Fate vs. faith

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skypair

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Are you questioning my salvation? The Bible teaches that we are all born in sin and therefore not capable of accepting the gospel.
Not directly, of course. I have no idea what you did before you became a Calvinist. All I know is 1) OSAS and 2) right now you are declaring a false narrative. Everyone who hears that gospel of Jesus Christ can understand it. What causes most to not be saved is a) they don't want/choose to believe it or b) they don't know HOW to obey it.

All your claim comes to is that you were given special understanding in order to obey the gospel and be saved by simply believing it. Obedience to the gospel calls for repentance from sin and self and turning to God in a commitment of the heart, Acts 26:20, and it is commanded of us in order to be saved (Acts 2:38, 17:30). And don't fool yourself, you believed it because you wanted/chose to believe it. Self interest was stronger than total depravity.
 

skypair

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I believed, I did not choose to believe, and I'm saved.
OK., what I am getting from you is that your "believing" was the miracle of salvation and you accept the Calvinist idea of passive salvation in which belief alone saves. That's a dangerous place to be in because your mind (belief) is not your heart (faith). I can certainly understand how believing seemed "irresistible" .. how it all made sense to you. But that doesn't save. How could it. What you believe could have been wrong — even a lie of the devil that sounded so much like the truth that you fell for it.

That is why God calls for us to obey .. so that He can prove to us personally in our hearts that what we believed is true and something that we can have faith in. So that even if you don't think you chose to believe, you would have to choose to obey by repenting to Him "calling on the name of the Lord" for salvation.

skypair
 
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skypair

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In all my years as a Christian I have never heard of a person who throws out scripture because they don't like what it teaches.
I'm not throwing out scripture .. I am saying that you cannot discern between the Calvinist gospel and the Biblical gospel. Clearly, unequivocally the gospel at Pentecost was the gospel of Jesus Christ that we should ALL believe and ALL obey unto salvation. Do you have a problem with that?

skypair
 

tabletalk

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OK., what I am getting from you is that your "believing" was the miracle of salvation and you accept the Calvinist idea of passive salvation in which belief alone saves. That's a dangerous place to be in because your mind (belief) is not your heart (faith). I can certainly understand how believing seemed "irresistible" .. how it all made sense to you. But that doesn't save. How could it. What you believe could have been wrong — even a lie of the devil that sounded so much like the truth that you fell for it.

That is why God calls for us to obey .. so that He can prove to us personally in our hearts that what we believed is true and something that we can have faith in. So that even if you don't think you chose to believe, you would have to choose to obey by repenting to Him "calling on the name of the Lord" for salvation.

skypair

I do not know if "belief alone saves". But faith alone justifies.
I agree that if I only "believed Jesus Christ", and obedience to His commands does not follow, then it is a "dangerous place to be". But in my case I "choose to obey by repenting to Him ""calling on the name of the Lord"" for salvation" , as you said above.
 

skypair

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I do not know if "belief alone saves". But faith alone justifies.
I agree that if I only "believed Jesus Christ", and obedience to His commands does not follow, then it is a "dangerous place to be". But in my case I "choose to obey by repenting to Him ""calling on the name of the Lord"" for salvation" , as you said above.
OK. The first point above regarding belief and faith is that belief is not faith. Many folks think that simply believing the gospel saves. Belief = assent, agreement that something is true. Faith means complete trust (backed by proof, Heb 11:1) IN someone or something.

Thank you for your "good profession." :) It means a lot to know who we are conversing with.

skypair
 

perrero

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I don't see a problem here. The elect choose life, the others do not. This is completely in keeping with other scripture.

Here lies the problem. We have a verse that in no way speaks of election or pre-destination because if such a thing existed God would not toy with His people asking them to choose when He knows full well what the outcome is.
But in order to make the verse fit into your theology, you add the word elect and say "I don't see a problem".

Well to me that's a major problem, because this is how Calvin developed his heresy.

Still waiting for that verse.
We can put this to bed, you no full well the verse doesn't exist in the exact way you would want it stated.

Also, just for context, I am not an Armenian follower, Armenianism is only watered down Calvinism or gutless Calvinism. I believe in the Openness of God, but that's a whole other issue.
 
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Abiding Grace

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Here lies the problem. We have a verse that in no way speaks of election or pre-destination because if such a thing existed God would not toy with His people asking them to choose when He knows full well what the outcome is.
But in order to make the verse fit into your theology, you add the word elect and say "I don't see a problem".

Well to me that's a major problem, because this is how Calvin developed his heresy.


We can put this to bed, you no full well the verse doesn't exist in the exact way you would want it stated.

Also, just for context, I am not an Armenian follower, Armenianism is only watered down Calvinism or gutless Calvinism. I believe in the Openness of God, but that's a whole other issue.

Red color mine.

Still speaking for God?

Where in Armenia do you come from? Armenia - Wikipedia

I'm quite familiar with what you propose to believe in. I believe it is heresy, but recognize you have freedom to believe whatever you wish.

The 'Openness of God' and the Future of Evangelical Theology - AlbertMohler.com

I believe the Bible when I say that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

I see you ducked my question about God allowing people to born who will never come to Him. But you won't answer and I understand why.

All I can do is pray for you, that God will intervene and give you joy, and everlasting peace.
 

perrero

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I get this a lot. We think that God has operate in our realm, instead of vice-versa. Arminians need to answer a similar question. If God is omniscient (and He is) Why does He allow people, whom he knows, will never be saved to be born? Is He not powerful enough to prevent those births?

Still waiting for that verse.

Do you believe that NOTHING is impossible to God? If yes, here is a possibility.
In order for God to have a true relationship of love between Him and His creatures, he cannot created them as robots. This defeats the purpose. Neither can He pre-destine their fate without choice. free will, as this would be the same thing.
Instead, He chooses to create them with bona-fide free will means He chooses not to know there decisions until those decisions actually come into being at that very moment in time. The heart reveals those choices even before they are put into action. No choice is threatening to Him as He is omnipotent and He even says that He can take anything and turn it into good for those who love him.

You will say to me that this flies in the face of God's Omniscience. What is God's omniscience but knowing all that is knowable? Until He, God Himself, decides to do something, even His decision cannot be known, else He is a robot Himself. Everything is pre-destined even for Him. He is therefore on a treadmill incapable of changing things, adjusting, planning or being creative other than what's on the treadmill.

Yes, yes, God knows the beginning and the end. But that's not the beginning and the end of Himself, He has no beginning and end. God knows the beginning and end of this world because He has already made plans for it. The book of Revelation tells what God's plans are for the end times, not what God has seen that is going to happen.

You believe in God, but you define his attributes according to Zeus, the Greek God. But the true God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He is a God of the present not of the future. I AM that I AM.
Mind you God can prophecy to the future, not because He has seen it as if He was outside of Himself watching Himself perform His prophecies, but because He has made the plans to do so and they will come to pass. And since nothing is impossible to Him they will come to pass.

I'll stop here because it's a lot to digest.
 

perrero

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I see you ducked my question about God allowing people to born who will never come to Him. But you won't answer and I understand why.

If God truly gives free will, then there is no way of knowing what that child will choose until the time comes for him to choose. It's not complicated. Everyone created has been given the choice to turn to God or not, like Adam. The Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement, and we respond with humility and faith or with disdain and unbelief.

Answer me this, according to your belief, where do all aborted children go? Heaven or Hell and why?
 

Sword

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how many hear the Word of God as rubbish according to them,
I know you are not talking about Christians, But the fact is Christians here Gods truth often and reject it often aswell.
 

Abiding Grace

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If God truly gives free will, then there is no way of knowing what that child will choose until the time comes for him to choose. It's not complicated. Everyone created has been given the choice to turn to God or not, like Adam. The Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement, and we respond with humility and faith or with disdain and unbelief.

Answer me this, according to your belief, where do all aborted children go? Heaven or Hell and why?

Yet, the Bible knows none of what you say.
 

perrero

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If God truly gives free will, then there is no way of knowing what that child will choose until the time comes for him to choose. It's not complicated. Everyone created has been given the choice to turn to God or not, like Adam. The Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement, and we respond with humility and faith or with disdain and unbelief.

Answer me this, according to your belief, where do all aborted children go? Heaven or Hell and why?

I see you avoid my questions also.
So we'll leave it at that.
 

Stranger

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I see you avoid my questions also.
So we'll leave it at that.

God doesn't give 'free' will. There is no 'free will'. Man has a will. But it isn't free. Only God has free will.

You ask where do aborted children go? They go wherever they are children of. Some of God, and go to Heaven. Some of Satan and go to hell. God knows.

Stranger
 

perrero

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God doesn't give 'free' will. There is no 'free will'. Man has a will. But it isn't free. Only God has free will.

You ask where do aborted children go? They go wherever they are children of. Some of God, and go to Heaven. Some of Satan and go to hell. God knows.

Stranger
WOW! This is so evil and twisted, I cannot believe what I'm reading. I pray that someday God reveals to you how He is a God of Love and not the sadistic one you portray.
It is no wonder that their are so many unbelievers and atheists when you try to pull that wool over their eyes.
 

Stranger

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WOW! This is so evil and twisted, I cannot believe what I'm reading. I pray that someday God reveals to you how He is a God of Love and not the sadistic one you portray.
It is no wonder that their are so many unbelievers and atheists when you try to pull that wool over their eyes.

Believe it. I know God is love. But He is not your Grandma.

People are not unbelievers because of my understanding of God. They are unbelievers because they are not of God and want nothing to do with Him. And I don't try and pull wool over their eyes. I just witness to them about Jesus Christ.

You say that what I said is evil and sadistic, without pursuing a discussion in Scripture, or offering any Scripture to prove me wrong. Which means no Scripture will change your mind.

WOW.

Stranger
 

perrero

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Believe it. I know God is love. But He is not your Grandma.

People are not unbelievers because of my understanding of God. They are unbelievers because they are not of God and want nothing to do with Him. And I don't try and pull wool over their eyes. I just witness to them about Jesus Christ.

Stranger

If you know that God is love, then you know that He has created all of us in HIS image, not some of us of God and others, many more for that matter, as children of the Devil.
There is no evil in God and therefore He cannot create anything evil. HE doesn't even temp us, let alone creating unborn children destined to die an eternity in hell.
I hope you're not pre-destined to hell, because even though you're saved now something is going to go awry and you'll be headed for the pit.
 

Stranger

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If you know that God is love, then you know that He has created all of us in HIS image, not some of us of God and others, many more for that matter, as children of the Devil.
There is no evil in God and therefore He cannot create anything evil. HE doesn't even temp us, let alone creating unborn children destined to die an eternity in hell.
I hope you're not pre-destined to hell, because even though you're saved now something is going to go awry and you'll be headed for the pit.

Yes man is created in the image of God. Which means every on born of Adam bears that image. That doesn't mean everyone born is of God.

In (John 3:3) the phrase 'born again' means 'from above'. So, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.."

Unless ones origin is correct, from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. But, if his origin is correct and he is from above, then he has the ability to enter which must come through the new birth. (John 3:5) "Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Note what Christ said in (John 10:26) when arguing with the Jews. "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." He didn't say you are not my sheep because you don't believe. He said you don't believe because you are not mine.

You misunderstand the elect and God's salvation. Though one is elect, of God, he still must be born again. As John said, he must be born of water and the Spirit. He still must enter the kingdom of God. As Peter says in (1Peter 1:3) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again...."

And once one is saved, does believe and is born again then his salvation is secure because it is from God. So, you see, there is no 'being saved' but not 'elect'. We witness to all because we don't know. But when one comes to Christ by faith, we can know they are saved and the elect.

I know there is no evil in God. God did create lucifer however. And he was a murderer from the beginning. Many things to consider.

Stranger
 

skypair

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Yes man is created in the image of God. Which means every on born of Adam bears that image. That doesn't mean everyone born is of God.
Acts 17:26-27 tells us that we are ALL His 'offspring' and that "in Him we live and breathe and have our being." This is speaking spiritually, of course. Physically, we are the offspring of our parents but they cannot pass their spirit or soul on to us except by teaching. And yes, they teach/train us to sin as well as to do good and know God.

In like manner, you had to learn how to be saved AND you had to learn "What shall we do" in order to be saved, Acts 2:37. The answer to that question is Acts 2:38 — "Repent…"

And let me just ask this: What do you have against obeying God's command?


skypair
 
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Stranger

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Acts 17:26-27 tells us that we are ALL His 'offspring' and that "in Him we live and breathe and have our being." This is speaking spiritually, of course. Physically, we are the offspring of our parents but they cannot pass their spirit or soul on to us except by teaching. And yes, they teach/train us to sin as well as to do good and know God.

In like manner, you had to learn how to be saved AND you had to learn "What shall we do" in order to be saved, Acts 2:37. The answer to that question is Acts 2:38 — "Repent…"

skypair

(Acts 17:26-27) is not speaking spiritually at all. It is speaking to all of mankind being created by God. That is why (26) says "And hath made of one blood all nations of men...." Thus 'offspring' here speaks to the physical. It does not mean that all are children of God. It does not mean that all are of God. They are all offspring in that they are all of one blood going all the way back to Adam.

Stranger
 

perrero

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Yes man is created in the image of God. Which means every on born of Adam bears that image. That doesn't mean everyone born is of God. [\QUOTE]

I like the way you contradict yourself in 2 sentences. 1) we bear the image of God. 2) We are all born of Adam so we bear the image of Adam. That's quite an interpretation, Man is created in the Image of GOD which means he bears the image of ADAM.
Unless ones origin is correct from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[\QUOTE]
Do you read what you write? Where do you get this stuff?

I know there is no evil in God. God did create lucifer however. And he was a murderer from the beginning. Many things to consider.
Stranger

God created a beautiful Archangel, name Lucifer, Son of the Morning! NOT Satan the Prince of Darkness.
Lucifer of his own volition chose to rebel against God.
For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the most High.

This was not coerce by God nor did He plant some kind of time bomb in Lucifer so that inevitably he would rebel.
If ,as you say, there is no evil in God then God cannot create evil.
James (3:12) Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
You're attributing to God something He says He cannot do.

So if you still think that God is capable of that kind evil behaviour, which is basically the Calvinist and Greek belief, then I have no more to say. We will both meet beyond, because neither belief will affect your salvation or mine, I through a benevolent God you through a cruel one. Mind you, as I said, your assurance is feeble, because if you're pre-destined to hell, somewhere down the road you will eventually turn to the dark side even though you claim salvation today.

I'll leave you with that and give you the final say, like most people on these forums when they get the last word in they probably feel vindicated.
 
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