Fate vs. faith

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Abiding Grace

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Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I don't see a problem here. The elect choose life, the others do not. This is completely in keeping with other scripture.

I particularly love this verse in Deuteronomy. But of course, we know the outcome.

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 9:15-16: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Were you unable to find a New Testament passage that teaches free will unto salvation?

God Bless
 
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brionne

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Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

The Bible teaches that one cannot lose their salvation:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).

But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).

And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).

And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).

“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).

Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).

“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).

“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).

“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).

“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).

Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).

“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).

They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).

Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).

And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).

The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God". Hebrews 12:2


As to Revelation 2:5, there are many differing views, but none show a personal loss of salvation, but a rebuke to the church at Ephesus. Since the
scriptures I posted above call for God preserving us, finishing the good work that He began, it's unlikely that any true Christian would not repent.

Grace, faith and repentance are gifts.

Ephesians 2:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God.

Romans 12:3New American Standard Bible (NASB)
3 For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

2 Timothy 2:25New American Standard Bible (NASB)
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

God Bless!

I would apply all those verse to the faithful and it is absolutely without doubt that God will remain loyal to his promise of salvation to all who do.

But there is clearly a lot of warning about what will happen to those who do not remain faithful.
Adam was expelled from the Garden of Eden for failing to remain loyal to God. There is no salvation for ones who do no walk worthily of God.
 

perrero

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I don't see a problem here. The elect choose life, the others do not. This is completely in keeping with other scripture.

I particularly love this verse in Deuteronomy. But of course, we know the outcome.

Were you unable to find a New Testament passage that teaches free will unto salvation?

God Bless

You can't see free will in that verse because you interpret it according to your own theological stance. If I believed in what you believe I would have answered the same.

The problem is not the verses that we put forward it's our view or understanding of who God is in the first place. Everything He does flows from His character

If you truly believe that God is Love, (Exodus 34:6-7) "The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin... AND that he desires a truthful relationship with all created beings and that (2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.", then you cannot believe in the that God would create being of which some are pre-destined to heaven and twice as many are pre-destined to a burning in hell for eternity.
That contrary to the essence of God and who He says He is.
It is contrary to to verses above and it also contrary to (James 3:11) "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" Which is what you are saying that out of God proceeds both good and evil"
 

Abiding Grace

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You can't see free will in that verse because you interpret it according to your own theological stance. If I believed in what you believe I would have answered the same.

The problem is not the verses that we put forward it's our view or understanding of who God is in the first place. Everything He does flows from His character

If you truly believe that God is Love, (Exodus 34:6-7) "The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin... AND that he desires a truthful relationship with all created beings and that (2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.", then you cannot believe in the that God would create being of which some are pre-destined to heaven and twice as many are pre-destined to a burning in hell for eternity.
That contrary to the essence of God and who He says He is.
It is contrary to to verses above and it also contrary to (James 3:11) "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?" Which is what you are saying that out of God proceeds both good and evil"

Respectfully, I don't make up any private interpretation from the Bible. I believe what the Bible teaches regarding salvation. It says we were chosen before the foundation of the world. I have already provided the scripture.

I'm well aware of the trifecta Arminians and others use in an attempt to prove that reformed theology is wrong. 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 Timothy 2:4.

Let's clear up the verse you used first.


Just to clarify once again, God shows mercy upon whom he will show mercy.

You should also consider, that the Arminian God allows people to be born, whom He knows will not become followers of Him.

God Bless!
 

Abiding Grace

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I would apply all those verse to the faithful and it is absolutely without doubt that God will remain loyal to his promise of salvation to all who do.

But there is clearly a lot of warning about what will happen to those who do not remain faithful.
Adam was expelled from the Garden of Eden for failing to remain loyal to God. There is no salvation for ones who do no walk worthily of God.

brionne, I accept that what you believe is what you choose to believe. It's unlikely that I will change your mind given the scripture I provided. But it's not personal. I'm very sure that you are a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.

God Bless!
 

ScottA

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God chose you = FATE
You chose God = FAITH

So which are you saved by .. FATE alone or FAITH alone?
Neither really provide a complete understanding. Both suggest a time component, which with God, there is not. So, then, the idea of either, is just that...an idea. The two words describe what it would all look like if you spread it all out on a timeline...which God has done for our benefit. But this is all just a created non-reality, a manifestation of what is [actually] real on high...which is timeless. Just as God is "I am"...we also "are."
 

perrero

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BTW I'm not trying to change reformed Theology just Calvinistic heresy.

Like I said it is all about your view of God. If you are comfortable with a Supreme cruel God who elects some to Glory and damns others to hell then so be it. (Oh, let's not forget that hell was created for the devil not man)
You cannot come up with any reasonable explanation why God would do such a thing. You need to explain how the God of Exodus 34:6-7 would even consider what Calvinists posture. And maybe you have a video on James 3:11 that explains it in the light this heinous God.

I choose to believe in the Father God who (John 3:16) SO loved the world (not just the elect) that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. or God sent not his Son into the world (not just the elect)to condemn the world; but that the world (not just the elect) through him might be saved.

See, the key word is LOVE. Like a father who loves all his children, so does God love everyone He creates. He does not single out the majority for eternal damnation.
 

brionne

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brionne, I accept that what you believe is what you choose to believe. It's unlikely that I will change your mind given the scripture I provided. But it's not personal. I'm very sure that you are a devoted follower of Jesus Christ.

God Bless!

Its really a matter of taking all the bible into consideration because some things seem to contradict others.

Buts its certainly no contradiction that a christian is assured salvation, but at the same time can loose that salvation. Why? Because its as Matthew 24:13 states, 'He who has endured to the end is the one that will be saved'

Salvation is assured by God, IF we endure and remain loyal. There is always conditions on salvation. We can just look a the example of the Israelites to see that Gods salvation and protection was conditional on their obedience.

This should be a sobering thought to any sincere christian because we are given a responsibility toward our own salvation. We could loose out if we fail to understand that.
 

Abiding Grace

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Its really a matter of taking all the bible into consideration because some things seem to contradict others.

Buts its certainly no contradiction that a christian is assured salvation, but at the same time can loose that salvation. Why? Because its as Matthew 24:13 states, 'He who has endured to the end is the one that will be saved'

Salvation is assured by God, IF we endure and remain loyal. There is always conditions on salvation. We can just look a the example of the Israelites to see that Gods salvation and protection was conditional on their obedience.

This should be a sobering thought to any sincere christian because we are given a responsibility toward our own salvation. We could loose out if we fail to understand that.

The verse in Matthew is not a contradiction.

And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).



2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2English Standard Version)


35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35-39)

 

perrero

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The verse in Matthew is not a contradiction.

And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).



2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2English Standard Version)


35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:35-39)

Well when you don't believe in free will for Salvation, it is obvious you wouldn't believe in free will after Salvation. Once a robot always a robot.
 
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Abiding Grace

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Well when you don't believe in free will for Salvation, it is obvious you wouldn't believe in free will after Salvation. Once a robot always a robot.

That is your conclusion and of course, I disagree. Nevertheless scripture supports me.

John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

John 1:12,13: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Romans 9:15-16: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

I'm still waiting for you to show me the verses where we are told that we have free will unto salvation.


May God bless you richly!
 

skypair

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Revelation 21:22 doesn't speak about wars or battles. It's about the temple.
Rev 21 thru 22. You got the citation wrong, sir.

Simon didn't really believe or Jesus would have accepted him.
No. Peter told him what was wrong .. he needed to repent of this wickedness and pray God, if perhaps the thoughts of your heart may be forgiven thee." See, Simon believed with his mind just like you do .. but he was unchanged in his heart.

skypair
 

skypair

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I'm still waiting for you to show me the verses where we are told that we have free will unto salvation.
You are so busted! You, yourself, chose Christ according to your own will! The only thing necessary was for you to know the gospel of Jesus Christ "for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes…" (Ro 1:16) The gospel empowers the will so that it CAN choose, AG!

This is such a foolish argument to be having b/c if you didn't choose to believe, then there is no way you can be saved. You had no more "special power" to receive the gospel than any of the rest of us, AG! That's a fantasy born of the false "doctrines of men". I just marvel at the arrogance of those who say that they were able, above most men, to understand the gospel. Perhaps that is just a notch above Eve — you won't "be as God" .. you ARE as God before even hearing the gospel!

skypair
 

skypair

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brionne, I accept that what you believe is what you choose to believe.
As did YOU! As did ALL OF US! I guess what I am saying is that we didn't receive the same gospel you did. Ours is Acts 2:36-40 .. not Eph 2:8-10 or Jn 15:16 (Calvinism). Mainly ours says that, if you believe the gospel, then you must OBEY the gospel by repenting of your sin and calling on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation.

skypair
 

Abiding Grace

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You are so busted! You, yourself, chose Christ according to your own will! The only thing necessary was for you to know the gospel of Jesus Christ "for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes…" (Ro 1:16) The gospel empowers the will so that it CAN choose, AG!

This is such a foolish argument to be having b/c if you didn't choose to believe, then there is no way you can be saved. You had no more "special power" to receive the gospel than any of the rest of us, AG! That's a fantasy born of the false "doctrines of men". I just marvel at the arrogance of those who say that they were able, above most men, to understand the gospel. Perhaps that is just a notch above Eve — you won't "be as God" .. you ARE as God before even hearing the gospel!

skypair

Are you questioning my salvation? The Bible teaches that we are all born in sin and therefore not capable of accepting the gospel.

Romans 5:12English Standard Version (ESV)

Death in Adam, Life in Christ

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—



Genesis 6:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.



Psalm 51:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.



Psalm 58:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray from birth, speaking lies.



Ecclesiastes 9:3English Standard Version (ESV)

3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.



Jeremiah 17:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?



Romans 3:10-12English Standard Version (ESV)

10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”



Isaiah 53:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.



Proverbs 14:12English Standard Version (ESV)

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
but its end is the way to death.

John 8:43English Standard Version (ESV)

43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

Romans 8:7English Standard Version (ESV)

7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

No doctrines of men. It's all from the Bible.

Here is more:
John 15:16: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

John 1:12,13: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Romans 9:15-16: "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

Ephesians 1:4-5: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Ephesians 1:11: "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Philippians 1:29: "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"

1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

2 Timothy 1:9: "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 - 4 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

A lesson for us all:
Ephesians 4:29King James Version (KJV)

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
 

Abiding Grace

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As did YOU! As did ALL OF US! I guess what I am saying is that we didn't receive the same gospel you did. Ours is Acts 2:36-40 .. not Eph 2:8-10 or Jn 15:16 (Calvinism). Mainly ours says that, if you believe the gospel, then you must OBEY the gospel by repenting of your sin and calling on the name of Jesus Christ for salvation.

skypair

In all my years as a Christian I have never heard of a person who throws out scripture because they don't like what it teaches. If Dr. Walter Martin was still alive, I'd refer you. I miss him.

The Kingdom of the Cults: Walter Martin: 9780764227448: Amazon.com: Books

Many prayers for you and may God send blessings of joy your way.
 

tabletalk

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This is such a foolish argument to be having b/c if you didn't choose to believe, then there is no way you can be saved.

I believed, I did not choose to believe, and I'm saved. I choose all sorts of things now, but I did not choose initially to believe in Jesus Christ. So I think your statement is wrong.
 
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perrero

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I believed, I did not choose to believe, and I'm saved. I choose all sorts of things now, but I did not choose initially to believe in Jesus Christ. So I think your statement is wrong.

You did not choose to believe? Did someone force you to believe at gunpoint? Did you wake up some morning and realize that suddenly you believe.

Did not the Gospel reason to your mind and soul that you were wretched and needed forgiveness for that.
Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Did not the Spirit and the Word convict you of your need which led you to make a decision to get saved.
Or was it just the strike of a lightning bolt that put you on that road to redemption.

Every minute of your life you make decision that affect you one way or another. They are not coerced, injected, predetermined. They are decision made at that very moment and only at that time when faced with certain circumstance, choices, options, changes.
 
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perrero

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That is your conclusion and of course, I disagree. Nevertheless scripture supports me.
You disagree with my conclusion maybe you can explain to me how God is so loving and compassionate while he damns billions of people to hell before they are even brought into existence. What did those souls do to even deserve such damnation?
Make me understand.

I'm still waiting for you to show me the verses where we are told that we have free will unto salvation.
I've also quoted James 3:11 that you choose to ignore and Deut. 30:19. And I'm not going to list the plethora of Armenian verses used to counter yours. I've been around that block before. I find that when one cannot see that God is Love then the deception runs deep.
 

Abiding Grace

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You disagree with my conclusion maybe you can explain to me how God is so loving and compassionate while he damns billions of people to hell before they are even brought into existence. What did those souls do to even deserve such damnation?
Make me understand.


I've also quoted James 3:11 that you choose to ignore and Deut. 30:19. And I'm not going to list the plethora of Armenian verses used to counter yours. I've been around that block before. I find that when one cannot see that God is Love then the deception runs deep.

I get this a lot. We think that God has operate in our realm, instead of vice-versa. Arminians need to answer a similar question. If God is omniscient (and He is) Why does He allow people, whom he knows, will never be saved to be born? Is He not powerful enough to prevent those births?

Still waiting for that verse.

If the election of the Father is not universal and the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is not universal why is the atonement of Jesus universal?