Facts on Rev 20:4 before placing it into a system

[Ghada]

Some points I see on Rev. 20:4 -

Examining the phrase "souls of them/those" in Rev. 20:4, and where is that phrase found?

"souls of those" in the Bible is only found Rev. 6:9 & 20:4 in YLT, RSV, REB, ESV, NRSV

"souls of them" in the Bible is only found Rev. 6:9 & 20:4 in KJV, RV, ASV, Douay

g5590 psuche g4969 sphazo Rev. 6:9

g5590 psuche g3990 pelekizo in Rev. 20:4

"psuche" is "From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely ..." 1890 Strong's

"pelekizo" is "From a derivative of G4141 (meaning an axe); to chop off (the head), that is, truncate: - behead." 1890 Strong's

"sphazo" is "A primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specifically) to maim (violently): - kill, slay, wound." 1890 Strong's

You are also applying a good standard for all prophecy. The Revelation of Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of all prophecy, like a puzzle's picture on the box to be used when piecing the puzzle together. And so we must first see the fulfillment photo of all prophecy, by interpreting what we can of Revelation on it's own first.

And so, you show where souls are spoken of at least twice in Revelation. A caveat however must include Bible doctrine to interpret prophecy. In this case, only the souls of men and women are created in the image of God and only those souls saved and justified by Christ can be in the presence of God at death of the body (Rev 6), and seated in their own thrones with Christ after the resurrection of the bodies. (Rev 18)

The souls of men and women are also spoken of in Rev 18, as being used as merchandize from Babylon for all merchants of the earth. This shows where that great city Babylon is also ministerial in nature, as well as in practical business affairs. It's called turning the Father's business into a worldly people business for ministerial power and profit.

The phrase "thousand years" is found in the following places, apart from Revelation 20.

"For a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when it is past, or like a watch in the night." Ps 90:4 NRSV

"Even though he should live a thousand years twice over, yet enjoy no good—do not all go to one place?" Eccl 6:6 NRSV

"But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day." 2Pet 3:8 NRSV

The problem here is not first establishing that the thousand years of Rev 20, that is mentioned 6 times in as many verses, are 'a' and 'the' thousand years, which can only be read as literal. The fact that they 'expire' exactly at that thousand year point to the day further confirms their literalcy. Therefore, they cannot be compared to Bible doctrine on God's timeline of a day being as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. To conflate the two, would be a bad interpretation for both timeline doctrine of the Bible, and the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. Turning real events and times in the Bible into symbols is a more common error in Christian teaching, there there ought to be. Afterall, the world does the same by making any miracle of the Bible into just another symbol or fable of man, such as parting the Red Sea, and causing the sun to stand still.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

Notice how this verse purposely includes the Lord's coming to earth as not being symbolic, which includes His first and second coming. He literally has come first in the flesh as the sacrificial lamb of God, and literal comes a second time as the Lamb with power and wrath, to inherit and rule all nations for a thousand years.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

We also notice how prophecy also is to be treated as literally as doctrine of God. Rev 1:3 promises the blessing of not just hearing and interpreting prophecy correctly, but also of keeping those things in prophecy as the faith and commandments of God.

That's how some Christians do away with torment of hell and of the lake of fire, by making it symbol only.

 

[Ghada]

Then I look at the word "throne(s)" -

The word "throne(s)" is found 37 times in Revelation, 73% of the occurrences in the NT. They all seem to refer to the throne(s) of God or his own in heaven which is stated explicitly in -

"At once I was in the spirit, and there in heaven stood a throne, with one seated on the throne!" Rev 4:2 NRSV

There is always one throne of God. The one in heaven now that John sees in Rev 4, where the Father and the Son sit together, and are seen as one jasper and sardine colored stone. Knowing that the Son is seated at the Father's right hand in that throne, shows again the one Godhead unity of Father and Son.

The throne of God on the new earth will be that of God and the Lamb.

The thrones in Revelation are those of the saints of Christ, that are first resurrected at His second coming to meet Him in the air. That will be just before He inherits all nations and rules them with the scepter of righteousness of His kingdom. (Heb 1) It's also used as a shepherd's rod of iron.

There are also the seats of the 24 elders before the throne of God, but that is an interpretive translation of thrones, not just grammatic, And so they can be included as thrones in Revelation prophecy. Some Christians interpret the latter thrones of the resurrected saints are the same as these 24 elders. But the second coming of Jesus out of heaven in Rev 19 is after His showing in the throne room and opening of the book in Rev 5.

I find no reference where God or his people in bodily form are sitting on a throne on the earth.

This is true, and so interpretation of exactly where those thrones of resurrected saints are seated can be open to interpretation. We only know that the Lord Himself will stand on Olivet, and will be seated in His newly constructed temple of His glory in Jeruslaem. He and His first resurrected saints will rule with shepherds rods of iron over all nations on earth inherited by the Lord.

Where the saints' thrones are becomes only an interesting time of speculation, since the Lord Himself will be seated in His kingdom throne on earth. And since a thousand years will be as but a day to His resurrected saints and co-rulers, it really doesn't matter much to them, does it?

However, we do know at least some of the resurrected saints will be on earth, since Abraham will receive the personally promised him, and Job will stand and see God his Redeemer on earth.

This reign with Christ in v5 is referred to as the "first resurrection", but a "second resurrection" is not in this chapter, but "second death" is, in v14.

It's never called a second resurrection, but rather when the rest of the dead live again to stand before God be judged by their works. Those doers of righteous works justified by God, will be written in the Lamb's book of life, and those doers of works of the devil condemned by God, will be cast into the lake of fire to join the devil, his antichrist beast, and false prophet.

In spite of all the difficulties in this passage, I can't ignore the preceding facts in attempting to understand John's words. It seems closer to the facts revealed, that Rev 20:4 is referring to those back in Rev. 6:9 -

Well done. The obvious is always best to interpret prophecy. There is the simplicity of Christ and the simplicity of His words, that any child can understand, so long as we don't cling to preconceived ideas and personal agendas.

Rev 6 are obviously the living souls of the dead in Christ, gone into the presence of the Lord, when their bodies go to the grave. They are reunited on earth with their resurrected immortal bodies, and will be joined by them still alive on earth, who are instantly changed into immortality. They then altogether rise to meet the Lord in the air.

This shows that the first resurrection of Jesus' church from the OT and NT, is at His second coming from heaven. It also shows there will be Christian saints alive and remaining on earth at that very moment.

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed." Rev 6:9-11 NRSV

Very well done. We don't have to accept a translator's translation, if it is not doctrinally as accurate as other words we can also correctly use. By the King James use of the word 'beheaded', some Christians get stuck on the physical only, rather than considering the spiritual and ministerial nature of being crucified with Christ on our own cross. They think only those literally beheaded like Paul will be in the first resurrection of the blessed. Paul makes it clear that all the dead saints in Christ will rise first, and then all saints remaining alive on earth will be changed with them.

The word used for slaughtered here is primarily religious in nature. It goes back to the use of the sacrificial double-headed axe of old Minoan style. This is also the only verse it is used in the NT. Though all Christians are not physically killed for the sake of the gospel, we are all crucified on our own cross, with our old man and life becoming as lambs for the slaughter. That's where Paul says we endure temptation and die daily to the lust, sins, and trespasses of the world.

 

[Arthur81]

As a last post for awhile, I'll leave with these remarks -

The 70 weeks of Dan. 9:24 are thought to be 490 years and that ends in the 1st century. To separate the 70th from the 69th week by over 2500 years is moronic. Whoever thought of that scheme back in the history of the church... you won't find it? Those who follow that are like those who check the horoscope in the newspapers.... it seems to be the same mental mindset.

Jesus gave several signs of the coming destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. He made it quite clear that within that generation to whom he was speaking, as the REB reads - "Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." Matt 24:34 REB

The Revelation was to "soon take place"... and "the time of fulfilment was near", stated in Rv. 1:1,3; 22: 6, 10. That does not mean the major parts of the book were to be 2000 years after those timings.

All this was timed to happen or begin to happen in the 1st century. The destruction of the temple, the destruction of the Roman Empire and then looking to the end of time, the last day of resurrecion and judgment. Beware the "study Bibles"...

The longer the annotations, the vast verbiage of the denials, are the more suspect when the scriptures are clear on the major points.

The Old Covenant was fulfilled, abolished and we believers are in the New Covenant. To introduce a millennium in the future that is Old Covenant is blasphemy to my mind. It demeans the cross of Christ.

Seekers for truth, do not accept what you hear in the pulpit without question... do not follow TV and Internet 'prophets'. Read from men of God out of the past who have varied views, but are in agreement on the clear words of scripture in areas of prophecy. You can read over 100 commentaires on: Comprehensive Overview of the Bible Commentaries available FREELY on StudyLight.org!

If you are diagnosed with cancer, are you not going to go get a 2nd or 3rd opinion? Why be so foolish as not do the same in spiritual matters?

 

[ewq1938]

There is always one throne of God.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Here scripture speaks of two thrones, one for Christ and one for Christ's Father. Overcomers will share in Christ's throne just as Christ shares in His Fathers throne.


Obviously all overcomers cannot literally sit with Christ in a throne. It's figurative language showing the sharing of authority ie: reigning with Christ is the same as sitting with him on the throne. Same with Christ and his Father. Christ doesn't literally sit with the Father in one throne. Christ has his throne, the Father has his.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is a foreshadow of this same concept...reigning with Christ, which is to share in the throne and what a throne represents which is authority.

 

[Timtofly]

It contradicts everything taught elsewhere in the Bible about the resurrection and the judgment. It contradicts Christ's repeated declarations that the resurrection is at the last day, and the judgment of the righteous at the last day. It contradicts Christ's teaching in Joh_5:28 that the just and unjust are raised at the same time, one resurrection for all that are in their graves.

Why is it that Preterist and Historist get every thing wrong about the first century, and then deny the only thing that happened on the Cross, in the which, they then place that event into the future?

The Cross was the last day resurrection. Even Amil who declare the 70 weeks up around the time of the Cross still miss the fact that the Cross was the last day resurrection.

All of the OT redeemed were resurrected that day. Not some, ALL. The rest of the dead are still waiting to be resurrected. Those in Christ would never taste death again as souls without a physical body. Those in Christ are not dead to be resurrected. Those in Christ alive at the Second Coming are the only dead waiting to be changed out of their filthy "diaper". That is the dead corruptible flesh from Adam we are born with. That body will be left in the dust as the works on earth are all burned up including those dead bodies. The soul is raptured as it receives a new permanent incorruptible physical body.

Yes, the dead are those alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, as well as souls in Sheol. But one is of the heresy of universalism, if they think all will be given life at the GWT judgment. That is not what that verse means.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

They were still not living. They are not resurrected. They are still dead. The dead are still cast into the LOF. The only one's made alive and given eternal life would be those who at that point submit to the Lamb as their only means of Salvation. Which after thousands of years in torment as the bitter and hardened dead, is highly unlikely. If they still reject God, their names will be removed from the Lamb's book of life and they will be cast, still as dead, into the LOF.

So all those who are waiting for a future single day resurrection, will be waiting for all eternity. It is not going to happen. That is one thing in the past, that all can safely proclaim has been fulfilled along with the Old Covenant, those dead were under.

The only resurrection in the future are those souls who are beheaded so as to avoid the mark of the beast, which would net them a one way ticket into the LOF without passing go/GWT.

Those thrones set up are not the GWT. The GWT has been around since creation week. We cannot see it in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, because of spiritual blindness. At the Second Coming, the 6th Seal all spiritual blindness will be removed. All the dead on earth will see where the GWT is and the face of God.

"And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne,"

The 6th Seal is when the GWT will be seen from then on, for over 1,000 years. Then when Jesus hands back creation to God, there will not be anything left except the GWT, and the LOF. For however long it takes, between the OHOE and the NHNE no one is told. Those dead standing before the GWT will not see the NHNE as far as we know, just the LOF that also remains from the same Second Coming event, when it was formed when every thing was burned up. Somehow scientists think that one day the sun will absorb the earth. Perhaps they are slightly correct. The light they call the sun could very well be that newly formed LOF. But it is the new home of Satan and his angels and all the dead since the Flood destroyed those wicked sons of God.

 

[Timtofly]

What does that mean for it to mean what it says? That can't mean that all scripture is literal and straightforward since that is clearly not the case. So, what are you talking about exactly?

Do you take a verse like Acts 17:31 to mean what it says?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This teaches that there is just one judgment day that God has appointed to judge everyone. You believe in more than one judgment day, though, don't you? So much for you accepting scripture to mean what it says.

Nope. The 6th Seal is the day judgment starts, but no verse claims judgment only last for 24 hours.

The 6th Seal is when Jesus sets up the throne and sits in Judgment in Jerusalem and judges the whole world. People are brought from all the nations to stand in judgment. The sheep are given eternal life, and the goats are tossed into the LOF. That is not God on the GWT with dead souls. That is Jesus as King in Jerusalem judging the world. Why? Because God raised Jesus from the dead and will wait until the fulness of the Gentiles is over to place Him as King in Jerusalem. When all 8 billion + souls on earth are accounted for and removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh, the final harvest will be over, and the Millennial Kingdom will commence per the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Ghada]

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

They are sitting down together in the same throne, one at the righthand of the other. Once resurrected from the dead, the Lord is now given to once against sit in the same throne of God as in the beginning as the Word with God.

Desiring to believe something other than the Bible, many times leads to failing in standard grammar and comprehension of simple words. All we need do is ask some non[artisan school kid, if the verse means two separate thrones, or both sitting in the same throne.

And an set down WITH MY FATHER in His throne.

Here scripture speaks of two thrones, one for Christ and one for Christ's Father. Overcomers will share in Christ's throne just as Christ shares in His Fathers throne.

Once again, comprehension is lost. No one shares in another's throne by sitting in one of their own. They can share in rule, but not in throne.

The Father and the Son now share in rule from the same throne, even as God and the Lamb will forever share in rule from the same throne.

Obviously all overcomers cannot literally sit with Christ in a throne.

One at a time they certainly can, because Jesus says so.

It's figurative language showing the sharing of authority ie:

The first one to say God doesn't really mean what He says in plain words, was the serpent.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

There's nothing really sure about dying by disobedience to God. He's just being figurative, not literal.

Each overcomer resurrected unto life, will have time sitting with the Father and the Son in their throne, that they are both set down with together.

reigning with Christ is the same as sitting with him on the throne. Same with Christ and his Father. Christ doesn't literally sit with the Father in one throne. Christ has his throne, the Father has his.

More figurative only, that must reject plain meaning of God's words, as though He can't say what He really means on man's language.

Some people believe God can only figuratively 'approximate' to men what He means, because He's a 'Spirit', as we are flesh and blood.

But then it's the man Christ Jesus doing the talking in His Revelation.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is a foreshadow of this same concept...reigning with Christ, which is to share in the throne and what a throne represents which is authority.

It's sure prophecy of sitting in Their throne, and also sharing in their rule for a thousand years on this earth, and forever on the new earth.

It's not just foreshadowing of something figurative only.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Making unsure prophecy by our own will, only happens when we don't believe the sure prophecy of God spoken by His Son pertaining to His own literal will.

 

[ewq1938]

They are sitting down together in the same throne, one at the righthand of the other.

No, there are two thrones in the passage. Overcomers will sit in Christ's throne and Christ will sit on his Father's throne. This shows reward and an upgrade in where people sit.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

No, there are two thrones in the passage. Overcomers will sit in Christ's throne and Christ will sit on his Father's throne. This shows reward and an upgrade in where people sit.

There is one throne that of God's. All others are seats - the 24 cultic priests (elders) and the high priest (Jesus). (as per a heavenly temple)

Jesus is king because David bows to the one seated beside God. All i's dotted and t's crossed. Beautiful.

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Mark 12
35And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?
36For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
37David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.

 

[ewq1938]

There is one throne that of God's.

No, there are two. "my throne" and "his throne" is two thrones. The Father and the Son have their own thrones.

 

[Mikey-for-sure]

No, there are two. "my throne" and "his throne" is two thrones. The Father and the Son have their own thrones.

I gave the pertinent verses. I believe Ghada concurs with my interpretation. Up to all readers to chose. I leave the last word to you.

 

[ewq1938]

I leave the last word to you.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Here scripture speaks of two thrones, one for Christ and one for Christ's Father. Overcomers will share in Christ's throne just as Christ shares in His Father's throne.

Obviously all overcomers cannot literally sit with Christ in a throne. It's figurative language showing the sharing of authority ie: reigning with Christ is the same as sitting with him on the throne. Same with Christ and his Father. Christ doesn't literally sit with the Father in one throne. Christ has his throne, the Father has his.

 

[Davy]

When I seek to find how a verse fits into some associated teaching of the Scriptures, I wish to know facts in the verse, and only then can I attempt to put it into a fitting 'proof text' series or system of understanding. Some points I see on Rev. 20:4 -

Examining the phrase "souls of them/those" in Rev. 20:4, and where is that phrase found?

"souls of those" in the Bible is only found Rev. 6:9 & 20:4 in YLT, RSV, REB, ESV, NRSV

"souls of them" in the Bible is only found Rev. 6:9 & 20:4 in KJV, RV, ASV, Douay

g5590 psuche g4969 sphazo Rev. 6:9

g5590 psuche g3990 pelekizo in Rev. 20:4

"psuche" is "From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely ..." 1890 Strong's

"pelekizo" is "From a derivative of G4141 (meaning an axe); to chop off (the head), that is, truncate: - behead." 1890 Strong's

"sphazo" is "A primary verb; to butcher (especially an animal for food or in sacrifice) or (generally) to slaughter, or (specifically) to maim (violently): - kill, slay, wound." 1890 Strong's

The phrase "thousand years" is found in the following places, apart from Revelation 20.

"For a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when it is past, or like a watch in the night." Ps 90:4 NRSV

"Even though he should live a thousand years twice over, yet enjoy no good—do not all go to one place?" Eccl 6:6 NRSV

"But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day." 2Pet 3:8 NRSV

Then I look at the word "throne(s)" -

The word "throne(s)" is found 37 times in Revelation, 73% of the occurrences in the NT. They all seem to refer to the throne(s) of God or his own in heaven which is stated explicitly in -

"At once I was in the spirit, and there in heaven stood a throne, with one seated on the throne!" Rev 4:2 NRSV

I find no reference where God or his people in bodily form are sitting on a throne on the earth.

This reign with Christ in v5 is referred to as the "first resurrection", but a "second resurrection" is not in this chapter, but "second death" is, in v14.

In spite of all the difficulties in this passage, I can't ignore the preceding facts in attempting to understand John's words. It seems closer to the facts revealed, that Rev 20:4 is referring to those back in Rev. 6:9 -

"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given; they cried out with a loud voice, “Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?” They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed." Rev 6:9-11 NRSV

That's pretty much doing 'word fallacy'.

When someone carries on a standard conversation with you, do you have to analyze each word they say before you can interpret what they are saying?? NO! of course not!

You instead hear the FLOW of the conversation based on your understanding of the words used in the conversation.

Likewise, to properly understand God's written Word, one MUST KEEP to the FLOW of the Chapter, of what is being said. And just as in our conversations, we may bring up past events, or present events, or even future events, but it's still... a simple conversation keeping to a flow.

Trying to ISOLATE each word is like an animal pit set by the devil.

 

[marks]

Thank you for your scholarly exposition of the texts under consideration. It certainly adds depth to a serious discussion among believers, and prompts one to continue with replies!

Personally, I'm more in the habit of accepting the plain sayings of the Bible, rather than some long convoluted reasoning of how the Bible doesn't say what it says.

OK, find a way that the 1000 years isn't 1000 years, and so forth, many do! Not me.

Much love!

 

[Ghada]

No, there are two thrones in the passage. Overcomers will sit in Christ's throne and Christ will sit on his Father's throne. This shows reward and an upgrade in where people sit.

This is true enough, We only differ on there being two different thrones in heaven for Father and Son today. Their eternal throne on the the new earth will also be the same for God and the Lamb.

Each resurrected overcomer will have their seat with Father and Son on their throne with them. How long isn't so important, since one day with Them is as a thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

This is true enough, We only differ on there being two different thrones in heaven for Father and Son today. Their eternal throne on the the new earth will also be the same for God and the Lamb.

I know about that change.

 

[strepho]

Revelation chapter 29;4. These are Christian people. They had tribulation in life and overcome it. They repent, and were steadfast.
Others are those who didn't worship antichrist in the flesh. These Christian people have seal of God.
Proverbs chapter 1. Many people are not sincere and diligent about God. They didn't repent and conform to God's standard. This group is in sheol.

 

[Ghada]

I know about that change.

Me too. From heaven to the new earth, with New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven to the new earth.

 

[Davy]

This is true enough, We only differ on there being two different thrones in heaven for Father and Son today. Their eternal throne on the the new earth will also be the same for God and the Lamb.

Each resurrected overcomer will have their seat with Father and Son on their throne with them. How long isn't so important, since one day with Them is as a thousand years.

You've got a bit of philosophical speculation there attempted to be turned into literal events.

Christ's throne He comes to inherit is David's throne (Luke 1:32). Question: was David's throne in Heaven, or was it an earthly throne?

Right now, in Heaven, Lord Jesus is sitting on the right hand of The Father's throne, still expecting until all His enemies are made His footstool (Mark 16:19; Colossians 3:1; 1 Cor.15:23-28; etc.).

So for the coming "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect, His throne will be the earthly throne of David. And the idea that He said we would sit with Him in His throne is an 'expression' ONLY, of ruling with Him with the promised "rod of iron" of Psalms 2 and Revelation 2:26-27.

As for the Throne in the NHNE time, yes, both The Father and The Son together, on earth. The Heavenly dimension is coming here, to earth.

 

[Ghada]

You've got a bit of philosophical speculation there attempted to be turned into literal events.

Actually, it's the other way around. Man's vain philosophies try to turn the literal things of the Bible into more 'spiritual' things like fables.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Christ's throne He comes to inherit is David's throne (Luke 1:32). Question: was David's throne in Heaven, or was it an earthly throne?

Ah, well, so why didn't you say so in the first place? Sure, He will sit with His glory on David's throne on earth in Jerusalem. He will inherit and rule all nations with the Shepherd's right scepter and rod of iron.

And the idea that He said we would sit with Him in His throne is an 'expression' ONLY,

I don't symbolize what I don't want to believe, into something else.

of ruling with Him with the promised "rod of iron" of Psalms 2 and Revelation 2:26-27.

Although this is an interesting take on Rev 3:21, that I had not considered before, it's not accurate. The words themselves show it is the throne of the Father. The Father's throne. Also it is the throne given Jesus that He is now set in. Not one later on earth.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He am now set in the Father's throne.

This is what happens if we begin to play with some words of the Bible and symbolize their literalcy away. We begin to stop taking other words of the Bible literally, if we don't agree with them.

As for the Throne in the NHNE time, yes, both The Father and The Son together, on earth. The Heavenly dimension is coming here, to earth.

True, His kingdom of heaven will come with Him on earth, to do the will of the Father, when He comes a second time to rule them of all the earth.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

This is not just seeking the kingdom of heaven and the will of God done in our own lives today, but is sure prophecy of the Lord's kingdom stablished over all the earth during His millennium reign.