganism means by gods." Note also The Jewish Commentary, Soncino Edition, p.770: "He is one because there is no other Elohim than He; but He is also one, because He is wholly unlike anything else in existence. He is therefore not only one, but the Sole and Unique, Elohim."

Perhaps the most conclusive evidence that the word echad has the meaning of alone or unique comes to us from the Messiah himself in Mark 12:28-34. When asked which commandment was the most important, Yeshua responded by quoting the Shema. In response to his answer the teacher replied, "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but Him." Although Yeshua did not specifically say "there is no other but Him" the teacher understood that meaning to be implied in the word echad or one. Yeshua acknowledged that the teacher answered wisely thereby confirming the teacher's correct understanding of the meaning of the Shema.

It is true that echad was used in verses such as Genesis 2:24 and Genesis 41:25. There we see two people becoming one flesh and two dreams having one meaning. The key here is that two become one. In the Shema, we only see one individual, YHWH, proclaimed to be one! It doesn't say, "And the two YHWH's became one." In the two verses in Genesis, we don't see one becoming two. But that is what people are trying to do with the Shema. They say one means two and therefore, there must be two YHWH's.


Does that mean they are the same being? Yeshua said something similar in John 17:22, "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:"

Here again, Yeshua says he and the Father are one. But he also prays that his followers will be one in the same sense that he and YHWH are one. That is a oneness of mind, purpose, and will, not a oneness of being.

"They may be one...that's us ....as we are one...that's them. So then your argument contradicts itself.

 

[Episkopos]

Conviction of sin is supernatural -- not "natural" to the sinful nature.

John 16 - the Holy Spirit supernaturally "CONVICTS the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" -- Turns out, God the Holy Spirit is very good at what He does.

So it is true that of itself - the sinful nature feels no conviction, no desire repent at all - not even after the cross.

Romans 3

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,

“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

"SIN IS - transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
Rom 4:15 "where there is no LAW neither is there transgression"

The Gospel provides for forgiveness of sins, adoption and the New Nature - but we still have the old one as well which is why Paul describes it as a struggle a battle - in Romans 7 and 1 Cor 9. "I buffet my body and make it my slave".

Again you are not getting the Old man being dead. If he isn't dead we cannot be joined to Christ. A woman cannot have 2 husbands. Neither can we have 2 natures. If we divorce ourselves from Christ to take on the old nature again....we cannot come back to Christ...unless He offer Himself up again.

 

[APAK]

I remember when I didn't know Jesus is God. I was in my 30's when it hit me like an epiphany. I even wrote in my Bible next to a verse I was reading - "Jesus is God!" Never doubted it since. Keep reading. You may receive a rhema from the Spirit also.

I grew up as a 'good' Catholic boy and teenager....I was never taught that Jesus was God, ever, (might be surprising to many) and I was naïve concerning the trinity formula...or the 'sign of the cross'..in other words it had no personal heartfelt impact on me. Now confession was taken seriously...I just knew you that all these things were a part of the Catholic mechanics and gymnastics.. Fast forward.. I gave my heart to Jesus one day just after I got married...I realized that the Catholic institution never brought me to a personal relationship with God through Jesus. After marriage in a Protestant service and another and another different one, I noticed they kept uttering a creed of trinity as the Catholics that concluded and included Jesus is God. This time being as a true believer I did take notice from the heart and mind....The spirit within me was saying to me to get out of these churches. And I did... Since that time, in studying scripture for nearly 40 years my heart is content that I did the right thing. It was the right thing to do. I have since rebutted every trinitarian verse posed to me or that I've noticed over 30 years now...and no one can really say my response was truly incorrect. It has to be in scripture and scripture is ONLY understand by the spirit the truth of Jesus.....the kicker is that you have to have the spirit in order to understand..

Bless you,

APAK

 

[gadar perets]

"They may be one...that's us ....as we are one...that's them. So then your argument contradicts itself.

Of course it doesn't contradict. You say the oneness between the Father and Son is a oneness of being, but that would mean the oneness of believers is also a oneness of being. Impossible. I say the oneness of all concerned is a oneness of purpose.

 

[Episkopos]

Of course it doesn't contradict. You say the oneness between the Father and Son is a oneness of being, but that would mean the oneness of believers is also a oneness of being. Impossible. I say the oneness of all concerned is a oneness of purpose.

Then you don't understand the Body either. We are members one of another. WE are of the same essence. We are all human. From the human family of beings. The Father and the Son are divine. From the family of God beings...Elohim...plural.