Eternal Security

[gadar perets]

Here, read this.
It's in the forum rules.
We believe that Christian issues are able to be separated into two descriptions: *open-handed issues* and *close-handed issues*. Close-handed issues (or closed issues) are issues that are central to being a Christian; these issues are simply not up for debate because they are what defines Christianity. If closed-handed issues are debatable, then Christianity is simply yet another religion and nothing more. We will define those below in regards to the community, but this includes doctrines like the divinity of Christ.

Please provide a link to those rules. I tried the link at the bottom of this page (Terms and Rules), but I don't see what you wrote.

 

[justbyfaith]

Both of those verses make it perfectly clear that Yeshua is talking a different "Lord", to his FATHER who is YHWH (Psalm 2:7).

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5).

When Paul said, "one Lord", it is to be understood that the "one God" he mentioned in verse 6 was excluded in verse 5 because he intended to mention Him in verse 6.

No; the one Lord is the one God, as evidenced by the kjv's rendering of Mark 12:29 and Acts of the Apostles 4:24.

What do you do with Luke 2:22? "And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;" Yeshua is being presented to "the Lord" to fulfill Exodus 13:2. Was Yeshua being presented to himself or to a different "Lord"?

I have an answer to this that I posted elsewhere. I will go and retrieve it for you and post it below. I believe that it answers this question adequately.

You asked me to expound on John 1:1. I did so in such a way that you are dumbfounded and cannot reply against the truth. So you resort to falsely accusing me. You do the work of Satan in falsely accusing the brethren. May YHWH have mercy on you.

Except that, because you deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, you are not one of the brethren (John 8:24).

 

[justbyfaith]

The question that I want to ask is, Did God eternally beget the Son by creating some kind of an eternal mirror, so that the Person on the other side of the mirror was also eternally existent, and then became flesh and then died for us? (see Isaiah 45:5-6, Isaiah 45:18, and Isaiah 45:21-22).

Or, Did the (eternally existent) Father become flesh (thus moving from eternity into time) thus becoming and begetting the Son?

Why would God need to eternally beget the Son by creating an eternal mirror when it is clear from scripture that the Son's existence in human form began when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the womb of Mary's virginity? That He was begotten as a union between the Holy Spirit and Mary's egg, thus forming the hypostatic union?

It seems to me that Jesus being the Son of God is synonymous in scripture with the Father becoming incarnated in human flesh.

It seems to me also that an eternal mirror is not necessary, for the Son to be a distinct Person who is the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6) as the Father; thus being the same Person as the Father (and yet distinct from the Father, who dwells in eternity) with an added nature of humanity!

Because God the Father didn't vacate eternity (as that would have been impossible) when he became incarnated as the Son (see also Ephesians 3:11), whose name means YHWH is salvation.

The Greek word for 'and' there is 'kai' and it can be translated 'even'.


Thus, a more accurate translation of 1 Corinthians 8:6 might read, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him: even one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I believe that this is more accurate because the Father is also the one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21); and Jesus is also the one God (Hebrews 1:8-9; John 8:58-59, John 10:31-33, Exodus 3:14).

Also, Mark 12:29 says in the kjv:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.

I believe that John 1:1 has as a parallel passage Ephesians 4:10.

God descended to become a Man, out of eternity into time, then ascended back out of time into eternity, to fill all things (and also transcended created time once again).

The pre-incarnate Christ (the Father) exists outside of time. The incarnate Christ (the Son) is a finite human being (while also being fully the Lord God; the Father incarnate...Isaiah 9:6) and bound to time. The after-incarnate Christ (the Holy Ghost) ascended to again be outside of time (Ephesians 4:10, Luke 23:46; see also 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7) and therefore exists as a distinct individual dwelling in eternity, outside of time. But the same Person as the Father (the eternal Spirit, John 4:23-24), yet distinct from the pre-incarnate Christ. The Holy Ghost also descends as often as He wills to come and dwell in believers; and He is the Person of the Trinity who does dwell in believers (2 Timothy 1:14). Yet, because He is in a sense the same Person as the Father and the Son (while also being distinct from the other Two), it can be said that the Father (Ephesians 4:6) and the Son (Colossians 1:27) also dwell in every believer. Yet the Bible teaches that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) and that God (the Father) is that Spirit (John 4:23-24). There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6) and God (the Father) is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21; Acts of the Apostles 4:24, Mark 12:29 (kjv)). Yet no one can say that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3, Acts of the Apostles 4:10-12).

Thus, in John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now the Word that was with God, in this scenario, would be the Father (for He was God); and the Word that was God (who was also with God); would be the Holy Ghost. The pre-incarnate Father is the One who became flesh. The Holy Ghost (the after-incarnate Father) did not have to become flesh because He had already been flesh.

Now when the pre-incarnate Father descends to become a Man, He is given the title Holy Ghost so that we may know that it is speaking of the same Person (in Luke 1:35). But truly it is the pre-incarnate Father who descends.

Now some may think that I am denying the Trinity in all of these statements. But I don't think that I am. I am attempting to refute Tritheism; which some people mistake the idea of the Trinity to actually mean.

And I am not promoting the concept of modalism either. Because while the Spirit inside of the human Jesus is the same Person as the Father (John 14:7-11), the human Jesus is not the Father in that the pre-incarnate Father's existence is outside of time: He inhabits eternity with him who is of a contrite and humble spirit (Isaiah 57:15). He is transcendent, Omnipresent, and in all and through all. The Father in the Son, on the other hand (being the same Person/God as the eternal Spirit, who is the Father, John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:4) inhabits the human body of Jesus Christ: He is a finite human being in His humanity (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7)...and therefore the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, in my view, are distinct from each other, who each contain a consciousness of their own.

We must remember that God is one Spirit (John 4:23-24, Ephesians 4:4).

And Jesus, being God, is that Spirit (John 4:24) although He inhabits the human body of the Son, which is made of flesh (again, 1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

All of this is to defend the common definition of the word "One" in Deuteronomy 6:4; while the idea of a compound unity is not completely denied by the statements above.

Finally, I want to make note of the fact of what it says in Ephesians 3:11. If you think on what this verse might mean in light of what I have spoken, you can gain insight into what I am saying.

Love in Christ,

justbyfaith

In this view, it may be that God descended in order that He Himself might become the perfect High Priest (Hebrews 2:10); because no one else could ever be able to fully and completely, faithfully and perfectly, fulfill that position.

Both you and @brakelite have given excellent explanations of the trinity or Godhead.

There is one paragraph I either don't agree with or which I do not understand.
Probably the later.

This is what you posted, which I've highlighted above in blue:

Now the Word that was with God, in this scenario, would be the Father (for He was God); and the Word that was God (who was also with God); would be the Holy Ghost. The pre-incarnate Father is the One who became flesh. The Holy Ghost (the after-incarnate Father) did not have to become flesh because He had already been flesh.

I'd have to say that the WORD IN the Father is Jesus, the Son or the 2nd person of the Trinity.

The Holy Spirit is the BREATH of God,,,as in Genesis 1.

Jesus is the WORD by virtue of John 1-14 and by His having created everything THROUGH the Word of God. Jesus became God's Word in the flesh.

The Holy Spirit is the breath of God, by the virtue of His having breathed life into Adam. Also, the Holy Spirit gives us life by dwelling with us.

Comment?

My statement was based in the concept that the Father descended to become the Son (Isaiah 9:6). Therefore, the Word, that "later" (for lack of better terminology) became flesh (the Son) was the Father in His pre-incarnate form. The Word definitely is Jesus. I'm not disputing that one iota.

 

[justbyfaith]

@APAK, after skimming over what was in your commentary, I can't say I have any disagreements...although I did not look at it extensively but only briefly skimmed over the content.

I would say this however...in 2 Corinthians 13:5 it is written, Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith: prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I think that you should consider that because you deny an essential of the Christian faith (the Deity of Jesus Christ); that when you subject yourself to the scrutiny of this scripture, you are not in the faith of Jesus Christ: for the Bible teaches that you will die in your sins if you persist in unbelief concerning this essential doctrine of the true faith of Christianity.

So then, the promises on eternal security do not apply to you if you are not in the faith of Christianity.

I would point out also that in John 10:27-30, the promise, in context, is for Jesus' sheep, whom He knows.

Therefore if someone is a worker of iniquity, the promises in that passage do not apply to him either, because Jesus never knew him (Matthew 7:23; see also Matthew 13:41-42).

 

[bbyrd009]

um, the irony of a thread titled 'eternal security' wherein everyone is condemned by everyone else lol
and prolly all OSAS to boot i guess?

 

[justbyfaith]

um, the irony of a thread titled 'eternal security' wherein everyone is condemned by everyone else lol

It might have better been rendered, Eternal Security of those who have genuine, bona fide, living and saving faith!

Also, I know that I haven't condemned a soul; but have merely warned of the condemnation that will come to certain people if they die without a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

As long as they are alive they have an opportunity to turn back the condemnation that the Bible says is already on them (John 3:18-19).

 

[gadar perets]

There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5).

So then you are indeed saying that Yeshua was praying to himself in Matthew 11:25 & Luke 10:21. That leads to other ridiculous problems like him talking to himself and sitting beside himself in Psalm 110:1; him sending himself in John 3:16, but tricking us into believing he was sending his Son; him not knowing the hour of his coming when he really did know it; him begetting himself; him being offered/presented to himself in Luke 2:22; him crying out to himself on the cross in Matthew 27:46; him turning the Kingdom over to himself and then subjecting himself to himself in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28; him worshiping himself as his own God in Revelation 3:12; him taking the scroll out of his own hand in Revelation 5:7; etc. Wake up out of your spiritual sleep young man.

No; the one Lord is the one God, as evidenced by the kjv's rendering of Mark 12:29 and Acts of the Apostles 4:24.

What do you do with Acts 4:26 which quotes Psalms 2:2?

"The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Messiah.​

Is the "Lord" here also "His" own Messiah? Can't you see that the "Lord" of Acts 4:26 is the YHWH of Psalms 2:2 and that Yeshua himself declares that YHWH is his Father in Psalms 2:7?

Except that, because you deny the Deity of Jesus Christ, you are not one of the brethren (John 8:24).

Foolish self-exaltation and ignorance of Scripture. You are no different than the deceived Jews who shut up the Kingdom of Heaven to men. Thankfully you have no control over who enters the Kingdom and cannot judge my standing with Yeshua (Romans 14:4) even though you love doing so.

 

[amadeus]

um, the irony of a thread titled 'eternal security' wherein everyone is condemned by everyone else lol
and prolly all OSAS to boot i guess?

Perhaps then my friend only you and I are left to enjoy the... Oh, but lest I forget, maybe we two also want to condemn each other so that we may join the rest in whatever punishment is due us?

 

[bbyrd009]

Also, I know that I haven't condemned a soul

you are not one of the brethren

um

 

[bbyrd009]

Perhaps then my friend only you and I are left to enjoy the... Oh, but lest I forget, maybe we two also want to condemn each other so that we may join the rest in whatever punishment is due us?

the diff in the way we debate v the way a Jew does it is striking imo, they are both logic-based but Jews have an accepted Scriptural convention that we do not recognize, in that they do not take themselves as seriously, would never say that what they are saying is an Absolute Truth, even if they secretly think it. Two Eastern seekers debating is a whole diff thing in my experience, wherein this secretly thinking it thing even seems absent. How we might even get as far as the first one i don't know though

 

[amadeus]

the diff in the way we debate v the way a Jew does it is striking imo, they are both logic-based but Jews have an accepted Scriptural convention that we do not recognize, in that they do not take themselves as seriously, would never say that what they are saying is an Absolute Truth, even if they secretly think it. Two Eastern seekers debating is a whole diff thing in my experience, wherein this secretly thinking it thing even seems absent. How we might even get as far as the first one i don't know though

So then should we consider the question as to who our brother is? Surely we are to love those who are our brothers. Are we also to love those who are not? Can those who strongly disagree with us be our brothers according to God?

Absolute Truth if a person really had it would be a good thing, but who other than God really does? Unfortunately, some while they might deny that they really have it will still act often as if they do and condemn others either directly or indirectly who do not aggre with them. Help us Lord.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Please provide a link to those rules. I tried the link at the bottom of this page (Terms and Rules), but I don't see what you wrote.

Why?
Do you think I'm lying?

 

[APAK]

A little about faith as a true believer in Christ…might make a few snap their heads, about face..

By definition, a believer has faith under grace as a new spiritual creature. It is a believer’s bonding energy or agent that binds us to the image of Jesus’ spirit, as given as a part of God’s spirit. It keep us 'saved' until we have our own immortal spirit 'like' Christ's...

Now when we became a believer, new spiritual air from God called faith was ‘breathed’ or placed into our heart. It gives us this new life and keep us alive in Christ. It is our spiritual air and lifeline to salvation. God provided and keeps us supplied with this faith as a gift. It is impossible to ‘lose’ this spiritual air completely, called faith, once God has given it to a believer. He will NEVER take it back.

Now some or more will say, scripture says that a believer can lose faith. Yes, a believer lose faith in this corrupt nature and our natural will we decide to limit this faith or bonding with Christ’s spirit. We cannot lose this faith completely however. We limit or lose some faith at times by not walking in Christ, falling out of fellowship, become a devil, etc. The kicker is that we cannot, and I say CANNOT extinguish this faith as in committing spiritual suicide by cutting off our entire life or bonding supply. A believer cannot do it if we are truly a believer In Christ. God is in control of this faith supply. In fact, he gives to each believer a measure of it. We cannot therefore 'lose' our salvation once we have it.

Now in contrast, as far as our physical body is concerned, which we have control over using our natural will, we can become deranged and commit suicide by cutting of the air supply by purposely drowning or suffocating/ asphyxiation. This we can do and many unfortunately lose their lives this way today.

I can supply scripture to this post if requested.


Bless all that are in Christ already, or those that seek God's face through Christ's work and representation of true life for all.



APAK

 

[gadar perets]

Why?
Do you think I'm lying?

Examine your heart Rollo before this upcoming Day of Atonement. I want to know all the rules of the forum and the link below hardly provides any.

 

[Episkopos]

A little about faith as a true believer in Christ…might make a few snap their heads, about face..

By definition, a believer has faith under grace as a new spiritual creature. It is a believer’s bonding energy or agent that binds us to the image of Jesus’ spirit, as given as a part of God’s spirit. It keep us 'saved' until we have our own immortal spirit 'like' Christ's...

Now when we became a believer, new spiritual air from God called faith was ‘breathed’ or placed into our heart. It gives us this new life and keep us alive in Christ. It is our spiritual air and lifeline to salvation. God provided and keeps us supplied with this faith as a gift. It is impossible to ‘lose’ this spiritual air completely, called faith, once God has given it to a believer. He will NEVER take it back.

Now some or more will say, scripture says that a believer can lose faith. Yes, a believer lose faith in this corrupt nature and our natural will we decide to limit this faith or bonding with Christ’s spirit. We cannot lose this faith completely however. We limit or lose some faith at times by not walking in Christ, falling out of fellowship, become a devil, etc. The kicker is that we cannot, and I say CANNOT extinguish this faith as in committing spiritual suicide by cutting off our entire life or bonding supply. A believer cannot do it if we are truly a believer In Christ. God is in control of this faith supply. In fact, he gives to each believer a measure of it. We cannot therefore 'lose' our salvation once we have it.

Now in contrast, as far as our physical body is concerned, which we have control over using our natural will, we can become deranged and commit suicide by cutting of the air supply by purposely drowning or suffocating/ asphyxiation. This we can do and many unfortunately lose their lives this way today.

I can supply scripture to this post if requested.


Bless all that are in Christ already, or those that seek God's face through Christ's work and representation of true life for all.



APAK

If we were to use this kind of reasoning in a race...you would have people at the beginning of the race believing they already won the race...since they don't believe they can lose. All this is fine until the end of the race...then there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it is with the OSAS doctrine. It lulls people into a false security...a false assurance.

God is NOT a respecter of persons. We are all in this race. Few will actually win any kind of prize. Many will be disqualified or be otherwise unable to finish.

Or...it is like war...nobody thinks they're going to die. But a lot of people do. So it breeds unrealistic expectations....and an unhealthy lack of reality. That's the unvarnished truth...but people HATE truth. They love a lie. It makes life seem easier. But it is deceptive.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Examine your heart Rollo before this upcoming Day of Atonement. I want to know all the rules of the forum and the link below hardly provides any.

1. I atone every day.
2. Look up community announcements near the top
3. 3rd thread - statement of faith
4. 2nd paragraph

 

[APAK]

If we were to use this kind of reasoning in a race...you would have people at the beginning of the race believing they already won the race...since they don't believe they can lose. All this is fine until the end of the race...then there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it is with the OSAS doctrine. It lulls people into a false security...a false assurance.

God is NOT a respecter of persons. We are all in this race. Few will actually win any kind of prize. Many will be disqualified or be otherwise unable to finish.

Or...it is like war...nobody thinks they're going to die. But a lot of people do. So it breeds unrealistic expectations....and an unhealthy lack of reality. That's the unvarnished truth...but people HATE truth. They love a lie. It makes life seem easier. But it is deceptive.

Epi: IMO your premise and depiction concerning Paul’s symbology of a ‘race’ of a believer is not scriptural at all. And if I can be so bold, it sounds like this premise is coming from a seeker or unbeliever.

I hope you are not trying to keep your theories ‘alive’ concerning your ‘Outer Darkness’ where some saved folks will end up there as a cruel surprise and that a believer can lose their faith completely and their salvation – again unscriptural ideas.

If you want to further this discussion on Paul’s ‘race’, then let me know…thanks


Bless you,



APAK

 

[GodsGrace]

You are soooo wrong. Hebrews 6:1 does NOT say, "that they are not AGAIN to lay a foundation of DEAD WORKS." It says to not lay again, "a foundation of repentance from dead works." Big difference. "Repentance from dead works" is a good thing as are the other things mentioned in verses 1-2. A "foundation of dead works" is a bad thing. The "dead works" are works that UNBELIEVERS do before coming to faith in Yeshua. They are not the good works which ALL believers are ordained to walk in. Hebrews 6:1-3 is an admonishment to believers to not return to the milk they were nourished on, but to go forward to maturity and perfection. Do not repent again of the dead works you already repented of when you first believed. Move on.

I posted the entire scripture I was speaking about.
I'll post it again:
Hebrews 6:1-6
1Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3And this we will do, if God permits.
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Not laying again a repentance from dead works:
Christianity was new. The believers were mainly Jewish by birth and by learning.
Paul was teaching them that they should not lay again a foundation of repentance from dead works...The Jews were accustomed to working for their salvation by following rules and regulations; they were not accustomed to salvation by grace.
Paul was telling them that they did not have to repent again but were to grow in their faith and move on, as you've said. I agree that Paul was telling them to make progress.

Dead works are the works done by the religious in order to try and gain God's approval. Who was religious but those that were of the Jewish faith.
Romans 3:20

Certainly you don't believe that a backslidden Christian cannot be sorry, ask forgiveness and be forgiven. Anyone in this situation can be forgiven,,,I had spoken of the Prodigal Son previously. He was accepted back by his father,,,Jesus had good reason to tell this parable, God is always ready to accept anyone.

But if someone left their religious ways, came to know of grace, and then returned to their religious ways, it would become impossible to get them back to grace again because they do not trust it and insult Jesus.

Peter refused Jesus Mathew 26:69-75
He repented and was forgiven and accepted by Jesus John 3:15-17

David committed a grievous sin 2 Samuel 11:26-27
He repented and was forgiven and accepted by God Psalm 51

 

[gadar perets]

1. I atone every day.
2. Look up community announcements near the top
3. 3rd thread - statement of faith
4. 2nd paragraph

This is all I see at the top of this page. I did not see it under any pull-down menu either.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This is all I see at the top of this page. I did not see it under any pull-down menu either.

View attachment 4023

Maybe because you don't belong here.