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Fate vs. faith

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by skypair, May 10, 2017.

  1. skypair

    skypair Member

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    Not directly, of course. I have no idea what you did before you became a Calvinist. All I know is 1) OSAS and 2) right now you are declaring a false narrative. Everyone who hears that gospel of Jesus Christ can understand it. What causes most to not be saved is a) they don't want/choose to believe it or b) they don't know HOW to obey it.

    All your claim comes to is that you were given special understanding in order to obey the gospel and be saved by simply believing it. Obedience to the gospel calls for repentance from sin and self and turning to God in a commitment of the heart, Acts 26:20, and it is commanded of us in order to be saved (Acts 2:38, 17:30). And don't fool yourself, you believed it because you wanted/chose to believe it. Self interest was stronger than total depravity.
     
  2. skypair

    skypair Member

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    OK., what I am getting from you is that your "believing" was the miracle of salvation and you accept the Calvinist idea of passive salvation in which belief alone saves. That's a dangerous place to be in because your mind (belief) is not your heart (faith). I can certainly understand how believing seemed "irresistible" .. how it all made sense to you. But that doesn't save. How could it. What you believe could have been wrong — even a lie of the devil that sounded so much like the truth that you fell for it.

    That is why God calls for us to obey .. so that He can prove to us personally in our hearts that what we believed is true and something that we can have faith in. So that even if you don't think you chose to believe, you would have to choose to obey by repenting to Him "calling on the name of the Lord" for salvation.

    skypair
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  3. skypair

    skypair Member

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    I'm not throwing out scripture .. I am saying that you cannot discern between the Calvinist gospel and the Biblical gospel. Clearly, unequivocally the gospel at Pentecost was the gospel of Jesus Christ that we should ALL believe and ALL obey unto salvation. Do you have a problem with that?

    skypair
     
  4. tabletalk

    tabletalk Member

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    I do not know if "belief alone saves". But faith alone justifies.
    I agree that if I only "believed Jesus Christ", and obedience to His commands does not follow, then it is a "dangerous place to be". But in my case I "choose to obey by repenting to Him ""calling on the name of the Lord"" for salvation" , as you said above.
     
  5. skypair

    skypair Member

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    OK. The first point above regarding belief and faith is that belief is not faith. Many folks think that simply believing the gospel saves. Belief = assent, agreement that something is true. Faith means complete trust (backed by proof, Heb 11:1) IN someone or something.

    Thank you for your "good profession." :) It means a lot to know who we are conversing with.

    skypair
     
  6. perrero

    perrero Member

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    Here lies the problem. We have a verse that in no way speaks of election or pre-destination because if such a thing existed God would not toy with His people asking them to choose when He knows full well what the outcome is.
    But in order to make the verse fit into your theology, you add the word elect and say "I don't see a problem".

    Well to me that's a major problem, because this is how Calvin developed his heresy.

    We can put this to bed, you no full well the verse doesn't exist in the exact way you would want it stated.

    Also, just for context, I am not an Armenian follower, Armenianism is only watered down Calvinism or gutless Calvinism. I believe in the Openness of God, but that's a whole other issue.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2017
  7. Abiding Grace

    Abiding Grace Member

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    Red color mine.

    Still speaking for God?

    Where in Armenia do you come from? Armenia - Wikipedia

    I'm quite familiar with what you propose to believe in. I believe it is heresy, but recognize you have freedom to believe whatever you wish.

    The 'Openness of God' and the Future of Evangelical Theology - AlbertMohler.com

    I believe the Bible when I say that the elect were chosen before the foundation of the world.

    Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

    2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

    2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

    Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

    Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

    I see you ducked my question about God allowing people to born who will never come to Him. But you won't answer and I understand why.

    All I can do is pray for you, that God will intervene and give you joy, and everlasting peace.
     
  8. perrero

    perrero Member

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    Do you believe that NOTHING is impossible to God? If yes, here is a possibility.
    In order for God to have a true relationship of love between Him and His creatures, he cannot created them as robots. This defeats the purpose. Neither can He pre-destine their fate without choice. free will, as this would be the same thing.
    Instead, He chooses to create them with bona-fide free will means He chooses not to know there decisions until those decisions actually come into being at that very moment in time. The heart reveals those choices even before they are put into action. No choice is threatening to Him as He is omnipotent and He even says that He can take anything and turn it into good for those who love him.

    You will say to me that this flies in the face of God's Omniscience. What is God's omniscience but knowing all that is knowable? Until He, God Himself, decides to do something, even His decision cannot be known, else He is a robot Himself. Everything is pre-destined even for Him. He is therefore on a treadmill incapable of changing things, adjusting, planning or being creative other than what's on the treadmill.

    Yes, yes, God knows the beginning and the end. But that's not the beginning and the end of Himself, He has no beginning and end. God knows the beginning and end of this world because He has already made plans for it. The book of Revelation tells what God's plans are for the end times, not what God has seen that is going to happen.

    You believe in God, but you define his attributes according to Zeus, the Greek God. But the true God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He is a God of the present not of the future. I AM that I AM.
    Mind you God can prophecy to the future, not because He has seen it as if He was outside of Himself watching Himself perform His prophecies, but because He has made the plans to do so and they will come to pass. And since nothing is impossible to Him they will come to pass.

    I'll stop here because it's a lot to digest.
     
  9. perrero

    perrero Member

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    If God truly gives free will, then there is no way of knowing what that child will choose until the time comes for him to choose. It's not complicated. Everyone created has been given the choice to turn to God or not, like Adam. The Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement, and we respond with humility and faith or with disdain and unbelief.

    Answer me this, according to your belief, where do all aborted children go? Heaven or Hell and why?
     
  10. Sword

    Sword Active Member

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    I know you are not talking about Christians, But the fact is Christians here Gods truth often and reject it often aswell.
     
  11. Abiding Grace

    Abiding Grace Member

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    Yet, the Bible knows none of what you say.
     
  12. perrero

    perrero Member

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    I see you avoid my questions also.
    So we'll leave it at that.
     
  13. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    God doesn't give 'free' will. There is no 'free will'. Man has a will. But it isn't free. Only God has free will.

    You ask where do aborted children go? They go wherever they are children of. Some of God, and go to Heaven. Some of Satan and go to hell. God knows.

    Stranger
     
  14. perrero

    perrero Member

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    WOW! This is so evil and twisted, I cannot believe what I'm reading. I pray that someday God reveals to you how He is a God of Love and not the sadistic one you portray.
    It is no wonder that their are so many unbelievers and atheists when you try to pull that wool over their eyes.
     
  15. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Believe it. I know God is love. But He is not your Grandma.

    People are not unbelievers because of my understanding of God. They are unbelievers because they are not of God and want nothing to do with Him. And I don't try and pull wool over their eyes. I just witness to them about Jesus Christ.

    You say that what I said is evil and sadistic, without pursuing a discussion in Scripture, or offering any Scripture to prove me wrong. Which means no Scripture will change your mind.

    WOW.

    Stranger
     
  16. perrero

    perrero Member

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    If you know that God is love, then you know that He has created all of us in HIS image, not some of us of God and others, many more for that matter, as children of the Devil.
    There is no evil in God and therefore He cannot create anything evil. HE doesn't even temp us, let alone creating unborn children destined to die an eternity in hell.
    I hope you're not pre-destined to hell, because even though you're saved now something is going to go awry and you'll be headed for the pit.
     
  17. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Yes man is created in the image of God. Which means every on born of Adam bears that image. That doesn't mean everyone born is of God.

    In (John 3:3) the phrase 'born again' means 'from above'. So, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.."

    Unless ones origin is correct, from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God. But, if his origin is correct and he is from above, then he has the ability to enter which must come through the new birth. (John 3:5) "Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    Note what Christ said in (John 10:26) when arguing with the Jews. "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." He didn't say you are not my sheep because you don't believe. He said you don't believe because you are not mine.

    You misunderstand the elect and God's salvation. Though one is elect, of God, he still must be born again. As John said, he must be born of water and the Spirit. He still must enter the kingdom of God. As Peter says in (1Peter 1:3) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again...."

    And once one is saved, does believe and is born again then his salvation is secure because it is from God. So, you see, there is no 'being saved' but not 'elect'. We witness to all because we don't know. But when one comes to Christ by faith, we can know they are saved and the elect.

    I know there is no evil in God. God did create lucifer however. And he was a murderer from the beginning. Many things to consider.

    Stranger
     
  18. skypair

    skypair Member

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    Acts 17:26-27 tells us that we are ALL His 'offspring' and that "in Him we live and breathe and have our being." This is speaking spiritually, of course. Physically, we are the offspring of our parents but they cannot pass their spirit or soul on to us except by teaching. And yes, they teach/train us to sin as well as to do good and know God.

    In like manner, you had to learn how to be saved AND you had to learn "What shall we do" in order to be saved, Acts 2:37. The answer to that question is Acts 2:38 — "Repent…"

    And let me just ask this: What do you have against obeying God's command?


    skypair
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017 at 9:03 AM
  19. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    (Acts 17:26-27) is not speaking spiritually at all. It is speaking to all of mankind being created by God. That is why (26) says "And hath made of one blood all nations of men...." Thus 'offspring' here speaks to the physical. It does not mean that all are children of God. It does not mean that all are of God. They are all offspring in that they are all of one blood going all the way back to Adam.

    Stranger
     
  20. perrero

    perrero Member

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    Last edited: May 22, 2017