Eternal Security

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GodsGrace

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What I was trying to say is that being saved and being adopted as sons are practically synonymous.

Therefore, when we are predestinated to be adopted as sons, we are predestinated unto salvation.
The above is not clear to me.

Do you believe God predestines those that will be saved?
 

GodsGrace

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It proves he is not "God", but only a creation of "God" (YHWH).


It doesn't say he is "the firstborn before all creation". The possessive "of" means he is part of the creation. Nor is John 1:3 talking about a person who trinitarians read into the text.

You don't mention it, but you believe John 1:3 is referring to "it" and not "he".
There is some conflict about this...I'm not prepared to discuss it because I'm not a theologian, I can only accept what Christian churches have come to believe from the beginning times. At Nicea it was accepted that Jesus is God.


What's it going to be? "By Jesus" or "through Jesus"? Verse 16 should read, "For IN him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him."
I don't understand the difference -- to me there is no difference.
All things were created by the WORD of God. God thought what He wanted to create and SPOKE it...Jesus is that WORD in the flesh. The WORD created everything. If it's through the word or in the word makes no difference to me.

The Holy Spirit is the BREATH of God. In Genesis God BREATHED life into Adam.

This is the best way I can understand the Trinity, which you deny.


It does not say "He holds all things together." It says all things are set together IN him. All of creation was put together with the Son in YHWH's plan.
Yes..the SON was in Yahweh's plan all along.. the SON, which would be Jesus incarnate. But the WORD of God always existed.

God is made of 3 parts: The invisible creator, the Word of God, the Breath of God.
He's triune, just like we are since we're made in His image.


Anyone can forgive sins IF YHWH gives him that authority. YHWH gave all authority to His Son. He did not give that authority to Catholic priests.
Catholic priests won't agree with you. If Yahweh gave authority to Jesus, and Jesus gave the same authority to the Apostles, is this not valid?
John 20:23 (and then it's passed down --- I'm not Catholic )


That is the result of having it drilled into your mind year after year as well as the result of reading biased translations.
You know very well that I've looked into this myself.
I don't agree with everything I've learned in church.
As far as biased translations...I'm not one to hang on every word because not every word came out of the mouth of God. Man had a lot to do with the writing of scripture; even though some do not accept this.


To worship the Son as the only true God is idolatry plain and simple. Nor will I sit idly by while people rob YHWH of His glory and give it to His Son. The Son is deserving of all the glory that is rightly his (dying for the sins of the world, King of YHWH's Kingdom, everlasting High Priest, being the promised Messiah, etc.), but he is not to be given his Father's glory (the glory of creation, the promises made to the patriarchs, the exodus, the giving of Torah, the ultimate rulership of the Kingdom, etc.)
Interesting. Are we robbing God of His glory?

Please answer this:
Re Thomas...my Lord and my God.
If he's referring to God as theos or elohim, wouldn't that be repeating himself?
Wouldn't Lord and "God" be the same?
 

gadar perets

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And here is Strong's.

Strong's Number: 2937

Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
ktivsiß from (2936)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ktisis 3:1000,481
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ktis'-is Noun Feminine
Definition
  1. the act of founding, establishing, building etc
    1. the act of creating, creation
    2. creation i.e. thing created
      1. of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation 1b
    3. anything created 1b
    4. after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called) 1b
    5. the sum or aggregate of things created
    6. institution, ordinance
None of them support your use of creature.
  1. the act of founding, establishing, building etc
    1. the act of creating, creation
    2. creation i.e. thing created
      1. of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation 1b
    3. anything created 1b
    4. after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called) 1b
    5. the sum or aggregate of things created
    6. institution, ordinance

Here what various versions use. A catholic one and KJV variations are the only ones using creature.
As all lexicons show, "creation" includes all "creatures" as Strong's #2 above shows.

Please show me a word that translates as "over" in the Greek.
 

gadar perets

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There is no saviour besides YHWH. Isaiah 43:11.
I encourage you to study the issue more deeply (2 Kings 13:5; Nehemiah 9:27; Isaiah 19:20; Obadiah 1:21).

Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God [YHWH] according to His promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Yeshua:
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father [YHWH] sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.​
 

gadar perets

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You don't mention it, but you believe John 1:3 is referring to "it" and not "he".
There is some conflict about this...I'm not prepared to discuss it because I'm not a theologian, I can only accept what Christian churches have come to believe from the beginning times. At Nicea it was accepted that Jesus is God.

"Christian churches" are coming to believe that it is OK to have homosexual leaders. That does not make it right. For hundreds of years, prior to the KJV, English speaking Christian churches grew up on "it", not "him".

I don't understand the difference -- to me there is no difference.
All things were created by the WORD of God. God thought what He wanted to create and SPOKE it...Jesus is that WORD in the flesh. The WORD created everything. If it's through the word or in the word makes no difference to me.

That is because you view "the WORD" through trinitarian glasses. Show me where the "logos" is a person prior to Yeshua's birth. If God "SPOKE it", then it was not a second person of a trinity that came out of God's mouth to create.

The Holy Spirit is the BREATH of God. In Genesis God BREATHED life into Adam.

This is the best way I can understand the Trinity, which you deny.
Yes, YHWH breathed. It was not a third person of a trinity that breathed, but Father YHWH Himself.

Catholic priests won't agree with you. If Yahweh gave authority to Jesus, and Jesus gave the same authority to the Apostles, is this not valid?
John 20:23 (and then it's passed down --- I'm not Catholic )
You just got done trying to teach me that only God can forgive sins. Now you are trying to tell me the Catholic priests can as well?


Interesting. Are we robbing God of His glory?

Please answer this:
Re Thomas...my Lord and my God.
If he's referring to God as theos or elohim, wouldn't that be repeating himself?
Wouldn't Lord and "God" be the same?
No, they are not the same. They are two different Greek words with two different meanings. One can be a Lord without being God. One can be an elohim without being God as well. Angels are elohim, but they are NOT God. As far as I know, angels are not Lords either even though they are elohim.
 

CoreIssue

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  1. the act of founding, establishing, building etc
    1. the act of creating, creation
    2. creation i.e. thing created
      1. of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation 1b
    3. anything created 1b
    4. after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called) 1b
    5. the sum or aggregate of things created
    6. institution, ordinance

As all lexicons show, "creation" includes all "creatures" as Strong's #2 above shows.

Please show me a word that translates as "over" in the Greek.
Being included does not make it the correct translation for the usage and for harmony with the rest of the bible.

As for "over," you show me "of." You cannot and you know it.

The bible says all things were created for and by him. You want to reduce him to something created by someone else.
 

GodsGrace

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"Christian churches" are coming to believe that it is OK to have homosexual leaders. That does not make it right. For hundreds of years, prior to the KJV, English speaking Christian churches grew up on "it", not "him".


That is because you view "the WORD" through trinitarian glasses. Show me where the "logos" is a person prior to Yeshua's birth. If God "SPOKE it", then it was not a second person of a trinity that came out of God's mouth to create.


Yes, YHWH breathed. It was not a third person of a trinity that breathed, but Father YHWH Himself.

I was listening to something on YouTube that was explaining that even in the O.T. God was often referred to in the plural. I'd like to send it to you if I could find it again.

As to "it", "He", the Word and Breath --- this is my whole point.
God Father, Yahweh, is a being. In that being is His thoughts/Word and His breath/Spirit.

So we have the being, the Word and the Breath.
Father, Word, Spirit
Father, Son, Spirit


God is one being but within Him are His thoughts, Word and His Spirit.
Both His Word and His Breath became for us a person,,,Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

You just got done trying to teach me that only God can forgive sins. Now you are trying to tell me the Catholic priests can as well?
I don't teach anybody anything...I DID teach kids, I don't teach anyone on these forums...I'm just here to discuss and put forth what I've learned.

What I was getting at is that if Yahweh could authorize Jesus to forgive sin,
then why can't Jesus authorize the Apostles to forgive sin? (John 20:23)
IOW, I believe Jesus forgave sin because He was God and COULD forgive sin.
This is a reason why the Pharisees were so upset with Him, because they believed only God could forgive sins. Wouldn't this automatically make Jesus God?
If we want to say that Jesus cannot authorize the Apostles and today's catholic priests to forgive sin, then we also have to acknowledge that only God can forgive sin. This was my point --- I wasn't clear.



No, they are not the same. They are two different Greek words with two different meanings. One can be a Lord without being God. One can be an elohim without being God as well. Angels are elohim, but they are NOT God. As far as I know, angels are not Lords either even though they are elohim.
I'll take your word for this.
It would be interesting to go over the Thomas statement the next time I see my Koine Greek friend. See what he has to say about it...
 

gadar perets

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As for "over," you show me "of." You cannot and you know it.

The word πασης is a form of the adjective marked similar below. This form's case is genitive (which usually indicates "of"), its number is single, and its gender is feminine. Abarim Publications

The bible says all things were created for and by him. You want to reduce him to something created by someone else.
No. It says "through and for him". I have no desire to reduce Messiah in any way except where men exalted him to the position of the "only true God", a position that the real "only true God" never gave him. I believe what Paul wrote and do not try to discard it as you do because it destroys the trinity doctrine.
 

gadar perets

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As to "it", "He", the Word and Breath --- this is my whole point.
God Father, Yahweh, is a being. In that being is His thoughts/Word and His breath/Spirit.

So we have the being, the Word and the Breath.
Father, Word, Spirit
Father, Son, Spirit


God is one being but within Him are His thoughts, Word and His Spirit.
Both His Word and His Breath became for us a person,,,Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit has always existed as the power and influence of the Father. It NEVER became a third person of a trinity. The logos did indeed become a person, but before that it was the Father's spoken words, thoughts, plans, etc. Even after the logos was made flesh, that flesh was not the second person of a fictitious trinity. He is the Son of the only true God.

What I was getting at is that if Yahweh could authorize Jesus to forgive sin,
then why can't Jesus authorize the Apostles to forgive sin? (John 20:23)
He can authorize them to do so. He did not authorize Catholic priests to do so.

IOW, I believe Jesus forgave sin because He was God and COULD forgive sin.
This is a reason why the Pharisees were so upset with Him, because they believed only God could forgive sins. Wouldn't this automatically make Jesus God?
If we want to say that Jesus cannot authorize the Apostles and today's catholic priests to forgive sin, then we also have to acknowledge that only God can forgive sin. This was my point --- I wasn't clear.
You just took a giant leap from Yeshua forgiving sin because he was authorized to do so, to him forgiving sin because he is God. No. He forgave sin because he was GIVEN that authority by God.
 

CoreIssue

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The word πασης is a form of the adjective marked similar below. This form's case is genitive (which usually indicates "of"), its number is single, and its gender is feminine. Abarim Publications


No. It says "through and for him". I have no desire to reduce Messiah in any way except where men exalted him to the position of the "only true God", a position that the real "only true God" never gave him. I believe what Paul wrote and do not try to discard it as you do because it destroys the trinity doctrine.


Strong's Concordance
pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, every

Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1223 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
diav a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Dia 2:65,149
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
dee-ah' Preposition

Definition

  1. through
    1. of place
      1. with
      2. in
    2. of time
      1. throughout
      2. during
    3. of means
      1. by
      2. by the means of
  2. through
    1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
      1. by reason of
      2. on account of
      3. because of for this reason
      4. therefore
      5. on this account
No conflict with what I said and think.

But confusing on what your claiming? So what are you claiming?
 

gadar perets

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Strong's Concordance
pas: all, every
Original Word: πᾶς, πᾶσα, πᾶν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Definition: all, every

Usage: all, the whole, every kind of.

"Of" has nothing to do with the definition of pas and everything to do with the genitive case which is possessive - of. "Over" is not part of the definition of pas, nor can it be implied grammatically. It is simply a man-made addition to make Colossians 1:15 more palatable for trinitarians.

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 1223 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
diav a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Dia 2:65,149
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
dee-ah' Preposition

Definition
  1. through
    1. of place
      1. with
      2. in
    2. of time
      1. throughout
      2. during
    3. of means
      1. by
      2. by the means of
  2. through
    1. the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
      1. by reason of
      2. on account of
      3. because of for this reason
      4. therefore
      5. on this account
No conflict with what I said and think.

But confusing on what your claiming? So what are you claiming?
To translate "dia" as "by" causes disharmony with verses that say YHWH (Yeshua's Father) created everything all by Himself by speaking things into existence (Isaiah 44:24; Isaiah 45:12; Isaiah 45:18; Psalms 33:6; Genesis 1:3; etc.)
 

CoreIssue

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"Of" has nothing to do with the definition of pas and everything to do with the genitive case which is possessive - of. "Over" is not part of the definition of pas, nor can it be implied grammatically. It is simply a man-made addition to make Colossians 1:15 more palatable for trinitarians.
Your argument is meaningless.

Colossians 1:15 New International Version (NIV)
The Supremacy of the Son of God
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

I understand the use of word over in this context.
2a —used as a function word to indicate the possession of authority, power, or jurisdiction in regard to some thing or person respected those over him


b —used as a function word to indicate superiority, advantage, or preference a big lead over the others

I also understand you cannot translate everything word for word because different languages use different words differently.

An example it is Christ was not nailed through his hands, but his wrists. The Greek word defines hand to include the wrist.

That is called dynamic translation vs. Word for word translation. Or meaning for meaning if you prefer.

Finally, YHWH is the Trinity, not just the first person of the Trinity, who is the Father.
 

justbyfaith

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I encourage you to study the issue more deeply (2 Kings 13:5; Nehemiah 9:27; Isaiah 19:20; Obadiah 1:21).

Acts 13:23 Of this man's seed hath God [YHWH] according to His promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Yeshua:
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father [YHWH] sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.​
Do those verses nullify Isaiah 43:11?

You need to consider how those verses can fit together to form a more complete and larger puzzle piece composed of smaller ones.
 

gadar perets

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Do those verses nullify Isaiah 43:11?

You need to consider how those verses can fit together to form a more complete and larger puzzle piece composed of smaller ones.
No, they don't nullify Isaiah 43:11. They help us to understand that "and besides me there is no saviour" does NOT mean YHWH is the ONLY saviour in existence. When Isaiah wrote that there were already saviours that YHWH raised up to save Israel. There would also be saviours He will raise up after Isaiah wrote that. One of those saviours is Yeshua. YHWH, the ultimate Saviour, raised up another saviour to carry out His will of saving the world.
 

gadar perets

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2a —used as a function word to indicate the possession of authority, power, or jurisdiction in regard to some thing or person respected those over him


b —used as a function word to indicate superiority, advantage, or preference a big lead over the others
What are you citing here? A definition for "over"?

The translation "over all" was used several times in the NT. Most of the time the word "over" is from the Greek word "epi". It is used in conjunction with "pasan" (epi pasan) with pasan being in the accusative, not the genitive as in Colossians 1:15. If Paul meant "over all" in Colossians 1:15, he would have written "epi pasan". Sometimes "over all" is from the Greek "huper panta", again with "panta" in the accusative. There is no justification for the NIV's bogus parahrase.
 

CoreIssue

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What are you citing here? A definition for "over"?

The translation "over all" was used several times in the NT. Most of the time the word "over" is from the Greek word "epi". It is used in conjunction with "pasan" (epi pasan) with pasan being in the accusative, not the genitive as in Colossians 1:15. If Paul meant "over all" in Colossians 1:15, he would have written "epi pasan". Sometimes "over all" is from the Greek "huper panta", again with "panta" in the accusative. There is no justification for the NIV's bogus parahrase.

The fact that you support the KJV so adamantly but attack the NIV and then try to sound so scholarly says it all. Especially in light of other things you have claimed.
 

gadar perets

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The fact that you support the KJV so adamantly but attack the NIV and then try to sound so scholarly says it all. Especially in light of other things you have claimed.
If you have been following my earlier posts, you would know that I came against jbf's KJV infallibility stance. Why? Because I know enough Greek and Hebrew to know where the KJV errs. I also know when the NIV or any other translation errs. How? By examining the Greek and Hebrew texts. If you can't deal with my deeper way of studying Scripture, then bow out of the conversation. No need to make this personal simply because your arguments can't stand up to mine.
 

CoreIssue

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If you have been following my earlier posts, you would know that I came against jbf's KJV infallibility stance. Why? Because I know enough Greek and Hebrew to know where the KJV errs. I also know when the NIV or any other translation errs. How? By examining the Greek and Hebrew texts. If you can't deal with my deeper way of studying Scripture, then bow out of the conversation. No need to make this personal simply because your arguments can't stand up to mine.

I can deal with it.

I also know enough Greek and Hebrew to see you're claiming you can do correct word for word when neither language even contain some parts of speech and so on you claim. As when you say things like you're,"deeper way of studying Scripture."

Also know this about me, when you that accuse me of something, try to discredit me and so one, I will be blunt in my response.

I will respond to what I feel needs response. No one person owns a debate/ discussion.

Routinely using Greek and Hebrew words when not needed does not make you sound more intellectual and spiritual.

With that said, Let us move forward.