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Eternal Security

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics Forum' started by Rollo Tamasi, Aug 21, 2018.

  1. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    I never said translations must be word for word. In response to your erroneous statement, "A pure word for word translation would be unreadable", I said Colossians 1:15 is a readable word for word translation proving your statement false. I also said we cannot add words not found in the Greek that change the meaning of the text. You repeatedly ignore my words concerning "over". Why is that? Why do you keep bringing up other examples that do not address "over"? Justify "over" for me.

    You are talking about translation errors, not added words not found in the Hebrew or Greek text that change the meaning. Stick to the subject.
     
  2. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Surely you jest? If there is no saviour besides YHWH, then please explain both of these verses;

    2 Kings 13:5 - (And YHWH gave Israel a saviour, so that they went out from under the hand of the Syrians: and the children of Israel dwelt in their tents, as beforetime.
    Nehemiah 9:27 - Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies. ​
     
  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the LORD of hosts; and dwells within every saviour so that He is the one doing the saving work in them and through them.
     
  4. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    With you the subject seems to constantly be on the move.

    I would just pick out one issue by adding words. Linguists and other translations agree the KJV changes what was originally written:


    1 John 5:7-8 King James Version (KJV)
    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


    1 John 5:7-8 New International Version (NIV)
    7 For there are three that testify: 8 thea]">[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
     
  5. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith YHWH of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
    The "shepherd" is Yeshua. He is the "fellow" (associate, comrade, companion) of YHWH of hosts. Therefore, Yeshua is NOT YHWH of hosts.

    "every saviour"?? You just got done telling me there is "no saviour besides YHWH".


     
  6. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    Again you avoid justifying "over".

    Also, why do you keep bringing up KJV errors. I agree the KJV has many errors. Thankfully, "over" in Colossians 1:15 is not one of them.
     
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

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    I already answered.
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    YHWH is the only saviour: the saviours in Him are members of His body. Thus He is the Saviour within them doing the work of saving. The only reason why you don't understand this is because you are opposed to the concept that Jesus is God. If there were not a reason within your will to reject what I am saying, I believe you would readily be able to understand it. But as it is, you are thinking like the natural man.

    In response to the first part of what you wrote: I do not deny that there is a distinction between the Father and the Son. Now according to what you wrote, the Son is the fellow of the Father. No argument there. It would indicate however, to a certain extent, as a secondary verse, that the Son is equal to the Father (the primary verse being John 5:18).

    Now again, there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5). The Father is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). And Jesus is that Lord (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3). Therefore Jesus and the Father are one Lord (John 10:30, Mark 12:29 (kjv)).

    There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5). The Father is that Lord (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). And Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 4:15, 2 John 1:3). Therefore the Father is distinct from Jesus Christ; who is the Father with the added nature of a human body (Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:20); and therefore a distinct individual from the Father.

    Consider Isaiah 55:8-9. That you cannot wrap your mind around the Trinity does not make it untrue. If we could understand God perfectly, we might even be on the same level as Him and therefore would not be inclined to even worship Him.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2018
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  9. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    We are not told YHWH was IN those saviours. It may very well be that His Spirit moved them externally. Also, the concept of YHWH's people being His "body" as Yeshua's people are his "body" in the NT is foreign to the OT as is the belief that the YHWH of the OT is the Son.

    While the Jews misunderstood Yeshua to be claiming equality with the Father in John 5:18, Yeshua himself clearly proclaimed there is NO equality between him and the Father.

    John 14:28 - "...for my Father is greater than I."
    John 10:29 - "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all..."
    John 13:16 - "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant [Yeshua] is not greater than his lord [YHWH]; neither he that is sent [Yeshua] greater than he that sent him [YHWH]."​

    I'm done trying to explain this to you. If you want to persist in your ignorance, go right ahead.

    There is NOT ONE Christian who can wrap his/her mind around the trinity which is why there are so many variations in what people teach about it. They simply parrot what they are taught by those who think they understand it. One cannot wrap their mind around something that is untrue and man made.
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I am done trying to explain it to you also. Jesus said (Genesis 6:3), My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
     
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  11. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    So, now you not only teach falsely that Jesus is YHWH, but you have the audacity to actually remove "YHWH" from a verse and replace it with "Jesus"?? That is an even graver mistake than removing "YHWH" to replace it with "the LORD". At least they did that out of a misguided reverence for the name "YHWH". You do it out of downright ignorance to support your false doctrine.
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I did that out of a certainty that Jesus is YHWH. If I were in any way uncertain of the fact, I would not be taking chances on this by saying that when the LORD speaks it is Jesus doing the speaking. For Jesus is the LORD. Can you say that? Consider the phonetic element in light of 1 Corinthians 12:3.
     
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  13. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    JWs are certain Jesus is Michael. Is it OK for them to use Jesus whenever the Bible mentions Michael? If not, then your use of it is not OK either. In fact, I would say it is a sin to do so since it is a lie, albeit done in ignorance.

    Since I would never call YHWH "the LORD", I certainly would not call Yeshua "the LORD". Why would I want to use a man made substitute title for either the Father or the Son? Nor would I call my Saviour "Jesus". I forsook such error long ago. However, I can say "Yeshua is Lord" with no problem.

    BTW, the KJV ERRONEOUSLY adds the article "the" before "Lord" in 1 Corinthians 12:3 and it doesn't use "LORD" in that verse either as it does elsewhere to make a distinction between YHWH and the Son (Matthew 22:44; Acts 2:34; etc). It is only you and those who believe like you who choose to carelessly handle the Word of YHWH and makes such blunders.
     
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    It is no lie.

    It is not erroneous at all.
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    You have a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible (2 Corinthians 11:3-4); and so you must call Him by a different name.

    If it were only a matter of pronunciation, I would have no problem with your statement. But your definition of who Yeshua is, is that He is not God. So who is He, exactly? An angel? A man without the Spirit? Someone who was born in whom the Holy Spirit originally dwelt? if the latter, then you must realize that the Spirit of Jesus is the Father, as I would ascertain from passages like John 4:23-24 and John 14:7-11.

    I would also ask you how it is that you think that an impersonal abstract idea became a Person. To me, it seems that if the Son of God is a Person now, He was a Person before He was incarnated also. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and for ever (Hebrews 13:8).
     
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  16. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    How ironic. It is Christians that call him by a different name than what he was given at birth. They even call him by a different name than they called him before the letter "J" was invented.

    He is a 100% male human being that has the indwelling Holy Spirit within him without measure. The Spirit that is IN Yeshua is the Father. That does not make Yeshua the Father. It makes the Father living IN Yeshua just as He lives in all other believers.

    Every person that has ever been born started as a thought in YHWH's mind. When the appointed time came, they were given an existence as a person. The same is true of Yeshua.

    The writer of Hebrews 13:8 is simply saying that the same way Yeshua was since walking this earth ("yesterday" to the writer of Hebrews) is the same way he will always be. You want to read an eternity past into those words.
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    What matters about Jesus' name is really and truly the Person of Jesus Christ. You can apply the Hebrew pronunciation all you want; but if you apply a different personhood to Jesus then you are not speaking of the Jesus of the Bible. And if I use the English pronunciation of His name, and also attribute to that name the real Person of who Jesus is, then I have the right Jesus and the right name. It is a cultic mentality that nitpicks over pronunication. What matters is that Jesus Christ is the one who is truly preached (Romans 10:14-17) when His name is mentioned: the true Jesus; for there are many counterfeits (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)

    Jesus' goings were indeed from of old: from everlasting (Micah 5:2).
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
  18. gadar perets

    gadar perets Well-Known Member

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    I agree the Person of Yeshua matters more than the pronunciation of his name. However, the truth of what his name is matters as well. BTW, the name "Yeshua" is not a "Hebrew pronunciation". It is a heavenly pronunciation given to his Hebrew parents by YHWH through an angel (Luke 2:21). So you are fighting against a command from heaven in favor of your erroneous man made name "Jesus".

    I preach the true Yeshua (the Son of YHWH). You preach a counterfeit by saying he is YHWH.

    According to Strong's Concordance, "Goings forth" comes from one Hebrew word, "mowtsaah". It means, "a family descent." Since YHWH is Yeshua's Father, Yeshua's family descent would go back as far as YHWH's existence. Since YHWH has always existed, Yeshua's family descent or goings forth must be from everlasting. Yeshua himself is not from everlasting. His family descent, or his family tree, is.
     
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I know from Isaiah 9:6 that Jesus is the everlasting Father. He is YHWH according to that scripture. A man is comprised of spirit and soul and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). So by your own words Jesus is the Father, since you have recently admitted that His Spirit is the Father.

    I would go on to say that, while I do not have a proof of this from scripture, I believe that it is a first truth that spirit and soul and body are inexplicably intertwined within every human being so that my spirit and soul and body make one person, even me.

    It is really funny to me how when people lose an argument, they try to go back to the original Greek or Hebrew and say that the scripture doesn't really mean what it says in English. Their God is not sovereign, Omnipotent, and loving so that He would preserve His word in the language that they read it in so that His unadulterated message might be given to the common people. To them, the educated (Greek and Hebrew scholars) scribes and Pharisees (who rejected Christ) are the most privileged, while the common people who actually received Jesus cannot really know the true message of the gospel.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  20. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews and Romans 8 would point to the perseverance of the saints!
     
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