False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Davy]

Get this straight the Sixth Seal is the Day of the Lords wrath, NOT the Return, which is the great Day of God Almighty. Rev 16:14b

Oh man! trying to 'create' a separate time doctrine just based on the terms "day of the Lord" and "great day of God Almighty" is exactly... what those stuck on man's false pre-trib rapture theory do!

The "day of the Lord" = "the great day of God Almighty"

That is when Jesus Christ returns in our near future, the LAST DAY of this present world, the "last trump", or 7th Trumpet. That also will be the day of the last part of the 6th Seal. It is also the day of the 7th Vial of God's Wrath poured out. All that happens on the SAME DAY of Christ's coming. And all... that is written.

 

[Keraz]

There's... your false escapist theory.

Not my theory,
Being taken to a safe place during the final 1260 days is what God will do for His faithful believers.
But those Christians who agree to a 7 year peace treaty must remain and face persecution. As clearly stated, why do you dispute it?

 

[Davy]

Not my theory,
Being taken to a safe place during the final 1260 days is what God will do for His faithful believers.
But those Christians who agree to a 7 year peace treaty must remain and face persecution. As clearly stated, why do you dispute it?

I know... you did not come up with that false idea that you will escape to the rocks of Petra for the tribulation. That's a belief that began among today's Messianic Jews. The 'escaping' during the coming tribulation to the caves of Petra idea you've latched onto is what I am disputing.

Like many Christian brethren, you have yet to understand about Apostle Paul's 'change' to the "spiritual body" 'at the twinkling of an eye' on the "last trump" when Jesus appears and pours out His cup of wrath on earth.

Even in Daniel 3, The LORD gave us an example of how His consuming fire on the last day will NOT harm His servants. Christ appeared in the hot fiery furnace that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego were cast into. When they came out their clothing didn't even smell of smoke.

 

[Keraz]

The "day of the Lord" = "the great day of God Almighty"

The Day of the Lord [vengeance and wrath] Described in Revelation 6:12-17 and in over 100 other Prophesies. It will be the next Prophesied event. to commence all the end time things up to the glorious return.

The Great day of Almighty God, the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. There must be at least 10 years between the two events.

That is when Jesus Christ returns in our near future, the LAST DAY of this present world, the "last trump", or 7th Trumpet. That also will be the day of the last part of the 6th Seal. It is also the day of the 7th Vial of God's Wrath poured out. All that happens on the SAME DAY of Christ's coming. And all... that is written.

You just ignore Revelation 20?
Is that right or even sensible?

 

[Keraz]

The 'escaping' during the coming tribulation to the caves of Petra idea you've latched onto is what I am disputing.

That is not my belief. The place of safety is much further away than Petra. God will transport His faithful people, the ones who trusted Him for their protection.

Like many Christian brethren, you have yet to understand about Apostle Paul's 'change' to the "spiritual body" 'at the twinkling of an eye' on the "last trump" when Jesus appears and pours out His cup of wrath on earth.

Like many other Christians, you fail to see that Pauls Prophecy in 1 Cor 15: 50-56, refers to the GWT Judgment, After the Millennium.
Explain how anyone gets a body change before the Book of Life is opened.

The LORD gave us an example of how His consuming fire on the last day will NOT harm His servants

Right; All who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. Isaiah 43:2, +
We must trust Him for protection, We are also expected to get under cover on that terrible Day.

 

[Davy]

The Day of the Lord [vengeance and wrath] Described in Revelation 6:12-17 and in over 100 other Prophesies. It will be the next Prophesied event. to commence all the end time things up to the glorious return.

The Great day of Almighty God, the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign. There must be at least 10 years between the two events.

You just ignore Revelation 20?
Is that right or even sensible?

NOPE!

The "day of the Lord" that Apostle Peter and Apostle Paul showed will come "as a thief in the night", HAPPENS ON THE LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes.

Even in Rev.16:15, the very next verse after your false interpretation, Jesus said He comes "as a thief" thus pointing to His return ON the "day of the Lord".

Rev 16:14-17
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

Even that timing of Rev.16:14 with mention of "the battle of that great day of God Almighty" it includes... the word "battle" pointing DIRECTLY... to that "Armageddon" event that will happen on the "day of the Lord"! How can one miss that with simply READING those Scripture passages??

 

[Keraz]

The "day of the Lord" that Apostle Peter and Apostle Paul showed will come "as a thief in the night", HAPPENS ON THE LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes.

Does Revelation 1:7 sound like a 'thief in the night'?
It will be the sudden and unexpected Sixth Seal worldwide disaster the fulfils the 'thief; metaphor.
You need to realize that there have been are will be more Days of the Lord. Not just the one and only of the Return.

its 11 pm here. Gone to bed.

 

[Davy]

That is not my belief. The place of safety is much further away than Petra. God will transport His faithful people, the ones who trusted Him for their protection.

Then you must believe in the false... Pre-trib Rapture theory! For that is what they wrongly believe.

The false Pre-trib Rapture theory teaches that we are whisked away by Jesus PRIOR to the start of the "great tribulation". Then the events of the tribulation happen upon the wicked left behind on earth.

That is why pushing escape ideas for Christ's servants before... the great tribulation is... the pushing of man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory. That is what you are putting your trust in, just a false doctrine of men that was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830s Great Britain by John Nelson Darby and Edward Irving.

Like many other Christians, you fail to see that Pauls Prophecy in 1 Cor 15: 50-56, refers to the GWT Judgment, After the Millennium.

The error is yours, since the 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 prophecy is about the "last trump" (7th Trumpet) timing on the day of Jesus' future coming.

Saying that is about God's Great White Throne Judgment time, which only will happen a "thousand years" AFTER... Christ has returned, is just ludicrous! (Rev.20)

Explain how anyone gets a body change before the Book of Life is opened.

Right; All who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. Isaiah 43:2, +
We must trust Him for protection, We are also expected to get under cover on that terrible Day.

On the day of Christ's future coming, the last day, the "day of the Lord", Jesus said the following about that day...

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 6:44
44 No man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

That is about the 'last day' of THIS PRESENT WORLD, not a 1,000 years after Jesus and His elect reign over the nations of Rev.20. How can you not understand that??? You are confused! So how... did you not know, that ON that same day, that 'resurrection' happens?

 

[Davy]

Does Revelation 1:7 sound like a 'thief in the night'?

Does what Jesus Himself said in Revelation 16:15 sound like "as a thief", which is the metaphor that Apostles Peter and Paul used for the last day "day of the Lord" event will come "as a thief in the night"? You bettcha'! (for those like Keraz that doubt God's Word as written on that, see 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5, and 2 Peter 3:10).

It will be the sudden and unexpected Sixth Seal worldwide disaster the fulfils the 'thief; metaphor.
You need to realize that there have been are will be more Days of the Lord. Not just the one and only of the Return.

its 11 pm here. Gone to bed.

The 6th SEAL events of Revelation 6:14-17 is the LAST DAY of this present world when the following will happen...

1. all... nations will see Christ's coming in the clouds, the "last trump" sounding (7th Trumpet).

2. at that very moment the 7th Vial is poured out into the "air", God's consuming fire will end this present world time.

3. at the same time, Christ gathers the 'asleep' saints to Him on His way returning to earth. This is the 'resurrection'.

4. at the same time, ALL... still alive on earth are suddenly 'changed', at the 'twinkling of an eye', to the "spiritual body" of 1 Corinthians 15, including the wicked on earth (per Isaiah 25 about death swallowed up in victory).

5. at the same time, those of Satan's army gathered to come up against Jerusalem, are destroyed by God's cup of wrath. The leftovers remaining will then be required to come up to Jerusalem to worship The KING (Jesus Christ) and keep the feast of tabernacles (Zechariah 14).

6. at that same time, Jesus WITH all His 'elect' saints, go to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, and His feet touch down there with that mount splitting in two. And He with His elect saints begin the "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20, over all... nations and peoples on earth. Those of the resurrection of damnation are there reigned over too, as ALL... in that world to come will be in the "spiritual body" type. This present flesh world will be over on that day of Christ's coming once God's consuming fire burns the things of this world off His earth.

 

[ewq1938]

The people are trying to hide, to avoid being killed.

No, they want the rocks to fall on them during a time of earthquakes so they can die. I might remind you neither passage you cited has any mention of fire, especially the 6th seal which you think is a day of fiery killing. There is no NT prophecy about anyone being killed (the first death) with fire except one, after the Millennium outside of Jerusalem.

 

[Keraz]

That is why pushing escape ideas for Christ's servants before.

What I promote is what the Bible tells us. In Revelation 12:6 & 14 say that a group of Christians will be taken to a safe place during the 1260 days of the GT. Do you deny this?

Saying that is about God's Great White Throne Judgment time, which only will happen a "thousand years" AFTER... Christ has returned, is just ludicrous! (Rev.20)

I proved that 1 Cor 15:54....Death is swallowed up; victory is won! does not happen to humans until the beginning of Eternity, Revelation 21:4
Your denials and ranting show an inability to properly see what the Prophetic Word is actually telling us.

The 6th SEAL events of Revelation 6:14-17 is the LAST DAY of this present world

Nonsense!
You have shuffled Revelation to believe that. The world will go on and all the events from Rev 7, will take place as Prophesied.

There is no NT prophecy about anyone being killed (the first death) with fire except one, after the Millennium outside of Jerusalem.

There are 70 + Bible Prophesies which describe fire being used on the Lords Day of vengeance and wrath. These are some of the ones in the New Testament: Matthew 3:10-12, Matthew 13:30, 2 Peter 3:7, Hebrews 10:26-27, 1 Peter 4:12, Revelation 14:18

Why do you feel you have to reject what the Lord has said He will do?

 

[Timtofly]

The faithful Christians will be kept safe in a distant location and when Jesus Returns, it will be them, mostly; who the angels gather at the glorious Return of Jesus. Matthew 24:30-31

They are currently enjoying life at a safe distance, and have been since the Cross. It is called Paradise. They are gathered from from one corner of heaven to the other. Paradise is where they are gathered from.

But the church does not come to earth. After meeting in the air in a very public way, they return to Paradise and told to wait during the Trumpets and Thunders, the final harvest. Jesus and the angels are then on the earth gathering the final harvest. This is declared in the 5th Seal:

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

This little season is the time of Jacob's trouble. This waiting starts even before the 6th Seal is opened, and before the 7th Seal. But time will not matter. The 4th, 5th, and 6th Seals will happen very quickly.

The final harvest is the Trumpets and Thunders.

 

[Keraz]

Isaiah 10:1-4 Woe betide you who enact unjust laws and draft oppressive edicts, depriving the poor of justice and robbing My people of their rights. What will you do, when called to account, when devastation from afar confronts you? Where will you hide your riches and leave your children? Nothing will remain, but that you cringe among the captives or fall with the slain.

Isaiah 9:16-19 Those who guide My people have led them astray and those who follow them are deluded. Therefore the Lord will show no mercy to the youths or pity the widows and fatherless. They are a nation of godless evildoers, everyone speaks impiety. For all this, His anger has not abated.

The ungodly are set ablaze, like a fire it consumes the briars and thorns. It sets the forests ablaze and all is wrapped in a pall of smoke. The land is scorched by the fury of the Lord and the people will be fuel for the fire.

Isaiah 8:9-10 Take note you nations: You will be shattered. Listen all you distant parts of the earth, arm yourselves and be defeated, prepare for battle and be shattered. Devise your plans, but they will be foiled, prepare what you will, but it will not be carried out.

Isaiah 10:17-19 The Light of Israel will be become a fire, their Holy One, a flame – which in one Day will burn up and consume His thorns and briars. The beauty of the forests and pastures will be suddenly devastated and only a remnant will remain.

Isaiah 13:9-13 The Day of the Lord is coming, that cruel Day of wrath and fierce anger, a Day of darkness to reduce the [holy] Land to a desolation and to destroy the wicked there. The Lord will punish the world for its evil, the wicked and proud peoples will be cut down. Humans will be as scarce as gold, as rare as the gold of Ophir. The sky will tear apart and the earth will be moved from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, on the Day of His blazing anger.
Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

These Bible prophecies say it all, how the unjust and godless peoples will be brought to account, those ‘thorns and briars’, that is: those who despise the Lord’s people and attack the holy Land, will be punished. Ezekiel 28:24 & 30:1-5, Jeremiah 12:14

This is prophesied to be carried out by the means of a terrible judgement of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis, all to be fulfilled literally by a Coronal Mass Ejection from the sun: ‘tearing apart the sky’. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1 That will ‘reduce the land to desolation’, and ‘cut down all the proud and wicked peoples’. Their plans against the Lord’s people will not be carried out. Deut. 32:22&34-35, Psalms 83:1-18, Psalms 7:12-16, Jer. 49:34-37, Rev. 6:12-17

But, after this sudden and shocking event, those who love the Lord and keep His Commandments, every born again Christian, have His amazing promises of their redemption and the restoration of the Holy Land, where they will gather and live in peace and security. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Jeremiah 33:12-13, Isaiah 66:12-21, Joel 2:21-24

Is the Day the Lord ‘tears apart the sky and reduces the earth to desolation’, the same Day of the Return in glory? No, these scriptures do not match with the Return, this happens first in order to fulfil God’s promises to the Patriarchs; Psalms 105:5-10 and for the sake of His Holy Name. Ezekiel 36:22

 

[rebuilder 454]

Oh man! trying to 'create' a separate time doctrine just based on the terms "day of the Lord" and "great day of God Almighty" is exactly... what those stuck on man's false pre-trib rapture theory do!

The "day of the Lord" = "the great day of God Almighty"

That is when Jesus Christ returns in our near future, the LAST DAY of this present world, the "last trump", or 7th Trumpet. That also will be the day of the last part of the 6th Seal. It is also the day of the 7th Vial of God's Wrath poured out. All that happens on thtribbers e SAME DAY of Christ's coming. And all... that is written.

Nope
It is postribbers that are CENTERED on one liners or cliche's.
"Day of the lord"
"After"
"Darby"
"Lahaye"
"Lie of satan"
"Never taught by early church"
"Thief"
90 percent of their " doctrine" is extra biblical, And one liners, then when they do actually crack a bible, they OMIT AND REFRAME every single rapture verse, thinking their verses VOID OUT AND REMOVE the ACTUAL RAPTURE VERSES..

 

[Hobie]

Rev 13 shows the start of the trib and there is no such thing as two groups of Christians. The two times the woman is protected in Rev 12 are historical events by the timeframe of Rev 13.




Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

This does not describe two groups of Christians, nor is one hidden away in some protective area as you have claimed.

In context, those violating the covenant are the enemy of God and definitely not Christians.







Not a punishment to die as a Christian Martyr in the tribulation.




This concept of redeeming themselves does not come from any of the texts you cite, nor any others. It's made up, almost identical nonsense Pretribbers use. There are no second class Christians in the trib. You either are a Christian or you aren't.

What confusion, never seen such a thing thats gotten so misunderstood. First take a look at what was the norm for Jewish understanding...
Deuteronomy 17:6
At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

It was by two witnesses that the truth would be established, and it was done during the 1260 years that the truth came out against the apostate church by the 'two witnesses'.

Revelation 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

So what two witnesses where there during this time, read the verse after it and you are given a clue.

Revelation 11:4
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Now discern what these two witnesses are by letting scripture interpret scripture....

Bible Gateway passage: Zechariah 4 - King James Version

And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep. And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[rebuilder 454]

What confusion, never seen such a thing thats gotten so misunderstood. First take a look at what was the norm for Jewish understanding...
Deuteronomy 17:6
At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Matthew 18:16
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

It was by two witnesses that the truth would be established, and it was done during the 1260 years that the truth came out against the apostate church by the 'two witnesses'.

Revelation 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

So what two witnesses where there during this time, read the verse after it and you are given a clue.

Revelation 11:4
These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Now discern what these two witnesses are by letting scripture interpret scripture....

Bible Gateway passage: Zechariah 4 - King James Version

And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep. And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven...

www.biblegateway.com

Except the context of the 2 witnesses conflicts with your theory

 

[Hobie]

Oh man! trying to 'create' a separate time doctrine just based on the terms "day of the Lord" and "great day of God Almighty" is exactly... what those stuck on man's false pre-trib rapture theory do!

The "day of the Lord" = "the great day of God Almighty"

That is when Jesus Christ returns in our near future, the LAST DAY of this present world, the "last trump", or 7th Trumpet. That also will be the day of the last part of the 6th Seal. It is also the day of the 7th Vial of God's Wrath poured out. All that happens on the SAME DAY of Christ's coming. And all... that is written.

That describes clearly the Second Coming.

 

[rebuilder 454]

That describes clearly the Second Coming.

exactly.
I have challenged all on the forum to post a post trib RAPTURE verse and nobody has.
All rapture verses are normal life, peacetime, and buying /selling going on.
That alone discredits any hope of some to "go through the trib" then the fact that all take the mark or die, pretty much seals the folly of some made up postrib rapture doctrine.

 

[Hobie]

exactly.
I have challenged all on the forum to post a post trib RAPTURE verse and nobody has.
All rapture verses are normal life, peacetime, and buying /selling going on.
That alone discredits any hope of some to "go through the trib" then the fact that all take the mark or die, pretty much seals the folly of some made up postrib rapture doctrine.

They have been deceived, and yet what can you do...

 

[Hobie]

Except the context of the 2 witnesses conflicts with your theory

Well, here is a good explanation.,.."
What Is the Tribulation?
As we discuss the great tribulation to take place just before Jesus returns, keep in mind that there have been several other "times of trouble" for God's people in the past.

For example, the children of Israel endured 400 years of tribulation just before the Exodus (Acts 7:6). The early Christians also passed through a time of trouble immediately after the stoning of Stephen (Acts 8:1). From A.D. 303-313, during the era represented by the Smyrna church (Revelation 2:10), God's people suffered a 10-year period of tribulation. But perhaps the most notable time of trouble was the 1,260 years of intense persecution waged against true Christians during the Dark Ages. "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and threescore days." "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman." Revelation 12:6, 13.

As dark as each of these times were for God's people, none can compare with the final, great tribulation that is yet to take place. The great tribulation corresponds with the time during which the seven last plagues of Revelation chapter 16 will fall. "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." Revelation 15:1.

God's wrath will be directed against the ones who disobey His law, distort His truth, and oppress His people. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Romans 1:18.

The great tribulation also coincides with the Battle of Armageddon. Both take place immediately before Christ's second coming. "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done."

It is my belief that the great time of trouble will last only a month or two. Here are a few Scriptures that show it will be a short period of time.

Revelation 18:8 tells us, "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day." A "day" in Bible prophecy represents one literal year (Ezekiel 4:6, Numbers 14:34, Luke 13:32). So when Revelation says that "her plagues come in one day," it means within, or less than, one year's time. The very nature of the seven last plagues-the rivers and seas turning to blood and the planet being scorched with great heat-would render it impossible for the human race to survive more than a month or two. This is why Jesus said, "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened." Matthew 24:22, NKJV."Through The Tribulation | Inside Report | Amazing Facts