Fear God or Presume acceptance

[Candidus]

Hello @Episkopos,

We are God's workmanship. He cannot fail.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

I see that you like Ephesians! Let's allow Paul to explain what he thinks this "workmanship" is, and what it results in!


1Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; 2and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

3But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not be partakers with them; 8for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light 9(for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), 10trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. 11Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; 12for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret. 13But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

14For this reason it says,
“Awake, sleeper,
And arise from the dead,
And Christ will shine on you.”

15Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16making the most of your time, because the days are evil. 17So then do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, 19speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord; 20always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father; 21and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. Ephesians 5.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, that was his reputation, but what did Jesus say of this dung? And John Calvin's false doctrines that remains to this day.

Revelation 3:1-3
“I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Those in the same 500 year era of Sardis, but along the lines of the false doctrine's opponent, Jacob Arminius, arose 200 years into it, and brought back the original doctrines of holiness. Men like John Wesley and Sir Nikolaus von Zinzendorf, though they themselves disagreed only on the doctrine of sanctification. Wesley believed it was life long, whereas von Zenzendorf believed it came with justification.

Revelation 3:4-
4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

P. S.
E, what is interesting is through my own study because of my bewilderment of today's teachings on sanctification and finding no biblical basis for it, I have for a few years now seen that sanctification was at justification, sort of back to back. It only means being set apart unto God, not a life-long process of overcoming sin. And last week while reading John Wesley's sermons and his disagreement with von Zinzendorf, who I had not heard of, I discovered that vZ had already come to the same conclusion that I came to. Wow! I'm not alone! Don't get me wrong, there is a life-long process, but it is not sanctification, but glorification - becoming more and more like Christ. Christ already took away our sin when we were born again, and filled us with Himself.

I see holiness only in the presence of God.

That we may be partakers of HIS holiness. As such holiness is only found in God. God is unique. So then to become holy...sanctified...one must enter INTO His presence.

This happens all at once...yes...as a visitation (God coming to us)...or else a translation (us going to visit God) into Zion...the kingdom of God. The lifelong process is growing into the full stature of Christ FROM that place..learning to remain in God's presence without offense or other desires getting in the way...IOW without sin.

Christ is being formed in they who abide in Christ through the trials and hardships of life. As we REMAIN IN Him...we grow more into His likeness...and this through travails and suffering.

We go from the hope of glory...into real glory.

So I agree that we are growing into His likeness for glory! The Christian walk is not about salvation...but about GLORY! \o/\o/\o/

To God be given all glory!

 

[CharismaticLady]

This happens all at once...yes...as a visitation (God coming to us)...or else a translation (us going to visit God) into Zion...the kingdom of God. The lifelong process is growing into the full stature of Christ FROM that place..learning to remain in God's presence without offense or other desires getting in the way...IOW without sin.

I agree, and holiness is nothing of our flesh. But we are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells us. And if the Spirit of Christ is not in us, we do not belong to Him.

We go from the hope of glory...into real glory.

Absolutely - glorification.

We may disagree on when this happens.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This part is exactly true.

Romans 6
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We must die, and we do die, being immersed into Christ.

Could you say we HAVE died?

I agree, a person must die to self. Otherwise, They will never seek Christ or come to him.

But, have we not been immersed in Christ? And through that immersion also, have been made alive in Christ?

(PS your translation, it says if we be dead. should it not say, if we have died?)

 

[DPMartin]

bottom line?

fear of God is what it says, just as love of God is what it says. these type of discussions are almost always based on one's own judgement of what fear and love of God ought to be. hence being the judge of what God ought to be and be like. and if you don't know where that takes you shame on you.

the bible is a testament and a witness. therefore a testimony of a people and their relationship with their God the Lord their God. therefore many witnesses tell you to fear the Lord God if you want to be at peace with the Lord God their God. they testify that one should fear their God the Lord God and its for one's good preached by Moses. but there are those the many who see what they want love of God to be like and go by their own judgements.

its never and never has been about what men think, especially in their own judgement when it comes to God and who or what God is like. but the many actually are their own gods being gods in their own minds judging what is good and evil for themselves and judging what a loving god ought to be like. and its actually like themselves creating gods in their hearts in their own image and in their own likeness. making themselves the creator of their own gods.

also supporting in their own minds and heart that they chose God, God doesn't chose them they chose God like He's supposed to be thankful for that or something. because in their own judgement God met some criteria that they judge as good. it would seem obvious how the All Mighty Creator and Judge of all things might see that differently then they do.

 

[marks]

If this isn't "sin so grace may abound" I don't know what is! Paul preached the opposite of Martin Luther of the Reformation. And many in the church still teach this anti-holiness dung.

Martin Luther, “Sin Boldly”

Martin Luther "Sin boldly":
"If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard, for you are quite a sinner."

The question no one wants to answer . . . By what Act are we justified?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why it is that christians are so afraid to say they do, i dont know, God isnt blind.

This is near to my heart.

That is in fact the truth. And to be honest, and to be humble, this is what God wants from us. In that honesty and humility is where we find the release from sin. Because when we try to stand with pride saying, I've been so desirous . . . so intent . . . so faithful . . . that Now, in response, God has brought me Into Christ . . . then we are relying on ourselves, not relying on Jesus.

And we all know the failures there!

But when I am just honest with God, humble, He is sympathetic.

But without the right understanding of our justification in Christ, well, we just have to remember. He did it. Not us.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The difference between you and Paul is that he was not satisfied to remain in the bondage of sin...and you have been taught that it's normal and ok.

Another example of overstepping.

Well, I'll tell you your problem! Your problem is . . .

OK.

 

[marks]

But people deny this life and power and have made the gospel about ignoring sin or being indifferent to sinning.

Who has done this? Can you quote the post? And if not . . . what does that say?

 

[Enoch111]

The question no one wants to answer . . . By what Act are we justified?

There are far too many Christians who simply do not understand what justification by grace through faith means. They simply cannot -- and will not -- believe that God declares guilty sinners to be as righteous as Christ when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. How shocking! And that is because (1) they do not understand the grace of God and (2) they have no idea about the finished work of Christ. The Catholic Church has resisted this Gospel truth ever since its inception, and they also declared the Protestants to be heretics for believing God in this matter. Christians should read the canons of the Council of Trent.

Then we have many here who believe that preachers are preaching that one can be saved and keep on sinning. While it is true that many preachers say nothing about repentance and conversion, it is also true that no one is preaching that people can claim to be saved and go on sinning. In any event, the Bible is available to all, therefore no one has any excuse for saying that they did not know that repentance and faith in Christ are two sides of the same coin.

 

[Episkopos]

They simply cannot -- and will not -- believe that God declares guilty sinners to be as righteous as Christ when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. How shocking! And that is because (1) they do not understand the grace of God and (2) they have no idea about the finished work of Christ.

...and this is due to the fact that the doctrine you are speaking of isn't biblical. That's why it is a later heresy. God is merciful and accepts people who believe in Jesus. That is called justification by faith...based on the righteousness of faith. But the proviso here is that only God can justify someone.

Presumptions notwithstanding the scheme you teach, from what you have been taught, is that a believer can justify himself by his own beliefs thus declaring himself as saved.

THAT is what is out of order...self-justification. Believing in the finished work of the cross does not make a person able to justify themselves as eternally saved for that belief. The devil also believes in the work of the cross...and trembles. It took a drunken monk in the middle ages to come up with such a far-fetched idea for people to settle on that for a self-justifying ideology rather than the truth.

So it is no wonder that the early church didn't believe in that. It is an invention from what some call the "reformation"...where the truth was reformed into something other than the truth.

And also the righteousness of faith is not the same as the righteousness of God. God is not faith and faith is not God.

And here lies the actual working element that leads so many astray. To they who hold up the own belief as that which saved them...they have made a god out of their belief. An idol if you will. So then it is no wonder that these cannot distinguish between faith and God.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The question no one wants to answer . . . By what Act are we justified?

Much love!

I'm not sure why you believe no one wants to answer? The Bible is clear. We come to Christ just as we are - weak, powerless sinners, acknowledging that we are unable to rid ourselves of the sin that separates us from God, and ask Jesus to save us from the sin that enslaves us, AND HE DOES. He not only cleanses us from all our past sins from throughout our life (justification), but gives us His powerful Spirit to make us new creatures in Christ, set apart from the world to do His will (sanctification). From that point on we go from glory to glory adding to our faith, virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; 7 to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love (glorification).

 

[marks]

I'm not sure why you believe no one wants to answer?

Well, because I've put that exact question to several different people, but none have replied.

The Bible is clear.

I quite agree! And I think this is why they don't want to answer.

We come to Christ just as we are - weak, powerless sinners, acknowledging that we are unable to rid ourselves of the sin that separates us from God, and ask Jesus to save us from the sin that enslaves us, AND HE DOES. He not only cleanses us from all our past sins from throughout our life (justification), but gives us His powerful Spirit to make us new creatures in Christ, set apart from the world to do His will (sanctification). From that point on we go from glory to glory adding to our faith, virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; to knowledge, self-control; to self-control, perseverance; to perseverance, godliness; 7 to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love (glorification).

Here's what I have in mind.

Romans 5:19 ". . . for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous."

Keeping in mind here, justify and righteous share the same root, and are different forms of the same word.

"through the obedience of the one"

Through one offence, condemnation came to all. Justification is by . . . a free gift of grace . . . through the obedience of one.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I would answer, the act which justifies us is this.

We are justified, or made righteous, same thing, by a gift of grace, through the obedience of the One, that is Christ.

Adam's sin condemned us. Jesus' obedience, obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, the gift of His obedience, given to us, justifies us.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well, because I've put that exact question to several different people, but none have replied.

I quite agree! And I think this is why they don't want to answer.



Here's what I have in mind.

Romans 5:19 ". . . for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous."

Keeping in mind here, justify and righteous share the same root, and are different forms of the same word.

"through the obedience of the one"

Through one offence, condemnation came to all. Justification is by . . . a free gift of grace . . . through the obedience of one.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

I would answer, the act which justifies us is this.

We are justified, or made righteous, same thing, by a gift of grace, through the obedience of the One, that is Christ.

Adam's sin condemned us. Jesus' obedience, obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, the gift of His obedience, given to us, justifies us.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

Yes, when you use words like grace, but that may mean one thing to you, and another to me. This is what I meant:

but gives us His powerful Spirit to make us new creatures in Christ, set apart from the world to do His will (sanctification)

The baptism of the Holy Spirit empowers us to not sin, just like 1 John 3 shows us.

 

[marks]

There are far too many Christians who simply do not understand what justification by grace through faith means. They simply cannot -- and will not -- believe that God declares guilty sinners to be as righteous as Christ when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. How shocking! And that is because (1) they do not understand the grace of God and (2) they have no idea about the finished work of Christ. The Catholic Church has resisted this Gospel truth ever since its inception, and they also declared the Protestants to be heretics for believing God in this matter. Christians should read the canons of the Council of Trent.

Then we have many here who believe that preachers are preaching that one can be saved and keep on sinning. While it is true that many preachers say nothing about repentance and conversion, it is also true that no one is preaching that people can claim to be saved and go on sinning. In any event, the Bible is available to all, therefore no one has any excuse for saying that they did not know that repentance and faith in Christ are two sides of the same coin.

And there is the call of pride in the heart of fallen man. "To be found in Christ . . ." but I want to get there on my own! Not!

That's why my question goes unanswered.

We are made righteous by what Jesus did, His obedience to God. And if you can admit that, then you will realize that we are not justified by anything we ourselves do.

If it's Him, it's not us! And if it's not us, then . . . It's not us.

And that flies in the face of those who say that our works are required for God to justify us. We do not justify ourselves, it's a gift from God.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But the proviso here is that only God can justify someone.

You write as if he said something different from that. Is that true?

There are far too many Christians who simply do not understand what justification by grace through faith means. They simply cannot -- and will not -- believe that God declares guilty sinners to be as righteous as Christ when they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. How shocking! And that is because (1) they do not understand the grace of God and (2) they have no idea about the finished work of Christ. The Catholic Church has resisted this Gospel truth ever since its inception, and they also declared the Protestants to be heretics for believing God in this matter. Christians should read the canons of the Council of Trent.

Seems to me that you are mischaracterizing his post for your own purposes, attributing something to Enoch that he neither said nor believes. One must wonder why . . .

that a believer can justify himself by his own beliefs thus declaring himself as saved.

THAT is what is out of order...self-justification. Believing in the finished work of the cross does not make a person able to justify themselves as eternally saved for that belief.

He never said any of that.

 

[CharismaticLady]

And there is the call of pride in the heart of fallen man. "To be found in Christ . . ." but I want to get there on my own! Not!

That's why my question goes unanswered.

We are made righteous by what Jesus did, His obedience to God. And if you can admit that, then you will realize that we are not justified by anything we ourselves do.

If it's Him, it's not us! And if it's not us, then . . . It's not us.

And that flies in the face of those who say that our works are required for God to justify us. We do not justify ourselves, it's a gift from God.

Much love!

But what you and @Enoch111 don't see is that Jesus cleansed our PAST sins, and DID NOT leave us in the same fallen condition He found us in, but gave us a new circumcised heart by giving us His free gift of EMPOWERMENT called the indwelling Holy Spirit. So what you could not do on your own, you can now do easily through the Spirit.

As far as righteousness, with His indwelling Spirit, our acts of righteousness, DO make us righteous.

1 John 3:
He who practices righteousness IS righteous, just as He is righteous.

Don't you two get it? We are no longer called sinners because we DON'T SIN, not because of some invisible cloak over us letting us sin up a storm with no guilt or condemnation. The wages of sin is still death. That is what Paul was trying to warn Christians in Romans 6.

1 Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not!
15 Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Continuing to sin when you've been given the power not to is rebellion against God and worthy of death.

I believe I read @Episkopos right when he said we will can not be holy in this lifetime, only in heaven, but the state we die in, is the state we will remain in, either in heaven or hell. Revelation 22:11

11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

 

[marks]

But what you and @Enoch111 don't see is that Jesus cleansed our PAST sins, and DID NOT leave us in the same fallen condition He found us in, but gave us a new circumcised heart by giving us His free gift of EMPOWERMENT called the indwelling Holy Spirit. So what you could not do on your own, you can now do easily through the Spirit.

As far as righteousness, with His indwelling Spirit, our acts of righteousness, DO make us righteous.

1 John 3:
He who practices righteousness IS righteous, just as He is righteous.

Don't you two get it? We are no longer called sinners because we DON'T SIN, not because of some invisible cloak over us letting us sin up a storm with no guilt or condemnation. The wages of sin is still death. That is what Paul was trying to warn Christians in Romans 6.

1 Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not!
15 Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Continuing to sin when you've been given the power not to is rebellion against God and worthy of death.

I believe I read @Episkopos right when he said we will can not be holy in this lifetime, only in heaven, but the state we die in, is the state we will remain in, either in heaven or hell. Revelation 22:11

11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

You seem to be side-stepping my point here. You are talking here about many things which come after justification.

I'm speaking about justification itself.

To be clear, I believe that justification marks the beginning of our salvation. That before justification, we have no standing whatsoever with God other than another condemned human. That we are justified by God, and born from Him. We are innocent, righteous, and holy.

You are talking about what happens after that. I'm talking about the act of justification itself.

I think it very important to understand what justification is, how it comes, and it's result in our lives.

Much love!

 

[marks]

and DID NOT leave us in the same fallen condition He found us in,

Well of course He didn't! That's the point of it all.

 

[marks]

I believe I read @Episkopos right when he said we will can not be holy in this lifetime, only in heaven, but the state we die in, is the state we will remain in, either in heaven or hell. Revelation 22:11

How do you understand this part?

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Another thing I'm wondering, when you say, the state we die in, what does that mean? Do you mean in like an Ezekiel 18 way?

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Like that?

Much love!