False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[Keraz]

I said the bible says all take the mark. All take it or die.

Those 'all', will be the people living where the Anti-Christ has full control.
We know from Revelation 12:14, that the faithful Christian peoples will be taken to a place of safety on earth, far away from AC rule.

Ezekiel 13:9 has some warnings for those who promote false theories and who teach escapism instead of enduring until the end and staying strong; trusting the Lord for protection.

 

[ewq1938]

We know from Revelation 12:14, that the faithful Christian peoples will be taken to a place of safety on earth, far away from AC rule.

No, that happens before the trib. The trib starts in the last verse and is a war against Christians.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Not taken to safety but will be targets of a war, a war that will be successful against Christians as seen in Rev 13, the 5th seal and the beheaded saints of Rev 20. All show those who will be killed in the war against Christians.

 

[Keraz]

No, that happens before the trib. The trib starts in the last verse and is a war against Christians.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Not taken to safety but will be targets of a war, a war that will be successful against Christians as seen in Rev 13, the 5th seal and the beheaded saints of Rev 20. All show those who will be killed in the war against Christians.

I agree. Those faithful Christians will be kept in a safe place for the duration of the Great Tribulation. The final 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days.
The Christians who must remain, will be those who violated the Covenant, as Daniel 11:32 says. Also Prophesied in Isaiah 28:14-15.

This division of the Christians into 2 groups is also Prophesied in Zechariah 14:2, It happens after the Anti-Christ 'beast' has conquered Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:1

 

[ewq1938]

I agree. Those faithful Christians will be kept in a safe place for the duration of the Great Tribulation. The final 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 1260 days.
The Christians who must remain, will be those who violated the Covenant, as Daniel 11:32 says. Also Prophesied in Isaiah 28:14-15.

This division of the Christians into 2 groups is also Prophesied in Zechariah 14:2, It happens after the Anti-Christ 'beast' has conquered Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:1

There is nothing in any of Rev that hints that the Christians targeted in the trib have violated anything. It is said they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. You do the same that Pre-tribs do, lower the trib saints as "less than" Christians guilty of something so that's why they get persecuted and killed by satan.

 

[Keraz]

There is nothing in any of Rev that hints that the Christians targeted in the trib have violated anything. It is said they keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. You do the same that Pre-tribs do, lower the trib saints as "less than" Christians guilty of something so that's why they get persecuted and killed by satan.

But you fail to explain the reason for the separation of the Christians into two groups. As Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14 and 17 plainly tell us. Also shown in Daniel 11:32, where it is told to us why this separation will happen.
The 'covenant' which is violated, refers to the New Covenant that Jesus will make with all the Christian peoples when we go to live in all of the holy land. A Covenant of peace and protection, Hebrews 8:8-12, which the Lord will keep by wiping out the attack by Gog from Magog.
But after this attack, the leader of the rest of the world, Daniel 7:23, Revelation 13:1-18, will come to us and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty.

This agreement violates the Covenant with God, and He calls it a treaty with Death, Isaiah 28:14-18
Those who go along with this treaty, no longer trust the Lord for His protection and will have to stay in the holy land during the 42 months of world Satanic control, which is also the Great Tribulation. The faithful Christians will be kept safe in a distant location and when Jesus Returns, it will be them, mostly; who the angels gather at the glorious Return of Jesus. Matthew 24:30-31

 

[ewq1938]

But you fail to explain the reason for the separation of the Christians into two groups. As Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14 and 17 plainly tell us.

All that is before the GT. Also, a mother is not the same as her children. It's incorrect to think Rev 12 shows her children being separated into two groups at the time of the trib.


There will be an Apostasy, where some Christians will stop being Christians. Paul wrote of this, but it is not shown in Rev. Zechariah 14:2 does not show this either.

This agreement violates the Covenant with God, and He calls it a treaty with Death, Isaiah 28:14-18
Those who go along with this treaty, no longer trust the Lord for His protection and will have to stay in the holy land during the 42 months of world

Like the two witnesses and the 144k? No, you are wrong on all of that. Being persecuted in the trib is not a punishment and does not mean someone has violated anything. In fact, those of the Apostasy will live very well in the trib, immune from tribulation and persecution because they will be on the side of the enemy. You have things backwards.

Satanic control, which is also the Great Tribulation. The faithful Christians will be kept safe in a distant location and when Jesus Returns

No, they aren't in safety at all during that time. I already referred to multiple passages in Rev that prove you wrong. You are simply teaching a version of Pretrib where Christians are raptured to another place on Earth instead of Heaven. It's still the same false doctrine.

 

[Davy]

But you fail to explain the reason for the separation of the Christians into two groups. As Zechariah 14:2, Revelation 12:14 and 17 plainly tell us. Also shown in Daniel 11:32, where it is told to us why this separation will happen.

Where are you getting that false separation idea of two groups? That's not written.


Rev 12:11-17
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Those are Christians.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

That is "great tribulation" timing above; it is caused by Satan and his angels being cast out of the Heavenly dimension down to earth in our... earthly dimension, to deceive the whole world. It's what Apostle Paul's "strong delusion" will be about.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

That is the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27. It's the period of 1260 days for the great tribulation time of Rev.11. It's when God's two witnesses show up in Jerusalem and prophesy against the beast for that 1260 days at the end.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

That is a comparison of the flood of Noah's day with the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" for the "great tribulation" timing. That "woman" still... represents both the seed of Israel and Christ's Church.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

Most don't yet know it, but God scattered the ten tribe "house of Israel" to Asia Minor and Europe, it is they who accepted The Gospel of Jesus Christ and started the western Christian nations. They simply lost their heritage as being of the seed of Israel, and became as Gentiles, scattered among the Gentiles, a curse that God promised for disobeying Him (Deut.4 & 28).

But is that old serpent coming to deceive ONLY the seed of Israel? No, of course not. He is coming to deceive the whole world, even those of the Christian Church that are lukewarm, and not of Christ's very elect who won't be deceived.

 

[Keraz]

Where are you getting that false separation idea of two groups? That's not written.

From the Bible. All as Written; Zechariah 14:2 and Revelation 12 both tell of two groups of the Christian peoples.

Like the two witnesses and the 144k? No, you are wrong on all of that. Being persecuted in the trib is not a punishment

Yes; the two Witnesses will be in Jerusalem during the Great Tribulation, as well as those Christians who did violate the Covenant, as Daniel 11:32 undeniably says.
Not a punishment? You are simply unable to read, let alone understand what happens during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns. Even the two Witnesses get killed. The rest of the 144,000 may survive by being scattered around the world.

Most of the GT martyrs, will come from those Christians who have to stay under Satanic control, Rev 12:17
To redeem themselves, they will have to keep their faith unto death. But then, their reward will be great; Revelation 20:4-6

 

[ewq1938]

From the Bible. All as Written; Zechariah 14:2 and Revelation 12 both tell of two groups of the Christian peoples.

Rev 13 shows the start of the trib and there is no such thing as two groups of Christians. The two times the woman is protected in Rev 12 are historical events by the timeframe of Rev 13.

Yes; the two Witnesses will be in Jerusalem during the Great Tribulation, as well as those Christians who did violate the Covenant, as Daniel 11:32 undeniably says.

Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

This does not describe two groups of Christians, nor is one hidden away in some protective area as you have claimed.

In context, those violating the covenant are the enemy of God and definitely not Christians.

Not a punishment? You are simply unable to read, let alone understand what happens during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns. Even the two Witnesses get killed. The rest of the 144,000 may survive by being scattered around the world.

Not a punishment to die as a Christian Martyr in the tribulation.

Most of the GT martyrs, will come from those Christians who have to stay under Satanic control, Rev 12:17
To redeem themselves, they will have to keep their faith unto death. But then, their reward will be great; Revelation 20:4-6

This concept of redeeming themselves does not come from any of the texts you cite, nor any others. It's made up, almost identical nonsense Pretribbers use. There are no second class Christians in the trib. You either are a Christian or you aren't.

 

[Keraz]

Rev 13 shows the start of the trib and there is no such thing as two groups of Christians. The two times the woman is protected in Rev 12 are historical events by the timeframe of Rev 13.

Sure; the Revelation sequence is right; Rec 13 immediately follows Rev 12;
Zechariah 14:2 and Rev 12 are plenty adequate to prove the truth of the Christian peoples being divided into two groups for the 1260 day period of the GT.

In context, those violating the covenant are the enemy of God and definitely not Christians.

Daniel 11:30-31 describes the lead up to the conquest of the peoples living in the holy Land. Vividly described in Zechariah 14:1

You avoid the context after verse 32. -Daniel 11:33-35 says how the people faithful to their God....will take action and some who are insincere will help them.....to be tested and made shining white.

Not a punishment to die as a Christian Martyr in the tribulation.

Punishment is the way the Anti-Christ sees the chopping off of their heads. Probably use some torture, as they did to early Christians.

This concept of redeeming themselves does not come from any of the texts you cite, nor any others. It's made up, almost identical nonsense Pretribbers use. There are no second class Christians in the trib. You either are a Christian or you aren't.

What is it that keeps people from understanding that if the people in Revelation 12:17 must face persecution, they are being tested and if they fail they must take the mark of the beast, but for them to succeed means mortal death.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Those 'all', will be the people living where the Anti-Christ has full control.
We know from Revelation 12:14, that the faithful Christian peoples will be taken to a place of safety on earth, far away from AC rule.

Ezekiel 13:9 has some warnings for those who promote false theories and who teach escapism instead of enduring until the end and staying strong; trusting the Lord foction.

Sad to hear that lot was under your condemnation. He was so weak in your eyes. He should have stayed in Sodom instead of following the Lords deliverance.
And the baby Jesus in such a false theory of escapism. He should have stayed, and not escaped to egypt, as your superior method would have falsely seen God protect him. Instead His parents chose the inferior plan of God.
Then we see Jesus himself not heed your superior theory of some made up protection of the bride.
He had the audacity of escapism and actually used the word "escape"!!!
"...but pray that you be counted worthy to ESCAPE the things about to come upon the world and stand before the Son of God"

If only Jesus had your superior assumptions when he walked the earth.

QUOTE ; "We know from Revelation 12:14, that the faithful Christian peoples will be taken to a place of safety on earth, far away from AC rule."
That is israel. The woman that gave birth to Jesus.
Reread it.
The church NEVER gave birth to Jesus.
You pivot on false assumptions.
You actually BASE you false assumptions on pure baloney
These things are no-brainers.
Truly you have Gods word testifying DIRECTLY against you false beliefs.

BTW, if enduring or standing to the end ( where you anti pretribs see yourselves running from cave to cave with the ac running after you), then some believers currently in graves are not saved, because maybe they had uneventful lives in america with ZERO persecutions and were never in any dangerous situation for their faith.
This false doctrine of assumptions you are promoting has so much made up mess that actually FLIES IN THE FACE of the bible, it must be pure pride that keeps you from turning away from air castle assumptions you have devised in trying to mentally explain away solid bible basic truth.
The bible testifies against you.
Those verses will not go away, you can not void them with some out of context cherry picked verses.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rev 13 shows the start of the trib and there is no such thing as two groups of Christians. The two times the woman is protected in Rev 12 are historical events by the timeframe of Rev 13.




Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

This does not describe two groups of Christians, nor is one hidden away in some protective area as you have claimed.

In context, those violating the covenant are the enemy of God and definitely not Christians.







Not a punishment to die as a Christian Martyr in the tribulation.




This concept of redeeming themselves does not come from any of the texts you cite, nor any others. It's made up, almost identical nonsense Pretribbers use. There are no second class Christians in the trib. You either are a Christian or you aren't.

You are mostly wrong.
Your condemnation of pretribbers has you aligned DIRECTLY against Gods word.
There are tons of "worthiness vs unworthiness" dynamics concerning believers in the bible.
The crowns are going to those who are worthy.
Those without a particular crown are in fact UNWORTHY of that crown.
Crowns are EARNED AWARDS. (worthy vs unworthy automatically.)
The parable of the wedding feast SPECIFICALLY has unworthiness to the first group who were invited.
The parable of the talents is in fact "WORTHINESS VS UNWORTHINESS"
Jesus himself used "worthy" in his pretrib rapture escape verse!!!

Your false doctrine has lined you up in a mess friend.
And yes not all believers are the bride. Not all are taken in the rapture.
We see that concept VIVIDLY portrayed in both the parable of the virgins and mat 24 in the one taken vs left behind.

 

[Keraz]

BTW, if enduring or standing to the end ( where you anti pretribs see yourselves running from cave to cave with the ac running after you)

People will run for cover when the Lord sends His fiery wrath and we are told to take shelter too; Isaiah 26:20-21
But we also need to - Call upon the Name of the Lord and we will be saved.

some believers currently in graves are not saved, because maybe they had uneventful lives in america with ZERO persecutions and were never in any dangerous situation for their faith.

God is the Judge. Remember that to whom much is given, much more is expected.

Despite your persistent and pushy promotion of the unbiblical 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, you fail to post any real proof of such a thing.
I look forward to the wonderful time that we Christians will live in all of the holy Land, fulfilling our destiny of being the people who will display God's glory to the nations. Isaiah 66:18b-21, Romans 9:24-26

 

[Davy]

From the Bible. All as Written; Zechariah 14:2 and Revelation 12 both tell of two groups of the Christian peoples.

I explained the proper Bible interpretation of those verses in my previous post.

 

[Keraz]

I explained the proper Bible interpretation of those verses in my previous post.

I mostly agree with your post #287.
I don't see what you are trying to prove, you actually verify the two groups of Rev 12.
If you think the group taken to safety are not faithful Christians, then who are they?

 

[ewq1938]

People will run for cover when the Lord sends His fiery wrath

Run for cover?

 

[Keraz]

Run for cover?

As it is Written in: Revelation 6:15-17, Isaiah 2:19-21
When it is understood what the Lord will use on His Day of fiery wrath, then there will be time to find shelter from the extreme heat, violent storms, disastrous tectonic plate movement and giant tsunamis.
Millions will die, especially in the Middle east region, but most will survive to form a One World Govt. The Christian people will not join it.

 

[ewq1938]

As it is Written in: Revelation 6:15-17,

They are not looking for cover there but for rocks to fall on them. They want to be killed rather than suffer the wrath of Christ.

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Gill:

And said to the mountains and rocks, fall on us,.... They chose death rather than life.

Isaiah 2:19-21

Doesn't specify but they might want the same to happen.

When it is understood what the Lord will use on His Day of fiery wrath

No second coming passage has any fire used to kill people. Neither pasage you cited above has any fire either. They both speak of the earth shaking though, which is why people go into holes and caves etc where rocks could fall upon them. That's better than the full wrath of God.

 

[Davy]

I mostly agree with your post #287.
I don't see what you are trying to prove, you actually verify the two groups of Rev 12.
If you think the group taken to safety are not faithful Christians, then who are they?

NO! I did NOT... verify two groups in Rev.12:7-17.

What you do not understand about those Rev.12:7-17 section of verses is that WHEN Satan and his angels are booted out of Heaven down to this earth, that... STARTS the time of "great tribulation", which means the latter 1260 days of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9:27 and the events of Dan.11 with the placing of the "abomination of desolation" in a new Jewish 3rd temple built for the 'end' of THIS world. Christ's Church ain't going... anywhere during all that!

And the symbolic "woman" in the Rev.12:17 verse represents ONLY Christians who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. They also follow the commandments of God too! So that is NOT about unbelieving Jews and Christians as two groups, a false idea which you apparently got from 'unbelieving' Jews who think they don't need Jesus to be saved.

And I am aware of certain groups of Messianic Jews that believe that when the false-Messiah (Antichrist) shows up in Jerusalem, and places the abomination idol, that they will go hide in caves at Petra and such. But Biblically, those who hide in the cleft of the rocks for the end are Christ's enemies!...

Rev 6:15-16
15 The kings of the earth and the great men, the military chiefs, the wealthy and the powerful--all, whether slaves or free men--hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,

16 while they called to the mountains and the rocks, saying, "Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne and from the anger of the Lamb;
Weymouth

There's... your false escapist theory. And if you had listened to God's Word 'as written', you would have known your brethren had latched onto a false idea started by false Jews that had crept in.

 

[Keraz]

Gill:

And said to the mountains and rocks, fall on us,.... They chose death rather than life.

Going by what the commentators say is a mistake. They didn't live in the time of the end. Daniel 12:4
The people are trying to hide, to avoid being killed.

No second coming passage has any fire used to kill people

Get this straight the Sixth Seal is the Day of the Lords wrath, NOT the Return, which is the great Day of God Almighty. Rev 16:14b
Over 70 Bible prophesies state that Day of wrath will be by fire and related disasters caused by the earth shaking as it is struck by this fiery mass. Isaiah 66:15-16, 2 Peter 3:7, +