Sure, but I was referring to the timing of the rapture, and Paul didn't make it into a doctrine. All modern rapture positions are based upon specific timings of when it will occur.
Every rapture position is new
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Sure, but I was referring to the timing of the rapture, and Paul didn't make it into a doctrine. All modern rapture positions are based upon specific timings of when it will occur.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
It's true that Enoch was translated so that he did not pass through the death process, but was given a glorified, changed body form that would never die. But he was NOT taken to heaven, because John 3:13 tells us that "no man hath ascended up to heaven" as of that point in time - not even Elijah, who was taken "as it were into heaven" - not that Elijah ever ascended to heaven to actually be in God's presence by that whirlwind transport.
So you can cross Elijah off this list. Elijah was likewise "appointed" to die once, like any other man. Elijah was NOT translated as he was taken by the whirlwind into the sky. He was merely transported to another location on earth, where some 10 years after his whirlwind transport into the skies, Elijah wrote that letter to King Jehoram in 2 Chron. 21:12. "And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet..." listing King Jehoram's past sins, and predicting the manner of his coming death.
You can also eliminate the "alive" and "remaining" saints in 1 Thess. 4. There is NO translation process mentioned there at all in those verses. The rapture doctrine as is usually presented has mistakenly included a translation change for the living saints, when this goes totally contrary to the "ONCE to die" rule found in Hebrews 9:27 and in 1 Cor. 15:22. "As in Adam ALL die...". Even the believers. Nobody gets off this planet without passing through the physical death process. It is the mortal remains of the dead saints which 1 Cor. 15 teaches will be "changed" into the immortal and incorruptible condition in the resurrection process. For them, death has no sting, and the grave has no victory over them in the long run, because they are to be resurrected.
Paul's 1 Thess. 4 mention of the "alive" and "remaining" saints was speaking of those individuals who had already been made "alive" by the resurrection process (such as Lazarus, Dorcas, the widow's son, Jairus' daughter, the Matt. 27:52-53 saints, etc.). These had all "remained" on the earth in those first century days, and were awaiting their eventual transport into heaven at Christ's coming return.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Well, if we look as the correct teaching then we would view it like this.
The "time of the Gentiles" ends and the Trib Starts.
So, the "church" wont be going into the Trib, so this means that they exit the earth between the "time of the gentiles" and the beginning of the Trib.
This literally could be today, and i hope so.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
The dead in Christ are raised from the dead as humans.
THEN THEY ARE RAPTURED.
WHEN do they receive their glorified bodies?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Way way off.
You can cross that entire post off your list.
Doctrine has you twisting the bible.
2 Kings 2:1
And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
You were sayin ?
The dead in Christ are resurrected into incorruptible, eternal life bodies.
The living in Christ are translated, changed in the twinkling of an eye, to incorruptible, eternal life bodies.
Together, we will then meet the Lord in the air, to forever be with the Lord.
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1Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Thessalonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Here is that same passage in the LXX. "And it came to pass, when the Lord was going to take Eliu with a whirlwind as it were into heaven, that Eliu and Elisaie went out of Galgala."
And later in verse 11 of the same chapter in the LXX..."And it came to pass as they were going, they went on talking; and, behold, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and it separated between them both; and Eliu was taken up in a whirlwind as it were into heaven."
So, to all appearances for Elisha at ground level, Elijah seemed to go "as it were into heaven", but was merely transported through the skies elsewhere to another location on earth where he wrote that letter in 2 Chronicles 21:12 to King Jehoram some 10 years or so later. This interpretation of Elijah's whirlwind transport into the skies to be taken to another location on earth agrees with the later statement of Christ in John 3:13, that, as of that time, "NO MAN hath ascended up to heaven but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." The Scriptures must agree with each other, without contradictions.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
This is the common assumption. But this assumption is an addition to the Scriptures, which never promise this kind of translation-type change for the living believers who have not physically died yet. It is the DEAD bodies of the believers that are changed to the incorruptible and immortal state in the twinkling of an eye, as the 1 Cor. 15 context describes, so that death has no sting and the grave has no victory in the long run.
I believe Enoch’s body “went the way of all the earth.” God took his spirit to Abraham’s bosom, and his body went through the death process and decayed back into dust.
At the resurrection of Christ, Enoch and the other Old Testament believers received new bodies and ascended with Him at His ascension.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
That is not even possible, according to what Revelation 15:8 tells us. The temple in heaven was not opened for resurrected humanity to enter it until after the 7 plagues were poured out. "...and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled." These 7 plagues had not happened by the time Christ ascended.
This also is not possible, according to the description of the translated Enoch who never saw death in Hebrews 11:5. When we read Hebrews 11:13, which tells us that "These all died in faith..." it is NOT referring back to the translated Enoch; it is referring back to Hebrews 11:12 instead. "Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. THESE" (the descendants of Abraham) "all died in faith, not having received the promises..." (the promises given to Abraham, the father of many nations).
I understand that view, I used to believe that myself.
In that view of Hebrews 11:13, saying it didn’t apply to Enoch, is saying that Enoch received the promises that God made to Christ which were not available to anyone until Christ came.
Beside that, Hebrews NEVER says that Enoch did not die, it says that he did not SEE death.
It’s no different than Jesus saying “Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. “
All believers leave this world the exact same way Enoch left this world. The Lord takes the soul from the body and the body falls to ground dead.
Do you think you going to see death?
Are you realizing that "ascended" here is in the Active voice? So Jesus is saying here, "no one has of themself ascended up to heaven", but He is not at all saying that no one has been taken into heaven.
Much love!
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Enoch was TRANSLATED so that he would not see death. Nobody before or after that has ever or will ever be translated to avoid the physical death process. Enoch was unique in this regard. God selected Enoch as the single individual who would experience this translation change, which was for a very special reason.
The translated Enoch who was given that incorruptible, immortal, glorified body without passing through physical death left this planet with the raptured, resurrected saints in AD 70 at Christ's second coming return.
You and I will not be raptured off this planet like Enoch. When Christ bodily returns in our future for the final resurrection and judgment, I believe He intends for this planet to be populated ONLY with glorified, resurrected believers, with all remaining human evil purged from it. Why would we need to leave it at that point? God did nor form this planet in vain: He created it to be inhabited, which I believe it will be throughout eternity, as God originally designed.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
Did you take note of the Revelation 15:8 text which strictly prohibited anyone from entering heaven's temple until the 7 plagues had been poured out? And did you take note of the 2 Chron. 21:12 verse which states that Elijah was writing that letter to King Jehoram - loooong after his whirlwind transport into the sky? Prophets do not write letters from heaven and send them by angelic courier to kings on earth.
Nobody ascended to heaven or was taken to heaven into God's presence before "Christ the FIRST-born" and the "FIRST-begotten" did this on His resurrection-day ascension. Christ had to "open the matrix" by being the first to make a way for mankind to enter God's presence. By His being consecrated by God as our Great High Priest in heaven that morning, Christ the FIRST-born to ascend to heaven made it possible for the rest of His resurrected siblings to follow Him there later on.
This is your own opinion, we all have them, just the same, the Bible does not say that no one was taken into heaven before Jesus' resurrection.
Much love!
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3 Resurrections
Active Member
It is impossible for resurrected humanity to appear before God's throne without a Mediator between them and God. Christ had to establish this Great High Priest Mediator role FIRST, before any resurrected saints could ascend to heaven and stand before God face to face. It is why Satan was cast out of heaven at Christ's resurrection-day ascension. The blood of the Lamb was what overcame that "accuser of the brethren" at that point. It is all a very precise judicial process set up by God for His glory and our benefit.
As long as you are OK that this is your opinion, not Scripture teaching.
Much love!
3 Resurrections
Active Member
"As in Adam, ALL die". "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die". Since I am "In Adam" as one of his descendants, my physical body will pass through the physical death process, but my spirit has already been given eternal life, which will be "present with the Lord"at my physical death. While in this life, the Holy Spirit within me is the "earnest of my inheritance" - my promised assurance that my mortal remains will eventually be raised to a changed, immortal and incorruptible life in the next resurrection event.
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Jeremiah 35:18-19 KJV
18) And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:
19) Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.
18) And Jeremiah said unto the house of the Rechabites, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Because ye have obeyed the commandment of Jonadab your father, and kept all his precepts, and done according unto all that he hath commanded you:
19) Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Jonadab the son of Rechab shall not want a man to stand before me for ever.
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