Faith: True and False

[GracePeace]

Are you God's child?

Much love!

Apparently

 

[GracePeace]

Stop twisting my words.

Nevermind. I'm no longer interested.

Much love!

Stop twisting Scripture. Lol

 

[Johann]

It's not whether the sin is "OK", but, yeah, you're essentially saying that when you deny that the passage deals with eternal life, that only "chastening" will result.

The core of Paul's message is Christ. He insists that the most important topic he discussed with these Christians was the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1Co_15:3-8). When he sums up the essence of his message, it is "Christ crucified" (1Co_1:23). Paul likes to show how the cross-- which seems to be evidence of weakness and appears so foolish to many-- is really evidence of great power (1Co_1:18) and wisdom (1Co_2:6-8; 1co 1:18 -2:16; 1Co_3:18-20; 1Co_8:1-3).

Background: It appears that after Paul established the church in Corinth about AD 50 and left them that he wrote the church a letter which has not been preserved by the Holy Spirit. In turn, Paul received disturbing news about the disciples at Corinth along with a letter from them about a number of questions they wanted him to answer about the Christian life.

The city of Corinth was as wicked as any city today and like so many churches now the Corinthian church had allowed the world to enter. One writer wrote of them saying:

"They were carnal, immature, immoral, selfish, proud, heretical, and divisive. They were enamored with human philosophy. They identified with little cliques which followed different spiritual leaders. They tolerated sin, fornication, and incest. They took each other to court, abused God's intended role for men and women, and were gluttonous and drunken at the Lord's Supper. They allowed pagan worship ritual to be brought into their own worship, perverted and abused spiritual gifts, and [didn't understand]... the resurrection. They had managed to drag into the church all the old practices of the world. They had not made a clear distinction between the holy and the profane!"

With so many problems at Corinth the letter serves to show us how a church can deal with such problems in the lives of Christians today. It is therefore, an important practical letter for churches in our time.

Better?

 

[GracePeace]

The core of Paul's message is Christ. He insists that the most important topic he discussed with these Christians was the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1Co_15:3-8). When he sums up the essence of his message, it is "Christ crucified" (1Co_1:23). Paul likes to show how the cross-- which seems to be evidence of weakness and appears so foolish to many-- is really evidence of great power (1Co_1:18) and wisdom (1Co_2:6-8; 1co 1:18 -2:16; 1Co_3:18-20; 1Co_8:1-3).

Background: It appears that after Paul established the church in Corinth about AD 50 and left them that he wrote the church a letter which has not been preserved by the Holy Spirit. In turn, Paul received disturbing news about the disciples at Corinth along with a letter from them about a number of questions they wanted him to answer about the Christian life.

The city of Corinth was as wicked as any city today and like so many churches now the Corinthian church had allowed the world to enter. One writer wrote of them saying:

"They were carnal, immature, immoral, selfish, proud, heretical, and divisive. They were enamored with human philosophy. They identified with little cliques which followed different spiritual leaders. They tolerated sin, fornication, and incest. They took each other to court, abused God's intended role for men and women, and were gluttonous and drunken at the Lord's Supper. They allowed pagan worship ritual to be brought into their own worship, perverted and abused spiritual gifts, and [didn't understand]... the resurrection. They had managed to drag into the church all the old practices of the world. They had not made a clear distinction between the holy and the profane!"

With so many problems at Corinth the letter serves to show us how a church can deal with such problems in the lives of Christians today. It is therefore, an important practical letter for churches in our time.

Better?

Irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[Johann]

Irrelevant. This has nothing to do with the discussion.

Guess you can have a discussion all with your lonesome self.
J.

 

[GracePeace]

Guess you can have a discussion all with your lonesome self.
J.

You copy - pasted irrelevant info.

The OP is about true and false faith existing in Scripture, and the tangential you were replying to was on 1 Co 10, and its warning. Not sure why it's my job to point the obvious out to you or any other user.

 

[Johann]

You copy - pasted irrelevant info.

The OP is about true and false faith existing in Scripture, and the tangential you were replying to was on 1 Co 10, and its warning. Not sure why it's my job to point the obvious out to you or any other user.

Following your conversation with @marks I am not interested in what you want to discuss.
Shalom Achi.
J.

 

[GracePeace]

Following your conversation with @marks I am not interested in what you want to discuss.
Shalom Achi.
J.

Sounds good.

 

[Traveler]

We are currently living in the time of the gentiles. This is where God, through Christ is reaching out to the gentiles. At the rapture the time of the gentiles or age of grace ends and all returns back to the old Mosaic laws. Hence the need to rebuild the third temple. This is where the Jews go through the seven years tribulation before their redemption as well. Faith in Christ and his shed blood is in both cases the only way to be reconciled with God fully. The sacrifices of animals of old simply paid the price for sins committed over a limited time and only applied to those under the law who had been circumcised in accordance with the law.

 

[GracePeace]

We are currently living in the time of the gentiles. This is where God, through Christ is reaching out to the gentiles. At the rapture the time of the gentiles or age of grace ends and all returns back to the old Mosaic laws. This is where the Jews go through the seven years tribulation before their redemption as well. Faith in Christ and his shed blood is in both cases the only way to be reconciled with God fully. The sacrifices of animals of old simply paid the price for sins committed over a limited time and only applied to those under the law who had been circumcised in accordance with the law.

Off-topic/irrelevant.
Also wrong, but that discussion is not happening on this thread.

 

[Traveler]

Off-topic/irrelevant.
Also wrong, but that discussion is not happening on this thread.

It is on topic but you do not seem to grasp it.

 

[GracePeace]

Stop twisting my words.

Nevermind. I'm no longer interested.

Much love!

Irrespectively, I didn't want you to miss this point in the OP that you could use for your own misunderstanding/misrepresentation about James 2--what the thread was actually supposed to be about:

Many assert James 2 (wherein James calls his Christian audience (he knows they're believers, or else he wouldn't call them "adulteresses against God"--unbelievers who sin are not being "adulterous" to God, since they're not "married" to God) to repent of sin, and to not only have faith, but to also walk in faith (as Paul also says, "if we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit"), and discusses faith that is complete (with works) and incomplete (without works), as Paul warns "the widow who lives in wanton pleasure is dead even while she lives", so we can know the opposite of Christians walking in faith, walking after the Spirit, is Christians living for pleasure, walking after the flesh, leading to death and not life, and sin, which Christians can commit, is pleasure-based) refers to "true" and "false" faith.

I find it distasteful when, in my opinion, people ignore the context, play games, do mental gymnastics, to try to make it fit in to a "faith alone" framework (it obviously doesn't) by claiming James is referring to "true" and "false" faith, and not to complete and incomplete faith.

Having said that, I find it interesting that we do seem to find, in John's Gospel, this concept of "true" and "false" faith.

John 6
14Therefore when the people saw the sign which He had performed, they said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."
15So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone.
...
22The next day the crowd that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other small boat there, except one, and that Jesus had not entered with His disciples into the boat, but that His disciples had gone away alone. 23There came other small boats from Tiberias near to the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor His disciples, they themselves got into the small boats, and came to Capernaum seeking Jesus. 25When they found Him on the other side of the sea, they said to Him, “Rabbi, when did You get here?”
26Jesus answered them and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled.

So, clearly, though the text says they "believed", this appears to be a categorically invalid "belief", because they "believed", but they "believed" in a "Jesus" that didn't really exist--what they "believed" in was a "Jesus" of their own, and thought that the real Jesus would be the fulfillment of their own "Prophet Who is to come into the world" concepts.

John 8
30As He spoke these things, many came to believe in Him.
31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

We know how this conversation ends--Jesus says their father is the devil--so, though the text says they "believed", their "belief" was not a valid "belief", because their "belief" was not truly in Christ, but it was in a figment of their own imagination that excluded, was antithetical to, the teachings of the true Christ.

I wouldn't want to hide the truth that I see in Scripture, so I thought it was interesting that, though James 2 obviously isn't talking about this, the concept does seem to exist in Scripture. I like to challenge myself, so, though I know it could be used as "ammunition" against my views, I thought it would be interesting to see what happened if I shared it. "He who waters others will himself be watered"--maybe by helping others, I, myself, will be helped, will be given more understanding.

 

[GracePeace]

It is on topic but you do not seem to grasp it.

The thread is called "Faith: 'True' and 'False'", and a tangential I dealt with was the possibility of Christians "losing" salvation.

The thread is not about "the definition of faith"--no one asked for that, but you "faulted" the discussion as if someone were discussing that--another off-topic comment of yours.

Yeah, I don't see how you're on topic.

 

[Johann]

The thread is called "Faith: 'True' and 'False'", and a tangential I dealt with was the possibility of Christians "losing" salvation.

The thread is not about "the definition of faith"--no one asked for that, but you "faulted" the discussion as if someone were discussing that--another off-topic comment of yours.

Yeah, I don't see how you're on topic.

The second misinterpretation is that James is describing a non-Christian or a person who has made a false confession

That when someone confesses Christ, they will always have works

And if they lack works, it must mean they lack true faith

Therefore, can that “faith” save him?

But this second view is equally wrong, based on the context of James

James hasn’t been discussing true faith vs. false faith

James has been discussing the failure of believers to live according to the royal law

And in the immediately preceding verses, James introduced the subject of the judgment fire that will test each believer’s work

So in that context James is asking if a faith that has no works will save a believer

He’s not discussing unbelievers facing the judgment fires of hell…that’s the wrong context

James is talking about a believer facing the judgment fire of the Bema Seat, the Judgment Seat of Christ (e.g., 1 Corinthians 3)

So when James asks can that faith “save him,” he’s asking if a faith lived without works will save the believer when he stands at the fiery Judgment Seat of Christ

This is the judgment fire that tests our work and reveals our reward, as Paul described

And of course a believer who enters that moment without works should not expect to be “saved” from that judgment

On the contrary, for that Christian the judgment seat of Christ will be a terrifying experience as the writer of Hebrews says

Such a believer has lived a life of stubborn disobedience to the Spirit’s call

He has transgressed the Royal Law, the Law of Liberty

And he will not be saved from the consequences of those choices

He will face a merciless judgment, as James says

Then James offers a particularly convicting example to consider

He asks if a Christian expresses concern for a fellow believer who is poor and in need, but then does nothing material to help address the believer’s needs

Of what use is that response?

The word “use” is again the Greek word for profit or advantage

So James asks how can that unhelpful response profit anyone?

It certainly doesn’t profit the needy believer, who is still without the food and clothing they need

And it doesn’t profit the believer himself, who failed to perform a work of mercy and will not receive Christ’s approval at the judgment moment

Remember, meeting fellow believers’ needs is an act of mercy in itself

So our failure to act is a failure to show mercy in these circumstances

And it will result in the Lord refraining from showing us mercy at the judgment

And our failures will not profit us

Finally, James makes his most provocative statement

Faith without works is dead, being by itself

By “dead,” James means it is lifeless, without benefit to men or God or even to the believer himself

It is dead in the same way that a campfire can appear dead

It’s not actually gone, since there may still be hot embers deep in the ashes

But with the flame having gone out, it appears lifeless and it offers little value to anyone unless and until the coals are stoked aflame again

We have plenty to think about in these verses

We should examine ourselves in light of these scriptures

First, are we thinking about our actions and priorities with an eye toward our judgment moment?

Do we consider how we are impacting that moment when we make decisions about where to spend our time or money or talents?

Do we remember the royal law as we consider our actions at work and in the home or in the Body of Christ?

Are we ready to meet the Lord right now? Or do we have some work to do to show the Lord that our faith is not a dead faith, one that profits no one?

Let’s recommit to living our faith outwardly, intending to show the love of Christ and thereby have much to profit from.

James - Lesson 2B | Verse By Verse Ministry International

Chapter 2:9-17

versebyverseministry.org

 

[Johann]

CONTEXTUAL INSIGHTS INTO JAMES 2:14-26

This section of James has caused major theological controversy. This comes not so much from the passage, contextually understood, but from our theological presuppositions and dogmatic systems of proof-texted, western theology.

James and Paul do not contradict, but complement one another. The seeming contradiction comes from a misunderstanding of (1) the purpose; (2) the recipients; and (3) definitions of key words (i.e., faith, works) of the NT books of Romans and James.
Paul is writing to Jews who believe that they are right with God on the basis of (1) their race (nationality) and (2) their keeping the law of Moses (legalism). Paul speaks of entering into the Christian life. He uses Abraham's life as an OT example of being declared right with God before circumcision and before the Mosaic Law (cf. Gen. 15:6), based solely on God's initiating grace and the appropriate faith response (cf. Rom. 4:3; Gal. 3:6).

James is writing to church people who are making Christianity a creed instead of a lifestyle (antinomians or intellectualists, Jewish Gnostics).

These folks are asserting orthodoxy as the basis for their assurance of salvation. The books of James and 1 John assert that daily love in action is not an option for Christians, but is the evidence of their being Christians. For James, "works" are not Jewish rules, but love in action (cf. 1 Corinthians 13).

Paul and James are not giving two ways of salvation, but two aspects of one salvation. Paul speaks of the beginning of Abraham's walk of faith (cf. Genesis 15), and James speaks of its ongoing characteristics (birth of Isaac versus offering of Isaac, cf. Genesis 22).
It is not "faith or works" but "faith and works." Not only is faith without works dead, but works without faith is also dead (cf. Matt. 7:21-23; John 15:1-6). Being a carnal, weak, baby Christian is possible (cf. 1 Cor. 3:1-3, 10-15; Heb. 5:11-14), but it is the exception, not the norm.
John Calvin said "faith alone justifies but the faith which justifies is not alone."

This section functions as an encouragement to active faith. In a sense it is a passage on assurance— not assurance as a doctrine, but as a lifestyle. Assurance is surely a biblical truth, but only in connection with daily Christlikeness, not systematic theology! We are saved to serve. Service is the evidence of salvation. It is never the means, but it is the goal, the fruit (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 and 10). This truth is much needed in our day of
easy believism
assurance as a denominational theological tenet (usually given as a dogmatic statement at the beginning of the Christian life)

The entire book of James deals with the practical issue of how believers use their resources (physical and spiritual) on behalf of the Kingdom. Allocation of physical resources reveals the heart!

This is an important theological summary statement (cf. vv. 20 and 26). In his Study Guide Commentary on James, Curtis Vaughan sees these three summary statements as constituting the main outline:
genuine faith is not an empty claim (vv. 14-17)
genuine faith is not mere acceptance of a creed (vv. 18-20)
genuine faith is faith that produces an obedient life (vv. 21-26, p. 56)
Utley-IF you are interested.

 

[GracePeace]

The second misinterpretation is that James is describing a non-Christian or a person who has made a false confession

That when someone confesses Christ, they will always have works

And if they lack works, it must mean they lack true faith

Therefore, can that “faith” save him?

But this second view is equally wrong, based on the context of James

James hasn’t been discussing true faith vs. false faith

James has been discussing the failure of believers to live according to the royal law

And in the immediately preceding verses, James introduced the subject of the judgment fire that will test each believer’s work

So in that context James is asking if a faith that has no works will save a believer

He’s not discussing unbelievers facing the judgment fires of hell…that’s the wrong context

James is talking about a believer facing the judgment fire of the Bema Seat, the Judgment Seat of Christ (e.g., 1 Corinthians 3)

So when James asks can that faith “save him,” he’s asking if a faith lived without works will save the believer when he stands at the fiery Judgment Seat of Christ

This is the judgment fire that tests our work and reveals our reward, as Paul described

And of course a believer who enters that moment without works should not expect to be “saved” from that judgment

On the contrary, for that Christian the judgment seat of Christ will be a terrifying experience as the writer of Hebrews says

Such a believer has lived a life of stubborn disobedience to the Spirit’s call

He has transgressed the Royal Law, the Law of Liberty

And he will not be saved from the consequences of those choices

He will face a merciless judgment, as James says

Then James offers a particularly convicting example to consider

He asks if a Christian expresses concern for a fellow believer who is poor and in need, but then does nothing material to help address the believer’s needs

Of what use is that response?

The word “use” is again the Greek word for profit or advantage

So James asks how can that unhelpful response profit anyone?

It certainly doesn’t profit the needy believer, who is still without the food and clothing they need

And it doesn’t profit the believer himself, who failed to perform a work of mercy and will not receive Christ’s approval at the judgment moment

Remember, meeting fellow believers’ needs is an act of mercy in itself

So our failure to act is a failure to show mercy in these circumstances

And it will result in the Lord refraining from showing us mercy at the judgment

And our failures will not profit us

Finally, James makes his most provocative statement

Faith without works is dead, being by itself

By “dead,” James means it is lifeless, without benefit to men or God or even to the believer himself

It is dead in the same way that a campfire can appear dead

It’s not actually gone, since there may still be hot embers deep in the ashes

But with the flame having gone out, it appears lifeless and it offers little value to anyone unless and until the coals are stoked aflame again

We have plenty to think about in these verses

We should examine ourselves in light of these scriptures

First, are we thinking about our actions and priorities with an eye toward our judgment moment?

Do we consider how we are impacting that moment when we make decisions about where to spend our time or money or talents?

Do we remember the royal law as we consider our actions at work and in the home or in the Body of Christ?

Are we ready to meet the Lord right now? Or do we have some work to do to show the Lord that our faith is not a dead faith, one that profits no one?

Let’s recommit to living our faith outwardly, intending to show the love of Christ and thereby have much to profit from.

James - Lesson 2B | Verse By Verse Ministry International

Chapter 2:9-17

versebyverseministry.org

"Misinterpretation"? Are you saying you think I "misinterpreted" James?

 

[GracePeace]

CONTEXTUAL INSIGHTS INTO JAMES 2:14-26

This section of James has caused major theological controversy. This comes not so much from the passage, contextually understood, but from our theological presuppositions and dogmatic systems of proof-texted, western theology.

James and Paul do not contradict, but complement one another. The seeming contradiction comes from a misunderstanding of (1) the purpose; (2) the recipients; and (3) definitions of key words (i.e., faith, works) of the NT books of Romans and James.
Paul is writing to Jews who believe that they are right with God on the basis of (1) their race (nationality) and (2) their keeping the law of Moses (legalism). Paul speaks of entering into the Christian life. He uses Abraham's life as an OT example of being declared right with God before circumcision and before the Mosaic Law (cf. Gen. 15:6), based solely on God's initiating grace and the appropriate faith response (cf. Rom. 4:3; Gal. 3:6).

James is writing to church people who are making Christianity a creed instead of a lifestyle (antinomians or intellectualists, Jewish Gnostics).

These folks are asserting orthodoxy as the basis for their assurance of salvation. The books of James and 1 John assert that daily love in action is not an option for Christians, but is the evidence of their being Christians. For James, "works" are not Jewish rules, but love in action (cf. 1 Corinthians 13).

Paul and James are not giving two ways of salvation, but two aspects of one salvation. Paul speaks of the beginning of Abraham's walk of faith (cf. Genesis 15), and James speaks of its ongoing characteristics (birth of Isaac versus offering of Isaac, cf. Genesis 22).
It is not "faith or works" but "faith and works." Not only is faith without works dead, but works without faith is also dead (cf. Matt. 7:21-23; John 15:1-6). Being a carnal, weak, baby Christian is possible (cf. 1 Cor. 3:1-3, 10-15; Heb. 5:11-14), but it is the exception, not the norm.
John Calvin said "faith alone justifies but the faith which justifies is not alone."

This section functions as an encouragement to active faith. In a sense it is a passage on assurance— not assurance as a doctrine, but as a lifestyle. Assurance is surely a biblical truth, but only in connection with daily Christlikeness, not systematic theology! We are saved to serve. Service is the evidence of salvation. It is never the means, but it is the goal, the fruit (cf. Eph. 2:8-9 and 10). This truth is much needed in our day of
easy believism
assurance as a denominational theological tenet (usually given as a dogmatic statement at the beginning of the Christian life)

The entire book of James deals with the practical issue of how believers use their resources (physical and spiritual) on behalf of the Kingdom. Allocation of physical resources reveals the heart!

This is an important theological summary statement (cf. vv. 20 and 26). In his Study Guide Commentary on James, Curtis Vaughan sees these three summary statements as constituting the main outline:
genuine faith is not an empty claim (vv. 14-17)
genuine faith is not mere acceptance of a creed (vv. 18-20)
genuine faith is faith that produces an obedient life (vv. 21-26, p. 56)
Utley-IF you are interested.

Do you know that the OP proceeds to cite Scripture that seems to teach the existence of both "true" and "false" faith?

 

[Johann]

"Misinterpretation"? Are you saying you think I "misinterpreted" James?

Poor reading comprehension-I am ON topic now and you are deflecting.

 

[GracePeace]

Poor reading comprehension-I am ON topic now and you are deflecting.

Lol I don't even know what your point is--it looks like you just copy-pasted some information someone else produced (and the two different copy-pastes you did seem to be presenting to contradictory views of the passage)--so how could I try to "deflect" it? Lol

So... were you saying I "misinterpreted" James, since you wrote that (unless it was just "vestigial" from your copy-paste, and you had no intention of saying that to me) or...?

This is bizarre.

 

[Johann]

Do you know that the OP proceeds to cite Scripture that seems to teach the existence of both "true" and "false" faith?

Jas 2:19 So you're impressed with yourselves that with your emunah you can recite the kri'at Shema, nu? O you do so well...why, even the shedim have your da'as and emunah! But they shudder! [DEVARIM 6:4]
Jas 2:20 Are you willing to have da'as, O hollow man, that Emunah unharnessed to Ma'asim, stands idle?

the: Mat_8:29; Mar_1:24, Mar_5:7; Luk_4:34; Act_16:17, Act_19:15, Act_24:25; Jud_1:6; Rev_20:2-3, Rev_20:10

I would say-intellectual head gnosis, nothing to do with the Lev. Where it really matters.