Fate vs. faith

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Stranger

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perrero

I get this stuff from the Bible. If we meet in the yonder, so be it. If we lay down our lives, so be it. "

You are still a mess concrning doctrine. Deep stuff.

Stranger
 
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skypair

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Thus 'offspring' here speaks to the physical. It does not mean that all are children of God. It does not mean that all are of God. They are all offspring in that they are all of one blood going all the way back to Adam.
I beg to differ. Why do we call it "born again" when we are reborn of the Spirit? It is because we were once born in relationship to God. That relationship was lost on account of our sin (Ezek 18:20).

Dispensationalism calls this initial relationship as having an "untested positive predisposition towards God." That is just a fancy way of saying that there is a relationship there that becomes broken through sin (the "test").

And let's face it, stranger .. the only spiritual things we have at birth is instincts — and one of those is to know God, Ecc 3:11. We have no knowledge, no guilt, no faith, etc. at birth, right? How is it you attach "total depravity" to a person's innate soul?

skypair
 

Stranger

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I beg to differ. Why do we call it "born again" when we are reborn of the Spirit? It is because we were once born in relationship to God. That relationship was lost on account of our sin (Ezek 18:20).

Dispensationalism calls this initial relationship as having an "untested positive predisposition towards God." That is just a fancy way of saying that there is a relationship there that becomes broken through sin (the "test").

And let's face it, stranger .. the only spiritual things we have at birth is instincts — and one of those is to know God, Ecc 3:11. We have no knowledge, no guilt, no faith, etc. at birth, right? How is it you attach "total depravity" to a person's innate soul?

skypair

I believe we call it 'born again' in reference to our physical birth. That was our first birth. We then need to be born again. No one born was in a saved or right relationship with God. And Adam and Eve were not born. I guess it depends on your view or original sin. I believe all are born sinners due to Adams sin. Thus we all need to be born again.

I don't think I understand your last question.

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skypair

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No one born was in a saved or right relationship with God. And Adam and Eve were not born. I guess it depends on your view or original sin. I believe all are born sinners due to Adams sin. Thus we all need to be born again.
Hi, stranger. We are, indeed, born in relationship with God -- the same relationship as Adam in his creation. God didn't change the spiritual pattern .. and Adam's fall simply changed the physical pattern. Rather than being born not knowing of our nakedness, our FLESH, we are born a) aware of our flesh and its needs and b) not the least bit aware of God.

And you see, this is why God loves every person who was ever born. Think about your own kids (if you have some). You love them .. they are "mini-You's," right? With so much potential -- if they will only obey you, right? But we don't, do we.

As to the question: If I understand you right, you don't know the difference between your soul and your spirit. Your soul consists of your "heart" and your "conscience." These combined make up your character, your personality, who you are. These come from things LEARNED through living day-by-day. We are not born with comprehension of anything -- neither good nor evil. Therefore, your conscience cannot be guilty of sin, can it? And your heart cannot desire to sin .. so there is no "sin nature" either. Does that answer your question?

skypair
 

Stranger

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Hi, stranger. We are, indeed, born in relationship with God -- the same relationship as Adam in his creation. God didn't change the spiritual pattern .. and Adam's fall simply changed the physical pattern. Rather than being born not knowing of our nakedness, our FLESH, we are born a) aware of our flesh and its needs and b) not the least bit aware of God.

And you see, this is why God loves every person who was ever born. Think about your own kids (if you have some). You love them .. they are "mini-You's," right? With so much potential -- if they will only obey you, right? But we don't, do we.

As to the question: If I understand you right, you don't know the difference between your soul and your spirit. Your soul consists of your "heart" and your "conscience." These combined make up your character, your personality, who you are. These come from things LEARNED through living day-by-day. We are not born with comprehension of anything -- neither good nor evil. Therefore, your conscience cannot be guilty of sin, can it? And your heart cannot desire to sin .. so there is no "sin nature" either. Does that answer your question?

skypair

No, I disagree. When we are born, we are born in a fallen state, due to Adams sin. Our relationship with God at that time is apart from Him. We have no personal relationship with Him. Adams fall definitely changed the spiritual and physical condition of Adam and Eve. Now death entered, spiritual death first, and then the body dies later.

Where is your Scripture that God loves every person born?

I know the difference between soul and spirit. Apparently you don't as you don't give any explanation as to that difference. You simply want to give your explanation of the soul.

You're born guilty of sin because of Adams transgression. You are born with a sin nature you inherited from Adam. Thus you do desire to sin. Thus your conscience convicts you of sin.

Your statements reveal how off you are. And they reveal why I had questions about your statements.

Stranger
 
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bbyrd009

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No, I disagree. When we are born, we are born in a fallen state, due to Adams sin. Our relationship with God at that time is apart from Him. We have no personal relationship with Him Adams fall definitely changed the spiritual and physical condition of Adam and Eve. Now death entered, spiritual death first, and then the body dies later.

Where is your Scripture that God loves every person born?

I know the difference between soul and spirit. Apparently you don't as you don't give any explanation as to that difference. You simply want to give your explanation of the soul.

Your born guilty of sin because of Adams transgression. You are born with a sin nature you inherited from Adam. Thus you do desire to sin. Thus your conscience convicts you of sin.

Your statements reveal how off you are. And they reveal why I had questions about your statements.

Stranger
yikes. This from the guy whose grandson is the high school arms dealer, lol.

You were not born in a fallen state, and you have no basis for believing this. Original Sin is crap, and "from their youth" is as close as you can get to pinning sin on someone, but go ahead and give it a try if you like.
 
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skypair

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No, I disagree. When we are born, we are born in a fallen state, due to Adams sin. Our relationship with God at that time is apart from Him. We have no personal relationship with Him.
Then what does it mean to you that we are His "offspring?" (Acts 17:26-28)

Where is your Scripture that God loves every person born?
Maybe you have heard it .. Jn 3:16 .. "For God so loved the WORLD...?"

You simply want to give your explanation of the soul.
Your spirit is your MIND, EMOTIONS, and WILL .. your soul is your HEART and conscience. Happy now?

You're born guilty of sin because of Adams transgression. You are born with a sin nature you inherited from Adam. Thus you do desire to sin. Thus your conscience convicts you of sin.
Stranger .. I don't even know what sin is at birth. It is IMPOSSIBLE, then, for the sin nature to precede sin. We have to know we are doing wrong and do it anyway before our "nature," our character, becomes perverted into a sin nature.

Your statements reveal how off you are.
Well, obviously the same can be said about you, reference me. But if you are going to say that we are not God's "offspring" (not "creation," offspring -- born of Him in some way), you are not going to understand the truth about the nature you were born with.

skypair
 

Stranger

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Then what does it mean to you that we are His "offspring?" (Acts 17:26-28)


Maybe you have heard it .. Jn 3:16 .. "For God so loved the WORLD...?"


Your spirit is your MIND, EMOTIONS, and WILL .. your soul is your HEART and conscience. Happy now?


Stranger .. I don't even know what sin is at birth. It is IMPOSSIBLE, then, for the sin nature to precede sin. We have to know we are doing wrong and do it anyway before our "nature," our character, becomes perverted into a sin nature.


Well, obviously the same can be said about you, reference me. But if you are going to say that we are not God's "offspring" (not "creation," offspring -- born of Him in some way), you are not going to understand the truth about the nature you were born with.

skypair

I already told you in post #79 about what 'offspring' means.

Yes, I have heard of it. (John 3:16) is talking about the world, not every individual. If you want to use that verse to prove God loves everybody, then we as believers are not to love anybody. (1John 2:15) "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."

Irregardless how you or anyone wants to define body, soul, and spirit, it doesn't matter. Your whole body, soul, and spirit, were fallen at birth.

It doesn't matter what you knew at birth. You were born a sinner.

Again, I explained 'offspring' in post #79.

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bbyrd009

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You were born a sinner.
no, you were not born a sinner, with all due respect, that is a bald faced lie that you are just repeating, and you have no Scripture to back it up. Babies do not sin. You cannot sin until you have the Law.

i am not meaning to be fractious with you, but this is part and parcel with your other beliefs, Stranger, those of Christians needing guns, and needing to fear some worldly group, "liberals" i think it was in this case, etc.
 
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skypair

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I already told you in post #79 about what 'offspring' means.
Did you "create" your children .. or did you procreate them? Yes, the physical pattern was created by God from Adam, but the spiritual pattern was procreated by God making them His "offspring" in so far as their birth is concerned.

Yes, I have heard of it. (John 3:16) is talking about the world, not every individual. If you want to use that verse to prove God loves everybody, then we as believers are not to love anybody. (1John 2:15) "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him."
Pity the man who let's himself get bound and fettered with a false theology. You KNOW that those two passages are not the same. One speaks of the humans in the world and the other the world system. Even you don't believe that God loves the world system .. or do you?

Irregardless how you or anyone wants to define body, soul, and spirit, it doesn't matter. Your whole body, soul, and spirit, were fallen at birth.

It doesn't matter what you knew at birth. You were born a sinner.
Apparently you don't understand the concept of "sinner." A sinner is a person who actually SINS. And we know from Ezek 18 that the children do not bear the sins of their parents. We know, too, that sin is a learned behavior, stranger. In fact, we sin unintentionally even before we understand the concept, Ro 7:8. That is, those looking at your behavior may call you a sinner; but you, yourself, have no awareness of it, no sin guilt, and no sin nature (ergo, no "spiritual death") as a result of unintentional sin.

skypair
 

Stranger

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Did you "create" your children .. or did you procreate them? Yes, the physical pattern was created by God from Adam, but the spiritual pattern was procreated by God making them His "offspring" in so far as their birth is concerned.


Pity the man who let's himself get bound and fettered with a false theology. You KNOW that those two passages are not the same. One speaks of the humans in the world and the other the world system. Even you don't believe that God loves the world system .. or do you?


Apparently you don't understand the concept of "sinner." A sinner is a person who actually SINS. And we know from Ezek 18 that the children do not bear the sins of their parents. We know, too, that sin is a learned behavior, stranger. In fact, we sin unintentionally even before we understand the concept, Ro 7:8. That is, those looking at your behavior may call you a sinner; but you, yourself, have no awareness of it, no sin guilt, and no sin nature (ergo, no "spiritual death") as a result of unintentional sin.

skypair

Says 'you', concerning offspring. What I did was show you that 'offspring' speaks to being created by one blood. Now you move into the spiritual interpretation with nothing. No verses. Just your 'spiritual' opinion.

I know those two passages speak of the same 'world'. Look it up. I didn't say God didn't love the world. He does. I just said you can't make 'world', speak to everyone. Which is what you are doing. And the passage I gave in (1John 2:15) prove it.

Sorry, sin is not learned. It is inherited. You are born spiritually dead and a sinner. You inherited it from Adam.

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skypair

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Says 'you', concerning offspring. What I did was show you that 'offspring' speaks to being created by one blood.
That is "creation." What Acts 17:27-28 is talking about is birth .. our first birth.

Just your 'spiritual' opinion.
Do you not see the difference between being created and being born? The scriptures tell us to realize this and then that we must be "born again."

I know those two passages speak of the same 'world'. Look it up. I didn't say God didn't love the world. He does. I just said you can't make 'world', speak to everyone. Which is what you are doing. And the passage I gave in (1John 2:15) prove it.
So let me get this straight .. we are NOT to love the world that God DOES love? You're joking, right?

Sorry, sin is not learned. It is inherited. You are born spiritually dead and a sinner. You inherited it from Adam.
Every thought and behavior is learned .. well, except our instincts. And those instincts are godly — survival and life. Even animals exhibit this. There is certainly no instinct towards death which is what you are suggesting.

skypair
 

Stranger

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That is "creation." What Acts 17:27-28 is talking about is birth .. our first birth.


Do you not see the difference between being created and being born? The scriptures tell us to realize this and then that we must be "born again."


So let me get this straight .. we are NOT to love the world that God DOES love? You're joking, right?


Every thought and behavior is learned .. well, except our instincts. And those instincts are godly — survival and life. Even animals exhibit this. There is certainly no instinct towards death which is what you are suggesting.

skypair

Well, I have been saying that the term 'offspring' does not speak to all being the children of God. It speaks to our being linked in one blood back to Adam. So, being 'offspring' does not make one a child of God. Being born in Adam does not make one a child of God.

Well, though we be born again, are we not created and new creatures in Christ. I'm not sure what the problem is.

Ask God if He is joking, not me. Did you read the verses? (John 3:16) and (1John 2:15)

I don't know what you mean by an instinct toward death. Everyone is born a sinner, separated from God. Dead to God. We do what we do because of who we are. Not, we are who we are because of what we do.

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Abiding Grace

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Hi, stranger. We are, indeed, born in relationship with God -- the same relationship as Adam in his creation. God didn't change the spiritual pattern .. and Adam's fall simply changed the physical pattern. Rather than being born not knowing of our nakedness, our FLESH, we are born a) aware of our flesh and its needs and b) not the least bit aware of God.

And you see, this is why God loves every person who was ever born. Think about your own kids (if you have some). You love them .. they are "mini-You's," right? With so much potential -- if they will only obey you, right? But we don't, do we.

As to the question: If I understand you right, you don't know the difference between your soul and your spirit. Your soul consists of your "heart" and your "conscience." These combined make up your character, your personality, who you are. These come from things LEARNED through living day-by-day. We are not born with comprehension of anything -- neither good nor evil. Therefore, your conscience cannot be guilty of sin, can it? And your heart cannot desire to sin .. so there is no "sin nature" either. Does that answer your question?

skypair

Sorry skypair. The Bible teaches no such thing. It teaches that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

We are born sinful. Stranger is correct. The scriptures teach this:

Romans 5:12English Standard Version (ESV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—



Genesis 6:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Psalm 51:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

Ecclesiastes 9:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jeremiah 17:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?

Romans 3:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”

Isaiah 53:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

Proverbs 14:12English Standard Version (ESV)

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

John 8:43English Standard Version (ESV)

43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:7English Standard Version (ESV)

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.


Your explanation of soul and spirit is Unbiblical.
 
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