First The "Great Tribulation", and Then Christ's Coming and Our Gathering

[veteran]

Christ's coming and our gathering to Him will happen immediately AFTER the "great tribulation" He mentioned in the Matt.24 chapter. Let no man deceive you about that, for it is clearly written!

Matt 24:21-31
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
(KJV)

 

[JLB]

AMEN to that brother!

 

[7angels]

what you are not understanding is that there is more then one rapture. there are actually several raptures, the church, the 144.000, the 2 witnesses, the saints that endured the trib, and ect. if that is the way you want to look at it. but if you read rev you will see that saints are found in the Tribulation does not prove that the Church is there any more than the existence of saints in the Old Testament proves that the Church was there. the Church began at Pentecost with the baptizing ministry of the Holy Spirit. Thus, the Old Testament saints are not part of the Church. In the same way, the existence of saints in the Tribulation does not prove that the Church is there either, and not even once are they called the Church. The Church, as such, is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the Tribulation. . . . in chapters 6-18 [of the book of Revelation], which deal with the Tribulation period itself, the Church is not even mentioned once. This is most unusual in light of the prominence of the Church in the chapters dealing with events prior to and after the Tribulation.

 

[veteran]

what you are not understanding is that there is more then one rapture. there are actually several raptures, the church, the 144.000, the 2 witnesses, the saints that endured the trib, and ect. if that is the way you want to look at it. but if you read rev you will see that saints are found in the Tribulation does not prove that the Church is there any more than the existence of saints in the Old Testament proves that the Church was there. the Church began at Pentecost with the baptizing ministry of the Holy Spirit. Thus, the Old Testament saints are not part of the Church. In the same way, the existence of saints in the Tribulation does not prove that the Church is there either, and not even once are they called the Church. The Church, as such, is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the Tribulation. . . . in chapters 6-18 [of the book of Revelation], which deal with the Tribulation period itself, the Church is not even mentioned once. This is most unusual in light of the prominence of the Church in the chapters dealing with events prior to and after the Tribulation.

What you are not understanding is simple words like.... "Immediately after the tribulation", just like Christ Jesus said in Matthew 24:29.

 

[teleiosis]

There is only one Rapture: it is those who remain and are still left (1Th 4:17) after the Great Tribulation decimates the Elect to near extinction (Mt 24:22).

The Rapture is only for Christians who are living when Jesus comes; it is only for those who believe and haven't taken the "mark" or worshipped the anti-Christ's talking image (Rev 14:11) .

The Rapture is only for those translated alive from Earth to the third Heaven of God the Father's presence (second part 1Co 15:52).

The Rapture is only a small part of the first Resurrection (Rev 20:4-5). In order of appearance, those saved are:

1. The Firstfruits of the Harvest: the 144,000. These individuals are very special; they come from around the world (Isa 13:5).
2. The Harvest of the Elect:
   • The Dead in Christ (the vast majority of the first Resurrection; they include OT Saints like Daniel)
   • The Elect who never die - the Rapture
3. The Martyrs who wait beneath the Altar in God the Father's Temple in Heaven until their number is complete (Rev 6:11) (with the Two Witnesses - Rev 11:12)

 

[veteran]

There is only one Rapture: it is those who remain and are still left (1Th 4:17) after the Great Tribulation decimates the Elect to near extinction (Mt 24:22).

How is it that the Pre-trib secret Rapture theory says Christ's Church is raptured PRIOR to the tribulation, if Christ's elect saints are still on earth going through the tribulation??? And the Matt.24 and Mark 13 reveals Christ's elect on earth going through the "great tribulation" He forewarned of.

The Rapture is only for Christians who are living when Jesus comes; it is only for those who believe and haven't taken the "mark" or worshipped the anti-Christ's talking image (Rev 14:11).

The gathering to Christ Jesus of His Church is about those of His Church alive on earth that REMAIN FAITHFUL TO HIM until... His coming AFTER... the tribulation (Matt.24:29-31; Mark 13:23-27). No Christian believer is gathered to Christ until His second coming. Christ's second coming is what actually ENDS... the tribulation He mentioned. That is not... a Pre-trib Rapture idea at all.

The Rapture is only for those translated alive from Earth to the third Heaven of God the Father's presence (second part 1Co 15:52).

Per BOTH the OT prophets and the NT writers, Christ is returning to this earth at His second coming and the time when He will gather us to Him. That return specifically involves His return to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, on earth, and that... is where His faithful saints will be gathered to Him. This is why per Rev.5:10 His elect saints will reign with Him, on the earth. Being taken up to Heaven to live is a dream castle from men's false doctrines.

The Rapture is only a small part of the first Resurrection (Rev 20:4-5). In order of appearance, those saved are:

• The Firstfruits of the Harvest: the 144,000. These individuals are very special; they come from around the world (Isa 13:5).
• The Harvest of the Elect:
  • The Dead in Christ (the vast majority of the first Resurrection; they include OT Saints like Daniel)
  • The Elect who never die - the Rapture
• The Martyrs who wait beneath the Altar in God the Father's Temple in Heaven until their number is complete (Rev 6:11) (with the Two Witnesses - Rev 11:12)

Per 1 Thess.4, Jesus brings the saints that 'sleep in Jesus' with Him to earth when He comes. Paul says we who remain and are alive on earth at His coming will in no way precede ("prevent" - KJV) those saints who have already died in Christ. The dead saints will be resurrected, and the alive saints on earth will be 'changed' (1 Cor.15). Then both... are joined to Christ Jesus at His coming to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem (Acts 1; Zech.14; 1 Thess.4; 1 Cor.15).

what you are not understanding is that there is more then one rapture. there are actually several raptures, the church, the 144.000, the 2 witnesses, the saints that endured the trib, and ect.

Nope. there's only ONE gathering time of the saints to Christ Jesus at His second coming. And it's after the tribulation like He said in Matt.24:29-31. The 1 Thess.4 timing and 1 Cor.15 timing are both... the same events at the same timing.

... if that is the way you want to look at it. but if you read rev you will see that saints are found in the Tribulation does not prove that the Church is there any more than the existence of saints in the Old Testament proves that the Church was there.

That's a real flaw in basic logic. Christ's saints (Church) are found in the tribulation, but that doesn't mean His Church is there? All of Christ's saints make up His Church, not just part of them. As for the Church idea per OT timing, I guess you forgot what Acts 7 said about that...

Acts 7:37-39
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, 'A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.'
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
(KJV)

Christ's Church officially began when this world started, the OT saints simply did not get to live to see Christ's death and resurrection time. Yet they believed, even as Jesus showed about Abraham at the end of John 8.

the Church began at Pentecost with the baptizing ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The Acts 7 Scripture just prove you view on that wrong. The New Testament Church is what you're talking about, which is represented by the New Covenant. But the Promise by FAITH was first... given to Abraham, and that represented the NT Church that was to come (Gal.3). And it was the OT patriarch's and prophet's Faith on that which ALSO made them of God's Church through Christ Jesus, even in OT times.

Thus, the Old Testament saints are not part of the Church.

That's what the false brethren crept in unawares preach, and lead others to preach, but it is not Biblical. Or didn't you understand what Jesus said about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob coming to sit down in His Kingdom per the Matt.8 Scripture?

In the same way, the existence of saints in the Tribulation does not prove that the Church is there either, and not even once are they called the Church.

Balderdash! The existence of Christ's ELECT going through the tribulation per Matt.24:23-31 means EXACTLY that His Church is still... on earth then. If not so, then it would mean Christ's Salvation cannot really save all His Church, but only parts of it! It's crazy to dream up false ideas just so as to try and make the false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine men fit into Scripture when it never... will fit.

The Church, as such, is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the Tribulation. . . . in chapters 6-18 [of the book of Revelation], which deal with the Tribulation period itself, the Church is not even mentioned once. This is most unusual in light of the prominence of the Church in the chapters dealing with events prior to and after the Tribulation.

Guess you missed the Rev.11 Scripture about the 'two candlesticks' then.

Let me see, what did our Lord Jesus say the 'candlesticks' in Revelation represent???

Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
(KJV)

 

[teleiosis]

As to your first two points addressed to me, you seem to be fighting some Pre-Trib idea; I'm not Pre-Trib.

Per BOTH the OT prophets and the NT writers, Christ is returning to this earth at His second coming and the time when He will gather us to Him. That return specifically involves His return to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem, on earth, and that... is where His faithful saints will be gathered to Him. This is why per Rev.5:10 His elect saints will reign with Him, on the earth. Being taken up to Heaven to live is a dream castle from men's false doctrines.

And that would be your doctrine... Jesus says in John 14:2-3 and Revelation chapters 7 and 19-20 that we are in Heaven: the abode of God the Father and His Temple.

The Bible says we will reign on the earth; you are taking that one step farther and saying we will live on the earth: they are not the same thing. At the end of the Millennium, the Bible says that the entire world revolts (under the short-lived seventh head of Satan) the camp of God at Jerusalem. A camp is temporary. We are never mentioned in the Bible as owning any territory during the Millennium; there is no nation of immortal people on the earth mentioned anywhere in the Bible. How do you mix mortal (and still sinning) people with immortal people?

Per 1 Thess.4, Jesus brings the saints that 'sleep in Jesus' with Him to earth when He comes. Paul says we who remain and are alive on earth at His coming will in no way precede ("prevent" - KJV) those saints who have already died in Christ. The dead saints will be resurrected, and the alive saints on earth will be 'changed' (1 Cor.15). Then both... are joined to Christ Jesus at His coming to the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem (Acts 1; Zech.14; 1 Thess.4; 1 Cor.15).

Negative.

After the sun/moon/star event on the Day of the Lord with the sixth Seal of Rev 6:12-14, which coincides with Mt 24:29, is a second earthquake in Rev 6:14. In this earthquake, like many we have witnessed in the last few years, the plates of the earth shift moving every geographical point on earth relative to each other. This is the splitting of the Mount of Olives of Zec 14:4. This touchdown by Jesus coming from the scrolling of the skies as Is 34:4, which I think is the sign of the Son of Man in Mt 24:30 marks the bookend of Jesus' time away as the Angels told the Disciples in Acts 1:11. So AS Jesus left: so too shall He return.

It is on the new Mount Zion, made from the split Mount of Olives that two things happen. One: the 144,000 are mustered as is described in Is 13:2-6 and Rev 14:1. Two: a second element of the Remnant Jews flees from the city of Jerusalem to join the contingent from Judea who fled previously at the midpoint invasion of the King of the North; this can be found in Zec 14:5. Both sets of the Remnant Jews are shepherded in the wilderness for the second half of the one 'seven' during the Wrath of God; they must move around at a moment's notice for the bulk of the three and a half years that God's desolations create tribulation for those who forced tribulation onto us. This is the point of Rev 16:15; they Remnant Jews must be ready to move at a moment's notice because Jesus will "pop in" without notice. Those who are not ready (by being dressed in a normal sense) are not left behind, but instead just go naked.

Now that Jesus has begun the process which will lead to the mustering of His Army which will act on the second half of the Day of the Lord as detailed in Joel 2:2-11, and He had made provision for those He will shepherd through the desolations God will decree (the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments as foretold in Dan 9:26 which are stored in the Scroll) - then Jesus awakens the Dead in Christ in the spiritual realm of Heaven, the first Heaven of Paradise. This selective callout of John 5:24-25 is not on the earth. It is THEN that Jesus comes back with them (from an earth-bound observer-true point-of-view) as Paul writes in 1Th 3:13 on the clouds. This is keeping with 1Th 4:16-17, Mt 24:31, and Rev 14:14-16. All three visions by different authors are describing the same event.

Jesus meets us halfway between the sky (Heaven) and Earth; this is an ancient practice of parlay that we don't use anymore. People from ancient times would understand the nature of this meeting away from their city (fortress) with the invading army so as to go back to their camp and make peace. In the wedding ceremony of ancient Israel, the groom and his band of noisy, joyous fellows call the bride out of her father's house to join them in the street and they go back together to the groom's father's house for the actual wedding/unveiling.

The now assembled multitude go back to the third Heaven of God the Father's presence as detailed in Rev 7:9-17. This arrival is even foretold with the coming of one like the Son of Man on the clouds of Heaven in Dan 7:13 who brings with Him people of every language from every nation who worship Him.

After Jesus delivers the Great Multitude in accordance with what He said in the parable of the wheat and tares in Mt 13:30, He then breaks the seventh Seal thus opening the Scroll. Once the Scroll is opened, the first Trumpet sounds and supplies the blood and fire of the Day of the Lord Wrath which is written about extensively in the Old Testament. In the second half of the Day of the Lord, Jesus tramples out His Wrath upon the Land: specifically Israel. One of the battles said to occur on that Day centers on the takeover of Jerusalem. I think Ezekiel chapter 9 describes Jesus' entry into the rebuilt third Temple which previously housed the abomination. Like Dagon of 1Sa 5:4, I don't think the talking image of the anti-Christ as described in Rev 13:14-15 has much of a chance.

The other battle of Day of the Lord may very well be a rear-guard action supporting the fleeing Remnant Jews from the previous evening when Jesus alighted upon the Mount of Olives and split it in two. This battle is fought in the Valley of Decision, or the Valley of Jehoshaphat - which according to scholars is around Bethlehem, to the south of Jerusalem. In these two battles, the Army of Jesus has supernatural help as attested by the Bible in Rev 14:17-19. Like this explanation, this avenging Angel comes AFTER the Harvest of souls on the first half of the Day of the Lord (which happens at night) when every eye will see Jesus coming on the clouds to gather His Elect from around the world.

Once the desolation of the first Trumpet goes forth, and both battles can be fought on one day, there is no more immediate need of Jesus to be on the earth. The Earth will reel like a drunken sailor and it may take many months for it to recover. In the U.S. of A., I expect the Yellowstone caldera to blow as part of the Day of the Lord. "Mountains will smoke," as Ps 104:32 says. The Yellowstone caldera blowing will wipe out the Midwest's grain crop, short out the electrical grid for the whole country and Canada, and shut down all forms of vehicular travel for days if not weeks. The wicked will be without food just as we were during the Great Tribulation, and so they will deserve it.

After Jesus takes us up, the world will not be a fit place to live for quite a while... During this time and much of the Millennium, we are in Heaven which is just as "real" as anything here on Earth. Remember: the Temple on Earth is a poor copy of what is in Heaven. And as Eze 43:8 suggests, there is very real connection between the two Temples, so much so that I think it may be a doorway between this world and the next. The Temple Mount is also thought to be where Jacob's Ladder was seen Gen 28:12-13.

Towards the end of the one 'seven,' the entire assembly of tens of thousands of Angels and the Great Multitude are shut safe inside the Temple of God while the final Wrath of God goes forth: Rev 15:7. It most certainly is in Heaven where we will be at this point!

 

[veteran]

As to your first two points addressed to me, you seem to be fighting some Pre-Trib idea; I'm not Pre-Trib.

That's good, I think, for I thought you were. I stand corrected on that.

And that would be your doctrine... Jesus says in John 14:2-3 and Revelation chapters 7 and 19-20 that we are in Heaven: the abode of God the Father and His Temple.

I see you haven't done much Bible study in the Book of Ezekiel, specifically the Ezekiel 40 through 48 chapters. Here's the "mansions" our Lord Jesus was talking about in John 14...

Ezek 45:4-5
4 The holy portion of the land shall be for the priests the ministers of the sanctuary, which shall come near to minister unto the LORD: and it shall be a place for their houses, and an holy place for the sanctuary.
5 And the five and twenty thousand of length, and the ten thousand of breadth, shall also the Levites, the ministers of the house, have for themselves, for a possession for twenty chambers.
(KJV)

Look up the Greek word for "manisions". It means 'abode, dwelling, residence'. That's what those houses and chambers are in the Millennial Sanctuary and Oblation. Some of them are abodes for Christ's priests who reign with Him.

God's House at the ending chapters of Ezekiel is for after... Christ's second coming. There will be a Millennium Sanctuary manifested in Jerusalem on earth for Christ's "thousand years" reign with His elect. But not for God's Eternity (see Rev.21-22).

Will that... manifesting be a heavenly manifesting upon the earth? Yes. Some call it God's Cube. Per the Rev.21:16 and Ezekiel 48 measurements, it will be a foursquare cube situated where Jerusalem is, and extending up into space above the earth the same height as it is in width and length.

See the layout the Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger did on the Millennium Sanctuary and Oblation per the Book of Ezekiel:

http://www.levendwat...n/append88.html


Many struggle with the idea of heavenly order manifesting in the same space upon this earth. One of the ways I use to help explain that is with the idea of 'dimensions'. There's only 2 dimensions of existence per God's Word, this earthly one, and the heavenly one, even as revealed by Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15 (and in all The Bible actually). The resurrection body (or "spiritual body" as Paul called it) is a heavenly order type body. Yet it can manifest upon the earth, walk and live upon this earth. It is not a flesh body like we have today which is of earthly matter (dust).

That is what the coming resurrection and change to our "spiritual body" at Christ's second coming is about. Jesus said in Matthew 22:30 those of the resurrection are "as the angels of God in heaven". Rev.20:9 verse specifically reveals this as "the camp of the saints" and it's shown to be "upon the breadth of the earth" per that Scripture also.

That's where the Rev.7:15-17 and Rev.14 Scriptures are referring to. Mount Sion on earth where Jerusalem is, but for after Christ's return and our gathering to Him on earth per Zech.14.

The Bible says we will reign on the earth; you are taking that one step farther and saying we will live on the earth: they are not the same thing. At the end of the Millennium, the Bible says that the entire world revolts (under the short-lived seventh head of Satan) the camp of God at Jerusalem. A camp is temporary. We are never mentioned in the Bible as owning any territory during the Millennium; there is no nation of immortal people on the earth mentioned anywhere in the Bible. How do you mix mortal (and still sinning) people with immortal people?

You're wrong about that, which is to totally miss the Ezekiel layout for Christ's future Millennium reign with His elect priests and kings. The encampment of Israel before they entered the holy land later became... the city of Jerusalem. Ezekiel reveals the tree of life and God's River of the waters of life manifested in Jerusalem with the Millennial Sanctuary. Difficult to miss that, including all the detailed dimensions given about it to show it has never manifested yet to this day. Even certain cities in the holy land on earth is mentioned with it, revealing it's a lot more than just a simple tent camp. Jesus even revealed it in Rev.22:14-15 also.

Negative.

After the sun/moon/star event on the Day of the Lord with the sixth Seal of Rev 6:12-14, which coincides with Mt 24:29, is a second earthquake in Rev 6:14. In this earthquake, like many we have witnessed in the last few years, the plates of the earth shift moving every geographical point on earth relative to each other. This is the splitting of the Mount of Olives of Zec 14:4. This touchdown by Jesus coming from the scrolling of the skies as Is 34:4, which I think is the sign of the Son of Man in Mt 24:30 marks the bookend of Jesus' time away as the Angels told the Disciples in Acts 1:11. So AS Jesus left: so too shall He return.

That "great earthquake" on the day of The Lord is the same one of Rev.11:13 and Rev.16:18, and also inferred in Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27. It's not about 2, but about the same one. Paul also was describing it at the end of Hebrews 12.

Heb 12:25-27
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, 'Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.'
27 And this word, 'Yet once more', signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
(KJV)

Any earthquake prior to that one won't match that final one at Christ's coming on the day of The Lord.

It is on the new Mount Zion, made from the split Mount of Olives that two things happen. One: the 144,000 are mustered as is described in Is 13:2-6 and Rev 14:1. Two: a second element of the Remnant Jews flees from the city of Jerusalem to join the contingent from Judea who fled previously at the midpoint invasion of the King of the North; this can be found in Zec 14:5. Both sets of the Remnant Jews are shepherded in the wilderness for the second half of the one 'seven' during the Wrath of God; they must move around at a moment's notice for the bulk of the three and a half years that God's desolations create tribulation for those who forced tribulation onto us. This is the point of Rev 16:15; they Remnant Jews must be ready to move at a moment's notice because Jesus will "pop in" without notice. Those who are not ready (by being dressed in a normal sense) are not left behind, but instead just go naked.

You're confusing metaphors with literal events. Christ's warning to keep our garments lest we appear naked and in shame is metaphorical. It's about not being deceived.

The 144,000 are about Israelites of both the 'house of Judah' and the "house of Israel'. Only 3 of those tribes mentioned are even about Jews (house of Judah). The rest (majority) are about Israelites from the ten lost tribes, of which the majority of those aren't even in the holy land, and haven't been since God brough the kings of Assyria upon them to remove them captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes.

When Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem on the day of The Lord as written, He brings all His Church there with Him, as per Zech.14:5. The fleeing is per a New Testament perspective, not an Old Testament one. That gathering is about His Church of both believing Israelites and.. believing Gentiles. It's not specific to Jews in the holy land today

Now that Jesus has begun the process which will lead to the mustering of His Army which will act on the second half of the Day of the Lord as detailed in Joel 2:2-11, and He had made provision for those He will shepherd through the desolations God will decree (the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments as foretold in Dan 9:26 which are stored in the Scroll) - then Jesus awakens the Dead in Christ in the spiritual realm of Heaven, the first Heaven of Paradise. This selective callout of John 5:24-25 is not on the earth. It is THEN that Jesus comes back with them (from an earth-bound observer-true point-of-view) as Paul writes in 1Th 3:13 on the clouds. This is keeping with 1Th 4:16-17, Mt 24:31, and Rev 14:14-16. All three visions by different authors are describing the same event.

The "day of the Lord" is a one-time event that will occur on the day of Christ's coming.

The idea of the third heaven is about the heavenly manifest according time, not levels.

Those of John 5:24-25 is about the resurrection that happened at Christ's crucifixion.