Faithful and Just to Forgive . . .

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marks

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"But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

For a long time I understood this verse to be teaching God is righteous to forgive because our sins are paid for . . .

Psalm 129
1 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth, may Israel now say:
2 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth: yet they have not prevailed against me.
3 The plowers plowed upon my back: they made long their furrows.
4 The Lord is righteous: he hath cut asunder the cords of the wicked.

He has cut the cords of the wicked because He is righteous.

They afflicted me! He has cut their cords.

Much love!
 
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CharismaticLady

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For a long time I understood this verse to be teaching God is righteous to forgive because our sins are paid for . . .

Are you talking about 'future' sins are automatically cleansed because they've been paid for? Does a true Christian commit murder, adultery, stealing, etc. and just do as they please?
 
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marks

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Are you talking about 'future' sins are automatically cleansed because they've been paid for? Does a true Christian commit murder, adultery, stealing, etc. and just do as they please?
There is a different side of this I'm looking at, not so much that they are paid for, though the death that they required was given on my behalf.

More like . . .

I did not commit "original sin", that was Adam's doing.
Adam's sin brought the corruption of sin into humanity.
I, being part of humanity, do not escape that.
Being born corrupted by original sin, I inevitably add to Adam's sin my own sin.
And in this I am dead in sin.

There's a sense in which this isn't my fault. It wasn't anything I did that caused me to be born corrupted and dead sin. I never really had a chance!

God is Just, and has relieved the consequences of that which was not my fault. Through faith in Christ, of course!

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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There is a different side of this I'm looking at, not so much that they are paid for, though the death that they required was given on my behalf.

More like . . .

I did not commit "original sin", that was Adam's doing.
Adam's sin brought the corruption of sin into humanity.
I, being part of humanity, do not escape that.
Being born corrupted by original sin, I inevitably add to Adam's sin my own sin.
And in this I am dead in sin.

There's a sense in which this isn't my fault. It wasn't anything I did that caused me to be born corrupted and dead sin. I never really had a chance!

God is Just, and has relieved the consequences of that which was not my fault. Through faith in Christ, of course!

Much love!

Let me ask you what you believe the "gift" is in this Romans 5 passage about Adam's sin, and what that gift does for us in this life? Knowing what this gift is can change one's theology.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
 

marks

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Let me ask you what you believe the "gift" is in this Romans 5 passage about Adam's sin, and what that gift does for us in this life? Knowing what this gift is can change one's theology.

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
While I don't find this clearly defined in the Bible, my thoughts on this are . . .

The free gift that came to all men resulting in "justification of life", I think this is that Jesus carried away the sin of the world, and answers the question, why didn't Adam physically die in the day he ate the fruit?

Judgment came to all through Adam, but Judgment is in abeyance while mercy and grace are offered through Jesus.

How do you answer this question?

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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While I don't find this clearly defined in the Bible, my thoughts on this are . . .

The free gift that came to all men resulting in "justification of life", I think this is that Jesus carried away the sin of the world, and answers the question, why didn't Adam physically die in the day he ate the fruit?

Judgment came to all through Adam, but Judgment is in abeyance while mercy and grace are offered through Jesus.

How do you answer this question?

Much love!

But mercy and grace are not so that when we sin there is no punishment. In my opinion that is the theology that needs tweaking. It is true Christians will not receive punishment, but it isn't because the blood of Jesus is like some invisibility cloak that covers us while we continue to sin.

Just so I understand you clearly, (before my answer on the gift), is what I just wrote what you believe - or correct what I have wrong.
 

marks

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But mercy and grace are not so that when we sin there is no punishment. In my opinion that is the theology that needs tweaking. It is true Christians will not receive punishment, but it isn't because the blood of Jesus is like some invisibility cloak that covers us while we continue to sin.
Not an invisibility cloak, but the power of a resurrected life.

I know we've talked about this before.

Faith brings rebirth into holiness and righteousness, and if I am holy and righteous this will increasingly dominate my life.

This is why I like to bring out the difference between atonement and rebirth. Not covered . . . sin is removed.

Even so, grace and mercy ARE also that if we do sin, we are not condemned. It is by virtue of a new life in which the deeds of the old man are not imputed to the new man, and the new man is free from the power of sin and death that rules the old man.

Much love!
 

Helen

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For a long time I understood this verse to be teaching God is righteous to forgive because our sins are paid for . . .

And ? So Mark...how do you see it now. :)
 

CharismaticLady

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Not an invisibility cloak, but the power of a resurrected life.

I know we've talked about this before.

Faith brings rebirth into holiness and righteousness, and if I am holy and righteous this will increasingly dominate my life.

This is why I like to bring out the difference between atonement and rebirth. Not covered . . . sin is removed.

Even so, grace and mercy ARE also that if we do sin, we are not condemned. It is by virtue of a new life in which the deeds of the old man are not imputed to the new man, and the new man is free from the power of sin and death that rules the old man.

Much love!

Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

The Spirit makes all the difference in the world. It is He that makes us born again. After being born again, it is He that kills the desire to sin in the first place because of the new nature, so there is no committing willful sins in the "present and future" which is part of the nonscriptural theology of the invisibility cloak people.

In John 8:34-36 Jesus says that he who sins is a slave to sin (and slaves are not 'family' therefore will not be in God's house forever.) Then Jesus says but he who the Son makes free (from sin) is free indeed. Many believe Jesus only makes us free from the law, so grace covers our sins. No. Freedom from sin makes the law unnecessary, for it showed us our sin. And this is the life of a Christian in this body, not in the immortal body. The Spirit helps us put to death the lusts of the flesh, for no one who lives in the flesh will inherit the kingdom of God.

The whole point of Jesus coming to die for us was to reconcile us to God. God hates sin. It is what separated us in the first place with Adam's first willful sin. 1 John 3:5 "Jesus was manifest to take away our sin, and in him there is no sin." I'm glad to see you agree, and are not part of the invisibility cloak doctrine. But what I still don't see in your doctrine is any emphasis on the Spirit. The Spirit is the "seed of the Father" in 1 John 3:9 and why a Christian does not commit willful sin (known sin you go ahead and commit in spite of God's will. That is rebellion.) In fact, that is what chapter 3 is all about - known sins of lawlessness. If a Christian stumbles and commits a willful sin, they MUST repent to be cleansed. It is not automatic. Jesus is not our Advocate for willful sins, only unknown sins that make us less than perfect, called trespasses. As long as we walk in the Spirit, those trespasses are automatically cleansed. But there is a condition. We must forgive others who trespass against us. Matthew 6:14-15

Therefore, if God has cleansed us of all sin to be worthy in God's sight, and gives us His Spirit to empower us to not commit willful sins in the present and future; and if we walk in the Spirit and forgive each other their trespasses against us, we are sinless and pleasing in His sight. Basically, go to bed each night with a clear conscience, and never go against your conscience in the first place. 1 John 3:18-24

1 John 1:9 is to become a Christian and given the Spirit so you belong to Christ. It is not to have to cleanse daily sins as invisibility cloak people believe. A true Spirit-filled Christian doesn't ever commit a sin that sticks.
 
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The wind

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"But if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

For a long time I understood this verse to be teaching God is righteous to forgive because our sins are paid for . . .

Psalm 129
1 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth, may Israel now say:
2 Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth: yet they have not prevailed against me.
3 The plowers plowed upon my back: they made long their furrows.
4 The Lord is righteous: he hath cut asunder the cords of the wicked.

He has cut the cords of the wicked because He is righteous.

They afflicted me! He has cut their cords.

Much love!


1 John 1:9 as you read it in the King James Bible is referring to what you read in Romans 10 in reference to calling on the name of the Lord Jesus. Which was typically done while believers were being baptized.
 

CharismaticLady

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1 John 1:9 as you read it in the King James Bible is referring to what you read in Romans 10 in reference to calling on the name of the Lord Jesus. Which was typically done while believers were being baptized.

In other words to become a Christian.
 

marks

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1 John 1:9 is to become a Christian and given the Spirit so you belong to Christ. It is not to have to cleanse daily sins as invisibility cloak people believe. A true Spirit-filled Christian doesn't ever commit a sin that sticks.

1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

In this passage, "cleanses" us is a present tense active voice verb, which means Jesus' blood is cleansing us now of sin.

I pay close attention to where God says "sin" and "sins". I see "sins" as the collection of sinful acts commited, while I see "sin" as our sinfulness, the propensity to commit sins.

Jesus' blood is cleansing me of my sinfulness.

I live in sinful flesh, but Jesus keeps me clean.

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

In this passage, "cleanses" us is a present tense active voice verb, which means Jesus' blood is cleansing us now of sin.

I pay close attention to where God says "sin" and "sins". I see "sins" as the collection of sinful acts commited, while I see "sin" as our sinfulness, the propensity to commit sins.

Jesus' blood is cleansing me of my sinfulness.

I live in sinful flesh, but Jesus keeps me clean.

Much love!

Hi Mark. I know we've gone over this many times, but we have so many things in common, I forget what we don't understand in the same way. But here is one: "I live in sinful flesh, but Jesus keeps me clean." Romans 8:9 says we are NOT in the flesh while walking in the Spirit, so these are not sins of the flesh of Galatians 5:19-21. Those are sins unto death and prevent us from inheriting the Kingdom of God. Knowing the difference is so important, I will go over this with you for as long as it takes. You are important to me. Get the lump doctrine of sin is sin out of your head. No they are not to God. 1 John 5:16-17; Numbers 15:22-36, Leviticus 5:15.

Yes, 1 John 1:7 does imply that even though we walk in the light/Spirit we are not perfect. But you have to discern what type of sins are being cleansed while walking in the Spirit. It is NOT 1 John 3:4 sins of lawlessness. Those are willful sins unto death and are of Satan. So the type of sin in 1 John 1:7 are unknown sins called trespasses (Leviticus 5:15) that as we reconcile with each other over trespasses we forgive each other (Matthew 6:14-15) "we have fellowship with one another" and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from those sins (NOT all types of sin; just what we commit after Jesus has taken away our carnal flesh's sins and the desire to commit them). The key is the reconciliation with one another, while sins of lawlessness are against God's laws and are major sins committed in rebellion against God.. Also trespasses are not sins unto death. These are cleansed by our Advocate. Jesus is not our Advocate for sins willfully committed against God that would require repentance. 1 John 2:1 says nothing about repentance.
 
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The wind

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1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

In this passage, "cleanses" us is a present tense active voice verb, which means Jesus' blood is cleansing us now of sin.

I pay close attention to where God says "sin" and "sins". I see "sins" as the collection of sinful acts commited, while I see "sin" as our sinfulness, the propensity to commit sins.

Jesus' blood is cleansing me of my sinfulness.

I live in sinful flesh, but Jesus keeps me clean.

Much love!
If we say we have fellowship with him and walk in the Flesh, we lie, and do not believe: but if we walk in the Spirit as he is in the Spirit, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanses us from all sin. Which is to say, cleanses us from the Flesh: this is the circumcision that happens at baptism.
 
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marks

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Hi Mark. I know we've gone over this many times, but we have so many things in common, I forget what we don't understand in the same way. But here is one: "I live in sinful flesh, but Jesus keeps me clean." Romans 8:9 says we are NOT in the flesh while walking in the Spirit, so these are not sins of the flesh of Galatians 5:19-21. Those are sins unto death and prevent us from inheriting the Kingdom of God. Knowing the difference is so important, I will go over this with you for as long as it takes. You are important to me. Get the lump doctrine of sin is sin out of your head. No they are not to God. 1 John 5:16-17; Numbers 15:22-36, Leviticus 5:15.

Yes, 1 John 1:7 does imply that even though we walk in the light/Spirit we are not perfect. But you have to discern what type of sins are being cleansed while walking in the Spirit. It is NOT 1 John 3:4 sins of lawlessness. Those are willful sins unto death and are of Satan. So the type of sin in 1 John 1:7 are unknown sins called trespasses (Leviticus 5:15) that as we reconcile with each other over trespasses we forgive each other (Matthew 6:14-15) "we have fellowship with one another" and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from those sins (NOT all types of sin; just what we commit after Jesus has taken away our carnal flesh's sins and the desire to commit them). The key is the reconciliation with one another, while sins of lawlessness are against God's laws and are major sins committed in rebellion against God.. Also trespasses are not sins unto death. These are cleansed by our Advocate. Jesus is not our Advocate for sins willfully committed against God that would require repentance. 1 John 2:1 says nothing about repentance.

I think perhaps the key distintion between our views is that I see all sins as sin, while you see sins unto death and sins not unto death. This leads you to say that there are sins we would never as Christians commit, while other sins might be committed, though we will quickly repent and receive forgiveness.

I would say that all sins are forgiven past present and future, and that we have become someone new who is not the sinner. I would say that as we walk in the Spirit we don't sin at all, of any description, and that if we do out of ignorance, Jesus is cleansing us from sin.

I would say that should we begin to walk according to the flesh, not in the flesh, but according to the flesh, this is sin, as all that is not of faith is sin. I don't divide which sins may or may not be committed. Take adultery, for example, this is a sin unto death under the law, and yet the passing thought of intimacy with another is not unto death under the Law, but is sin just the same. And then it's the same thing in me that says, You deserve that last piece of pie, and this is the exact same thing that says, you should have her! It's all the flesh, whether it wants to murder, or is afraid of tomorrow. All the flesh.

In the Spirit, all is transcended, no sin exists.

In a functional sense, I can't imagine killing someone, or adultery, or these things.

But remember . . . working on the Sabbath was a sin unto death, and how many of us violate that commandment in failing to trust Jesus for our salvation, and in thinking we have works to do lest we not be saved? So where do we draw the line? I draw it between walking in the Spirit, in which is no sin, and walking according to the flesh, which remains unreformed.

We both believe in our freedom from sin in Christ, and I rejoice with you!

Much love!
 

marks

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Those are sins unto death and prevent us from inheriting the Kingdom of God. Knowing the difference is so important, I will go over this with you for as long as it takes. You are important to me. Get the lump doctrine of sin is sin out of your head. No they are not to God. 1 John 5:16-17; Numbers 15:22-36, Leviticus 5:15.
I believe this distinctions are relevant within the old covenant, but that Jesus frees us from All sins.

Much love!
 

CharismaticLady

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while other sins might be committed, though we will quickly repent and receive forgiveness.

I'm at the start of reading your response, and will read the rest later, but this I want to clear up right now. You misunderstand what I believe to be the second type of sin. We commit sins that are unknown to us. We have no knowledge of them as being sins, but they make us less than perfect. They are sins, but trespasses, not willful sins of lawlessness. Because we don't know about them, they cannot be repented of, but in the Lord's Prayer this type of sin (which is the only type in the prayer) is a general forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And the next verse is the condition. If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your trespasses. So to keep a tight ship, just always be in a forgiving mode, or to forgive early. Paul says to be angry, but don't let the sun go down on your anger. Anger is not a sin, but holding a grudge is. Mark, how we walk in the Spirit is when a temptation comes along, the Spirit will immediately give you a warning to your conscience and you turn away before acting on it. Something is wrong with a person's relationship with God if they believe the conviction comes only after you do something wrong. Spirit-filled Christians don't do it in the first place, because the warning/conviction in your conscience is to prevent sin. 1 John 3:21 says "Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God." So go to bed with a clear conscience.