Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And that is why Israel buil;t the walls- to control who enters into their land.Let me repeat. When the enemy is already in the land, walls do nothing. Walls are to keep the enemy out of the land.
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
And that is why Israel buil;t the walls- to control who enters into their land.Let me repeat. When the enemy is already in the land, walls do nothing. Walls are to keep the enemy out of the land.
Actually it is not the anger of God, but the love of God to prepare His covenant people to receive Messiah as a nation! And that will happen in the end of the tribulation.I asked that question too and I figured that was just how angry God was at them.
Actually it is not the anger of God, but the love of God to prepare His covenant people to receive Messiah as a nation!
Not angry, as that time was an opportunity for them to turn around. Being angry would have meant wiped off the face of the earth, so to speak, then, and not 500 years later.I asked that question too and I figured that was just how angry God was at them.
Hmm... I would submit, Ronald, that God's righteous anger is part of His love... is one manifestation of His love. And that has happened many, many, many times from the Fall until even now... and will until Christ returns.Actually it is not the anger of God, but the love of God to prepare His covenant people to receive Messiah as a nation! And that will happen in the end of the tribulation.
The Mark 13:24-27 version is ONLY about Christ's gathering of the saints 'from the earth'. Surely you can read that, "from the uttermost part of the earth" and understand that means a gathering from the earth only.27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
As we can see, this is the gathering FROM HEAVEN AND EARTH. We also see that Jesus sends His angels. This is not the rapture of the Church when the Lord Himself comes. We see this rapture..........here. This event occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God which occurs IMMEDATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.
Like Jesus showed in His parable of the tares of the field, the HARVEST is the day of His coming to separate the "tares" from His wheat. That's what a "sharp sickle" is used for, a tool for harvesting wheat and tares (see Matt.13).Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
The ONLY ones in Christ gathered from heaven on the day of His return are the "asleep" saints that Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.4 that will FIRST be RESURRECTED, and then Jesus brings them with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:13-16). Do you need me to show you those verses?Who is gathered from heaven.........the Church. The Church is seen in heaven........here.
Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
It seems you do not understand the difference from the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels. Not the same event.
The Mark 13:24-27 version is ONLY about Christ's gathering of the saints 'from the earth'. Surely you can read that, "from the uttermost part of the earth" and understand that means a gathering from the earth only.
But the Matthew 24:29-31 version is about His gathering the saints from Heaven, i.e., about the resurrection of the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him like Paul said in 1 Thess.4:13-16.
The Mark 13 version ONLY is about what many call a 'rapture', but Apostle Paul called it "caught up" in 1 Thess.4:17.
Thus what Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse is the SAME 2 gathering events that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
Like Jesus showed in His parable of the tares of the field, the HARVEST is the day of His coming to separate the "tares" from His wheat. That's what a "sharp sickle" is used for, a tool for harvesting wheat and tares (see Matt.13).
The ONLY ones in Christ gathered from heaven on the day of His return are the "asleep" saints that Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.4 that will FIRST be RESURRECTED, and then Jesus brings them with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:13-16). Do you need me to show you those verses?
And surely you understand that the future RESURRECTION doesn't happen until the LAST DAY of this world, like Jesus said? (John 6:40).
If I don't understand, then how is it that you can't grasp that above Revelation 5:9 verse is for the time AFTER Jesus has returned?
And who has mesmerized you into thinking Christ sending His angels to gather His saints is NOT about the day of His future return?? His angels doing that is simply a detail in one place in Scripture (His Olivet discourse) that is simply not mentioned in others (like 1 Thess.4). Your reasoning is like you can't say it's Jesus coming unless He leads His pack of angels ahead of them.
Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV
2 Thess 1:7-8
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV
Matt 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
KJV
Matt 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Matt 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV
The dead in Christ rise first. The barley harvest. No second coming reference.1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
Yes, this is the rapture. The secret pretribulation rapture. The wheat harvest. The previously raptured dead return with the Lord and we meet them in the air. No one but those looking for Him will see Him.1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)
Matthew 24 tells us that the second rapture, THE SECOND COMING occurs at the 6th seal. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION..........and BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. This is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. However He remains in the clouds and all return to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb...................BEFORE Armageddon.Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Correct.The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over,
"A" rapture happens. The Church is already in heaven........before the tribulation. This second rapture at the sixth seal occurs BEFORE the wrath of God. We see the second coming in Revelation 14. It occurs at the 6th seal BEFORE the wrath of God.so the rapture happens post-Trib.
The Church is raptured before the tribulation. The Lord Himself comes.Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.
You've yet to prove that false witness of yours.The Word counters what you are saying. The Word does not lie.
This scripture is about the rapture of the Church............PRE TRIB. That's why they are seen in heaven in Rev 5. That's why the 24 elders have crowns in Revelation 4............Jesus has come.
Christ said in Revelation 16:15 that He comes "as a thief".The barley harvest occurs first. That is the dead in Christ rising first. The alive that remain will not precede the dead. The Lord will then return for the wheat harvest. He will bring the dead with Him. When the Lord Himself comes with the dead the alive that remained will be caught up together with them in the clouds.
So yes. This is the rapture of the Church BEFORE the tribulation. And the great tribulation happens BEFORE the wrath of God.
You are incorrect.The Mark 13:24-27 version is ONLY about Christ's gathering of the saints 'from the earth'. Surely you can read that, "from the uttermost part of the earth" and understand that means a gathering from the earth only.
This is also incorrect.But the Matthew 24:29-31 version is about His gathering the saints from Heaven, i.e., about the resurrection of the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him like Paul said in 1 Thess.4:13-16.
The Mark 13 version ONLY is about what many call a 'rapture', but Apostle Paul called it "caught up" in 1 Thess.4:17.
Thus what Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse is the SAME 2 gathering events that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17.
This is also incorrect.Like Jesus showed in His parable of the tares of the field, the HARVEST is the day of His coming to separate the "tares" from His wheat. That's what a "sharp sickle" is used for, a tool for harvesting wheat and tares (see Matt.13).
No. I don't need the verses.The ONLY ones in Christ gathered from heaven on the day of His return are the "asleep" saints that Apostle Paul showed in 1 Thess.4 that will FIRST be RESURRECTED, and then Jesus brings them with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:13-16). Do you need me to show you those verses?
Sure. But do you understand when that last day occurs in Revelation? What chapter?And surely you understand that the future RESURRECTION doesn't happen until the LAST DAY of this world, like Jesus said? (John 6:40).
I understand that. How is it that you don't understand that He has returned before the seals are opened.......which is before the tribulation.If I don't understand, then how is it that you can't grasp that above Revelation 5:9 verse is for the time AFTER Jesus has returned?
The Lord sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.And who has mesmerized you into thinking Christ sending His angels to gather His saints is NOT about the day of His future return?? His angels doing that is simply a detail in one place in Scripture (His Olivet discourse) that is simply not mentioned in others (like 1 Thess.4). Your reasoning is like you can't say it's Jesus coming unless He leads His pack of angels ahead of them.
You are posting verses about two separate events.Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV
2 Thess 1:7-8
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
KJV
Matt 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
KJV
Matt 24:30-31
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Matt 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then He shall reward every man according to his works.
KJV
The Church is raptured before the tribulation. The Lord Himself comes.
Nope! that is you ADDING... to God's Word.According to the infallible word of God Satan was INDEED bound over 2000 years ago so that Christ could spoil (take by conquest) and set free those held captive as his prisoners.
That rider on the white horse of Revelation 6:1-2 is NOT... Lord Jesus Christ.Revelation 6:2
- "And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."
Because Christ as White Horse, has gone forth and conquered/overcome Satan, we are more than conquerors. In reality, if Christ had not conquered and spoiled Satan's house, and Satan wasn't bound 2000+ years ago, then all of us are still held in spiritual captivity, still in bondage to him, and were never made free or translated into Christ's kingdom. That cannot be. Selah!
Jesus did cast out devils, He also gave power for His disciples to do that, including those in Christ today. So don't you get it? The casting out devils by His Church is STILL GOING ON TODAY!Matthew 12:28-29
- "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
- Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house."
Christ did cast out devils by the Spirit of God therefore the promised Kingdom of God has already come. In Christ's parable detailing this mystery, the strong man here is Satan, his house is the captivity wherein he held the elect in servitude or bondage, his goods were those elect, to spoil them mean to take them by conquest, and CLEARLY Christ says this couldn't happen "unless" He first bound the strong man." i.e., this deliverance of the captivity couldn't happen before Satan was bound. Only then could we (the spoil, his captives) be freed from our captivity to bondage of sin. Selah.
You falsely claim I am in spiritual captivity to sin??!? And you think you are free while you listen to charlatans who push a FALSE Pre-trib Rapture lie?As you do not understand Davy, so they also did not understand that they were in spiritual captivity to sin, and their Messiah had already come to free that captivity. But all they could see was physical captivity they wanted liberty from, and a physical kingdom they wanted to be established on this sin-cursed earth. That was never the prophecy in view. Christ fulfilled it all. But according to His true proverb, He "FIRST" He had to bind Satan. Then and only then could the captivity be set free. And that is exactly what Christ did, He destroyed the Devil that we (his spoil) would no longer be subject to that bondage to sin. And He did it through His death and resurrection.
Nope! Satan is NOT in chains locked in the pit yet today. I've already shown how that is lie, because the Rev.20:1-4 Scripture proves what I say.He put Satan, a spirit, under lock, chain, and key so that we might be delivered from bondage unto salvation. And when all are saved who are to be saved, that binding with chain (Revelation 20) will be loosed. But not one second before all Israel are Sealed. This is the purpose of Satan's binding!
You already forgot that Satan was bound for the sake of the Elect which is why he still roams around as a lion trying to stop salvation gospel from reaching God's Elect.
It's actually the other way around, you try to force the Scripture to say something besides what is written. Imagine if you did something like in the medical field?LOL. You are not being logically or rather spiritually blind.
Satan is a spirit. Will he be bound with physical chains and key in a physical "pit prison" somewhere? You do not get it. Jesus Christ, a Messenger (aggelos) from heaven Satan cannot thwart the building of the Lord's New Testament temple with the chosen of then ations, because he has been bound from doing so! That power of binding is in the symbolism of the key, the chain, and the Messenger from Heaven!
Oh, I can show you, that's not a problem. Getting you to understand your error is another matter.You've yet to prove that false witness of yours.
As a matter of fact, I don't see you post that much actual Bible Scripture at all! and when you do, you don't even know how to quote it properly!
So like I said, go ahead, show me... where I'm wrong in Scripture in my posts you falsely make your claim about. I challenge you.
Which totally proves my point. Jesus has returned. Is it the Second Coming where all eyes see the coming of the Lord and He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth? No.Uh, where does it say in Rev.4 and 5 there was a PRE TRIB RAPTURE?
Did you NOT know that the rewards like the crowns given by Christ are ONLY handed out at His coming?
You are proving my point. Jesus has returned for the Church, before the tribulation.2 Tim 4:8
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
KJV
1 Peter 5:4
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
KJV
This is the Second Advent when Jesus sets up His kingdom on earth. It has nothing to do with the rapture of the Church, nor is it the Second Coming which occurs at the 6th seal.7th Trumpet Timing When Jesus Comes:
Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV
This is what Davy says and understands. This is not what the Word says.If the crown reward is not given until the day Jesus returns, then what TIMING does that mean John was being shown in those Revelation 4 and Revelation 5 Chapters?
Those chapters are a vision of AFTER... Christ had already returned! And BOTH Chapters 4 & 5 are of the SAME vision timing!
Exactly proving my point. He returns for His bride before the tribulation and hour of testing. He opens a door the no man can open or shut.The following is ALL... for AFTER Jesus has returned in the future...
Rev 5:9-13
9 And they sung a new song, saying, "Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Do you NOT see that "and hast redeemed us to God" phrase showing that Christ had already returned at that point?
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
KJV
Are we right now, already made those "kings and priests". NO! not yet! That ONLY will happen for Christ's Faithful when He returns!
I feel sorry for those that do not understand that He is coming in an hour that they think not.(I really do feel sorry for brethren that have not studied enough of their Bible, including the Old Testament prophets, in order to recognize the timelines in God's written Word. And the Book of Revelation is one of the strongest examples of fast moving timelines. A timeline change can happen even within a single verse, so the Bible student must really be on their toes. And the Bible student who has not first understood this type of literature that occurs ONLY in God's written Word, they can easily be fooled by those timelines, which is what Apostle Paul was talking about with 'rightly dividing the Word of Truth'.)
I don't have a pre trib teacher. I just read the Word. Most of the teachers I've heard haven't figured out the difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God.Your own Pre-trib Rapture preachers even like to use that "as a thief in the night" metaphor about the day of Christ's coming! But they simple try to push the wrong... time for Christ's return to gather His Church. There is ONLY one time of return by Jesus, and that is "Immediately after the tribulation..." like He said in Matthew 24:29-31. And that will be the "day of the Lord".
And like Jesus showed in Matthew 13, the harvest time is WHEN He will gather BOTH the tares, and His wheat (saints).
Matt 13:36-43
36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and His disciples came unto Him, saying, "Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."
37 He answered and said unto them, "He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
KJV
Matt 13:49
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
KJV
What you say even goes directly... opposite of what Jesus said above. The "tares" are gathered FIRST, and then His Righteous will shine forth in His future Kingdom!
Looks like you are trying to force... that key into a hole that won't fit.Look, Satan cannot be bound with a literal chain of iron, Right? Or locked in a pit with a literal brass key? No, Satan is a spirit being which cannotbe bound by literal earthly devices or places. The words here of keys and chains have SPIRITUAL SIGNIFICANCE! The key here symbolizes that the Messenger (Jesus) has the right and authority to bind and loose. THis messenger come down from Heaven holds the right and authority and means (key) to bind Satan. The signification being, "He who holds the key, holds the ability and authority to restrain Satan." Selah!
There is not a single verse that says that the Church is raptured after the tribulation.The church is raptured AFTER the trib (GT), not before it. Paul and Christ both teach this. Never is there a coming of Christ or a rapture before the trib.
The rapture to heaven idea comes from the Bible.People believe in a ‘rapture to heaven’, pre, mid, post, or anytime; which shows up the lack of Biblical support and the inability of rapture believers to agree on practically any aspect of that theory.
Where does this idea come from?
Lots of nice quotes. Now go back and check the context as these are all out of context.It isn’t stated anywhere in the Bible and those who promote it must use inferences and assumptions to make verses fit their belief.
But when Jesus Himself tells us that such an idea is impossible, then we know it is just a fable, a false theory, like Paul says; will be prevalent in the latter days. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
Jesus said:
John 3:13 No one has gone up to heaven, except the One who came down from there…
John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
Rev 19Evidence enough that people never go to heaven. Only their souls, after death, go back to the One who made them, where they unconsciously await the Great White Throne Judgement at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
The whole theory of a rapture to heaven contradicts what we are told that the Lord will do for His people; - protection during the terrible times ahead. Isaiah 41:18, Psalms 91; Isaiah 43:2, 2 Peter 2:9, +
And for those who do stand firm in their faith, who call upon His Name when disaster strikes, there is the promise of tremendous blessings, spiritual and physical to every faithful Christian.
Nope! that is you ADDING... to God's Word.
Satan is NOT bound until the day of Jesus' future return, as shown in Revelation 20...
Rev 20:1-4
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
KJV
Verse 4 reveals what timing... Satan is put in those chains and locked in his pit prison.
That rider on the white horse of Revelation 6:1-2 is NOT... Lord Jesus Christ.
That rider on the 1st Seal represents the coming Antichrist!
The reason you don't understand that is because those charlatans you listen to have not taught you that the Antichrist comes first to PLAY Jesus Christ.
That false one comes first working great signs and wonders and miracles to deceive the whole world, as written!
Therefore, that 1st Seal rider of Rev.6 TRIES to mimic Jesus coming on a white horse of Rev.19.
But that ain't... Jesus on that 1st Seal.
Per Rev.19 Jesus Christ comes having MANY crowns, and wielding a sword, not a bow of cheap fabric (toxon per the Greek of Rev.6:2).