Eternal Security

[amadeus]

What is it we understand from any of these verses and others without being led by the Holy Ghost? What is the written Bible to a person without the Holy Ghost leading him?

I sure hope you have not joined the gang that believes I don't have the Holy Spirit. Am I misunderstanding you?

You have me at a disadvantage as I have read few if any of your posts, so what could I know of you? My words which you cited in any case were addressed to another person @justbyfaith to be exact and as I already explained to him that they did not mean what you are saying.

As to joining "gangs" even when I was kid that wanted to they usually did not want me so I got to the point of not even trying before I really came to know the Lord.

As to you having the Holy Spirit, even if I doubted it, without good cause from God I would hope I would keep my mouth shut.

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"... a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;" Ecc 3:7

Give God the glory!

 

[gadar perets]

I think you didn't read the post that has all of the quotes in it from a different thread (post #1443, page 73); as within it I think you will find the logical reasoning as to how and why these things can all be.

I read it and found nothing logical about it. Its just a mess of twisted Scriptures as you try and support the doctrines of men. You mentioned the "incarnation" several times (a word invented by men to explain a false belief). It is bad enough to say "God became a man", but it is far worse to say the Father became flesh.

 

[gadar perets]

You have me at a disadvantage as I have read few if any of your posts, so what could I know of you?

May I ask why that is?

 

[amadeus]

May I ask why that is?

I don't read every post on every thread as I get tired and disinterested in many of the same arguments given repeatedly. I have been on Internet Christian forums for about 20 years now and everything take more time than it once did and I have less time left than when I first began. This thread by its subject is one that I often avoid as I simply have probably heard it all before on both sides. One of these days I may read some of your posts simply to find out about @gadar perets but likely that would also take time. Would it be worth it?

Give God the glory!

 

[gadar perets]

One of these days I may read some of your posts simply to find out about @gadar perets but likely that would also take time. Would it be worth it?

Only if you are a truth seeker.

 

[amadeus]

Only if you are a truth seeker.

Oh I am a truth seeker, but there too many in too many places effectively calling out:

"... Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there;... Mark 13:21

Are you saying you are not one of those in spite of the end of the verse?

"...believe him not:"

You think maybe you have something that I have not already received? Hey, I am not mocking you. I have received a lot, but I also that God will never run short of more to give.

 

[justbyfaith]

I read it and found nothing logical about it. Its just a mess of twisted Scriptures as you try and support the doctrines of men. You mentioned the "incarnation" several times (a word invented by men to explain a false belief). It is bad enough to say "God became a man", but it is far worse to say the Father became flesh.

Then to you I say what Paul said to certain other "Jews' in Acts 28:25-28 (if you will even read it).

Arevoire.

 

[gadar perets]

Oh I am a truth seeker, but there too many in too many places effectively calling out:

"... Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there;... Mark 13:21

Are you saying you are not one of those in spite of the end of the verse?

"...believe him not:"

No, I am not one of those.

You think maybe you have something that I have not already received? Hey, I am not mocking you. I have received a lot, but I also that God will never run short of more to give.

Yes, the Almighty continually shines the light of truth for us. We cannot sit back thinking we have all truth and ignore what He is trying to teach us. The Comforter was given to lead us into all truth, but that won't happen if we won't receive it. I guess you will never know if He is using me to enlighten you unless you read my posts.

 

[APAK]

Amen.

JBF:
I guess I need to unravel your explanation of your initial verse of John 8:24 by first following your trail you started in John 8:58. I will go even further and minimally explain John 8:42-43 and 53, 56-59. This with provide us with the context that is required.

Jesus was explaining to the Pharisees that they were not even doing the work of Abraham as their Father. Jesus said he was doing his work for his Father, God Almighty (verse 42). He said if your Father was God then you would love me? Jesus was saying their Father was not God of course.

Jesus explained he was born from God to his work, and Jesus was not born to do his own work (verse 42). Jesus knew they did not understand him because they were not ‘in God.’ and thus did not understand his words or thoughts in spirit (verse 43).

The Pharisees continues in asking him out of ignorance, who are you? Are you greater than Abraham (verse 53)?

They did not understand that Jesus was born of God as his only son. They only knew of the ancient Fathers and the prophets that spoke words and performed actions from/ by God. They did not see Jesus as possessing the thoughts and actions of God within him; Jesus was ‘in his Father.’ Abraham and others of God were externally led by God and heard his will. They never possessed his spirit within, as Jesus. They were never ‘in God.’

Jesus even offended the Pharisees as he implicitly accused them of not even knowing their own Father Abraham, because he said that Abraham knew of him and his future role in the plan of salvation (the work of his Father) (verse 56).

Finally, in verse 58, Jesus made his greatest offense and said he was ‘greater that Abraham’ or ‘before Abraham’ in the KJV translation. He could not lie to them. Seeing the Pharisees were spiritually ‘dead’ as it were, they picked to stones to kill him (verse 59). Jesus insulted and made the Pharisees look stupid especially if bystanders were listening in the temple. Jesus was lecturing them that they do not know God and really did not know Abraham, their Father. They were hypocrites.

Of course, Jesus was saying he was the born the son of God greater than any other man born. This was a radical thought to any one back then.

(Joh 8:42) Jesus said to them: If God were your Father, you would love me. For I came forth and am come from God. For neither have I come of myself, but He sent me.
(Joh 8:43) Why do you not understand my speech? Because you cannot hear my word!
(Joh 8:53) Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died, and the prophets who died? Whom do you make yourself?
(Joh 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and rejoiced.
(Joh 8:57) The Jews replied to him: You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
(Joh 8:58) Jesus said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you: I am of higher status than Abraham ever was.
(Joh 8:59) Therefore they took up stones to cast at him; but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (NEV)

Nowhere in this context and passage of scripture is Jesus claiming to be God Almighty let alone in verse 58, as you suggest.

Agreed?!

I’ll stop at this point because if we cannot agree on this section of scripture JBF, then it is futile to go any further. Agreed?

If you agree me by your response, I will go further on....thank you

Bless you,


APAK

 

[amadeus]

No, I am not one of those.

glad to hear that. I am reminded of a friend of mine who regularly visited various church groups in our little city. He went to one on a Wedneday night and it was a little slow. One of the members told to be sure to come back on Sunday because the Spirit was always moving strongly on Sunday in their assembly. His reaction was similar to my own. He never went back and I never went the first time. Perhaps you can understand why.

Yes, the Almighty continually shines the light of truth for us. We cannot sit back thinking we have all truth and ignore what He is trying to teach us. The Comforter was given to lead us into all truth, but that won't happen if we won't receive it. I guess you will never know if He is using me to enlighten you unless you read my posts.

As a matter of fact I still have not delved into the early parts of this thread, but I did read a couple of things from you on an active Trinity thread. I was impressed with what you wrote. I will probably find time to read a little more of what you write and go from there. Unfortunate there are so many who write a lot and say nothing to me. I want to grow in God even though I know that seldom in my old age will my old brain work like it once did.

While I have said that I also know the real growth in me has not occur because I was a great Bible student, but because sometime I simply empty myself of my own notions, of my own beliefs, of my own essentials of my own conclusions and simply listened to God. Something substantial all of the time as a result? No, but still over the years I have changed my position or had it changed with regard to God and things of God.

Early on I was by default a Trinitarian. I say by default because I was a Catholic and the only believer in my home. I learned to love God but I mouthed my belief in the Trinity because that was what Catholics taught and I would guess believed if they believed anything. I knew nothing about anything else. My mother , with whom I lived, in California was an non-practicing Catholic. My father in Oklahoma, 1500 miles away was a practicing Pentecostal of a Trinitarian variety. But God had something else in mind for me.

 

[justbyfaith]

JBF:
I guess I need to unravel your explanation of your initial verse of John 8:24 by first following your trail you started in John 8:58. I will go even further and minimally explain John 8:42-43 and 53, 56-59. This with provide us with the context that is required.

Jesus was explaining to the Pharisees that they were not even doing the work of Abraham as their Father. Jesus said he was doing his work for his Father, God Almighty (verse 42). He said if your Father was God then you would love me? Jesus was saying their Father was not God of course.

Jesus explained he was born from God to his work, and Jesus was not born to do his own work (verse 42). Jesus knew they did not understand him because they were not ‘in God.’ and thus did not understand his words or thoughts in spirit (verse 43).

The Pharisees continues in asking him out of ignorance, who are you? Are you greater than Abraham (verse 53)?

They did not understand that Jesus was born of God as his only son. They only knew of the ancient Fathers and the prophets that spoke words and performed actions from/ by God. They did not see Jesus as possessing the thoughts and actions of God within him; Jesus was ‘in his Father.’ Abraham and others of God were externally led by God and heard his will. They never possessed his spirit within, as Jesus. They were never ‘in God.’

Jesus even offended the Pharisees as he implicitly accused them of not even knowing their own Father Abraham, because he said that Abraham knew of him and his future role in the plan of salvation (the work of his Father) (verse 56).

Finally, in verse 58, Jesus made his greatest offense and said he was ‘greater that Abraham’ or ‘before Abraham’ in the KJV translation. He could not lie to them. Seeing the Pharisees were spiritually ‘dead’ as it were, they picked to stones to kill him (verse 59). Jesus insulted and made the Pharisees look stupid especially if bystanders were listening in the temple. Jesus was lecturing them that they do not know God and really did not know Abraham, their Father. They were hypocrites.

Of course, Jesus was saying he was the born the son of God greater than any other man born. This was a radical thought to any one back then.

(Joh 8:42) Jesus said to them: If God were your Father, you would love me. For I came forth and am come from God. For neither have I come of myself, but He sent me.
(Joh 8:43) Why do you not understand my speech? Because you cannot hear my word!
(Joh 8:53) Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died, and the prophets who died? Whom do you make yourself?
(Joh 8:56) Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it, and rejoiced.
(Joh 8:57) The Jews replied to him: You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?
(Joh 8:58) Jesus said to them: Truly, truly, I say to you: I am of higher status than Abraham ever was.
(Joh 8:59) Therefore they took up stones to cast at him; but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple. (NEV)

Nowhere in this context and passage of scripture is Jesus claiming to be God Almighty let alone in verse 58, as you suggest.

Agreed?!

I’ll stop at this point because if we cannot agree on this section of scripture JBF, then it is futile to go any further. Agreed?

If you agree me by your response, I will go further on....thank you

Bless you,


APAK

No; I do not agree with you because you appear to be using a corrupt translation of the Bible.

If you look at it in the kjv, I think you will see my pov loud and clear.

 

[justbyfaith]

The gift of praying in tongues is the only solid proof that anyone has the Holy Ghost. It is the only spiritual gift that is supernaturally a sign to unbelievers.

Miracles and healing, one might have; and Jesus might say, I never knew you (as these might be false gifts).

But if you have tongues you can keep yourselves in the love of God.

This is the refreshing.

 

[APAK]

No; I do not agree with you because you appear to be using a corrupt translation of the Bible.

if you look at it in the kjv, I think you will see my pov loud and clear.

Really, are kidding me!!!

I take it you are running away from the truth then. You know well and good that the I can use the KJV or any other version to make my point.

I'm sorry you lack courage to face the truth.

Wells since you cannot walk the walk I will end your misery for you by completing the answer to John 8:24. I will quote the KJV since you are afraid of using any other version that maybe or is corrupt in your eyes. How pathetic indeed.

Again, we need to get the context and look at verses before and after the verse under study.

(Joh 8:14) Jesus answered and said to them: Even if I testify of myself, my witness is true. For I know from where I came and where I go; but you do not know where I come from, nor where I go to.
(Joh 8:14) Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. (KJV)


The Pharisees did not know that God was born of God and he will return to God, where he is in heaven.

(Joh 8:15) You judge after the flesh. I judge no one.
(Joh 8:15) Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. (KJV)

Jesus was saying the Pharisees judged Jesus by his physical appearance of a man, like them. He was not just a mere man as them. First, he was born of God with power, and secondly God’s spirit was living within him.

(Joh 8:16) Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and He who sent me
(Joh 8:16) And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. (KJV)

Again, Jesus and his Father were bonded together in spirit.

(Joh 8:18) I am he that testifies of myself; and the Father that sent me testifies of me.
(Joh 8:18) I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. (KJV)

Again, Jesus and his Father were bonded together in spirit.

(Joh 8:19) They replied to him: Where is your Father? Jesus answered: You know neither me, nor my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.

(Joh 8:19) Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also. (KJV)

They did not know that the Father’s spirit was within Jesus. They would know Jesus if they also had the Father within them, which was impossible.

(Joh 8:21) He replied again to them: I go away, and you shall seek me, and shall die in your sins. Where I go, you cannot come.
(Joh 8:21) Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. (KJV)

A little cryptic although it means the following:

Jesus told them he was going to disappear and later they will try to find him on earth, because they or some will realize he was the true Messiah. It will be too late though for them to be saved because they continued to not know him and his Father and their plan of salvation in Jesus, the Christ. They failed to believe in the Messiah, to be saved. Jesus was implicitly saying you cannot be with me in heaven to receive me again. I gave you a chance to know me on earth and you blew it – you will die in your sins.

(Joh 8:23) And he said to them: You are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.
(Joh 8:23) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. (KJV)

Jesus said that the Pharisees are born of the earth (Adam’s spirit), he was born of heaven (God’s spirit). They were thus of this world as Jesus was of heaven.

(Joh 8:24) I replied to you, that you shall die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins.
(Joh 8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (KJV)

Again, Jesus repeated their fate. Unless they believed Jesus was the son of God and the Christ they would die in their sins.

Note: many misguided folks try to force a trinitarian platform in this verse by saying that the term ‘I am (he)’ is exclusively God’s title and only applied to him, as he used this term twice consecutively in Exodus with Moses. Therefore, Jesus is God. This is a complete twist of biblical truth and thus a dangerous lie. The term I am (he) is a common term used for anyone. It is used in scripture several times not related to Jesus or his Father. The term means to convey in the strongest terms that the subject of discussion or person under study is in fact that person and no one else. In this case Jesus Christ the son of the living God.

(Joh 8:28) Jesus continued: When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
(Joh 8:28) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. (KJV)

Related directly to verses 21 and 24: Jesus said when you have crucified me they you will realize that I was the son of God the Messiah. And that he never did anything in his own authority or own will. He only did and spoke what he was taught by his Father. In other words, Jesus never had the power within himself, it came from the Father.


(Joh 8:29) And He that sent me is with me. He has not left me alone. For I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.
(Joh 8:29) And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (KJV)

Jesus further expands on the fact that his Father’s spirit was within him (they were bonded in spirit) and Jesus always does the will of him, not his own will.

Are there any other fables you want me to straight out for you - they will be loud and clear as usual -and in a style that is easy reading

The truth needs no defense/defence JBF!

Pray for courage JBF


Bless you,

APAK

 

[Enoch111]

(Joh 8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. (KJV)

Please note that "he" is in italics because it was inserted there (mistakenly in my opinion) by the KJV translators. Here is how the Greek text reads: εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν

Here is how the literal interlinear text reads: I said therefore to you, that you will die in the sins of you; if for not you believe that I AM, you will die in the sins of you.

Although almost every other English translator has added the "he" in that verse without italics, that is an INTERPOLATION. Only the International Standard Version has translated this verse correctly:

International Standard Version
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you'll die in your sins."

The meaning is quite clear in view of all other Scriptures pertaining to the deity of Christ. Every Jew knew their Torah, and in Exodus 3, the Almighty God -- the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- identified Himself as "I AM THAT I AM" or "I AM'. Now in John 8:24 (as well as other Scriptures) Jesus identified Himself as "I AM" and said to His hearers that they would die in their sins except their believed that He is God. That still applies to every person who read or hears the Gospel. If Jesus is not God, He can be neither Savior nor Lord.

 

[APAK]

Please note that "he" is in italics because it was inserted there (mistakenly in my opinion) by the KJV translators. Here is how the Greek text reads: εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν

Here is how the literal interlinear text reads: I said therefore to you, that you will die in the sins of you; if for not you believe that I AM, you will die in the sins of you.

Although almost every other English translator has added the "he" in that verse without italics, that is an INTERPOLATION. Only the International Standard Version has translated this verse correctly:

International Standard Version
That is why I told you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I AM, you'll die in your sins."

The meaning is quite clear in view of all other Scriptures pertaining to the deity of Christ. Every Jew knew their Torah, and in Exodus 3, the Almighty God -- the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- identified Himself as "I AM THAT I AM" or "I AM'. Now in John 8:24 (as well as other Scriptures) Jesus identified Himself as "I AM" and said to His hearers that they would die in their sins except their believed that He is God. That still applies to every person who read or hears the Gospel. If Jesus is not God, He can be neither Savior nor Lord.

No, I believe the KJV of 'I am he' is also correct and I stand firmly with the understanding of scriptures as I have written on this subject in context and not out of context, and not with added creative interpretations from completely different scripture. Like trying to force a puzzle piece into a position not intended. I have no 'dog' in these fight, as they say' like most folks do. My agenda is not to promote a religion or a type of belief, just the naked truth. I write it like I see with years of doing this,,,,of course learning away as you...

Thanks anyway..hitting the sack...blessings to you and great days ahead

APAK

 

[gadar perets]

Really, are kidding me!!!

I agree with jbf that the translation you gave of John 8:58 was not what the Greek says or means, but a bias paraphrase. The KJV doesn't cut it either.

(Joh 8:23) And he said to them: You are from beneath. I am from above. You are of this world. I am not of this world.
(Joh 8:23) And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. (KJV)

Jesus said that the Pharisees are born of the earth (Adam’s spirit), he was born of heaven (God’s spirit). They were thus of this world as Jesus was of heaven.

(Joh 8:24) I replied to you, that you shall die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am he, you shall die in your sins.
(Joh 8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (KJV)

Again, Jesus repeated their fate. Unless they believed Jesus was the son of God and the Christ they would die in their sins.

I believe Yeshua meant that if the Jews did not believe that he "was from above" and "not of this world", they would die in their sins. By extension, that could mean that he was the Son of God and the Messiah, but the text doesn't actually say that.

Note: many misguided folks try to force a trinitarian platform in this verse by saying that the term ‘I am (he)’ is exclusively God’s title and only applied to him, as he used this term twice consecutively in Exodus with Moses. Therefore, Jesus is God. This is a complete twist of biblical truth and thus a dangerous lie. The term I am (he) is a common term used for anyone. It is used in scripture several times not related to Jesus or his Father. The term means to convey in the strongest terms that the subject of discussion or person under study is in fact that person and no one else. In this case Jesus Christ the son of the living God.

VERY TRUE. I have already proven in past posts that the "I AM" is declared to be "YHWH" and the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Psalms 2:7 tells us "YHWH" is Yeshua's Father and Acts 3:13 tells us Yeshua is the SON of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

(Joh 8:28) Jesus continued: When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
(Joh 8:28) Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. (KJV)

(Joh 8:29) And He that sent me is with me. He has not left me alone. For I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.
(Joh 8:29) And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (KJV)

According to the trinitarian pov of verse 28, the Jews were supposed to know that Jesus was the great "I AM" as he hung on the tree. Did they? It certainly is not recorded anywhere that they came to believe that. However, there were those in attendance that realized that Yeshua was the "Son of God" as he hung on the tree (Matthew 27:54). Had they come to the realization that Yeshua was truly the I AM, then according to John 8:24, they were NOT supposed to die in their sins. Yet, we are not told that any came to believe at that time.

Additionally, who sent Yeshua (verse 29)? His Father (YHWH). Who is the I AM? Yeshua's FAther YHWH. The I AM was "with" Yeshua. Yeshua always did those things that pleased the great I AM.

 

[justbyfaith]

I have said my piece, and expect this thread to be overrun by the Arians shortly.

 

[bbyrd009]

Why?
Do you think I'm lying?

i do now?

 

[justbyfaith]

Really, are kidding me!!!

I take it you are running away from the truth then. You know well and good that the I can use the KJV or any other version to make my point.

I'm sorry you lack courage to face the truth.

No, I am not running away from any truth.

However I believe that those who go to other versions than the kjv do so primarily because of itching ears (see 2 Timothy 4:1-5).

In John 8:58 in the kjv, the truth is clear that Jesus is breaking normal grammatical usage in order to claim that He is the great I AM.

Unfortunately, the version that you were looking at avoids this clear proclamation of truth as it is biased against the Deity of Jesus Christ.

I feel it is those who avoid the kjv who are "lacking courage to face the truth," and "running from the truth".

 

[gadar perets]

I have said my piece, and expect this thread to be overrun by the Arians shortly.

FYI - I am not an Arian. He was just as deceived as you in believing the Son preexisted as a divine living being. You are actually more of an Arian than I am LOL.