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First the Rapture and then the Great Tribulations

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by hhogletree, Dec 26, 2011.

  1. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    You're essentially saying then that the Masoretic Text version is correct because it conforms to your belief that you derived from the Masoretic Text.

    The Ezekiel verse is an allegorical reference to the waters of life issuing forth from the New Jerusalem. Do you also believe that water will flow out of the bellies of those who believe in Jesus? (John 7:38)
     
  2. Butch5

    Butch5 Butch5

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    I agree! I don't even know why English Bibles use the Masoretic text anymore. If Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint, it seems we should too.
     
  3. Stefcui

    Stefcui New Member

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    Agreed also!!! That quote of Justin Martyr is beautiful... It is from his 1st Apology written to the Emperor Antoninus... "To the Emperor Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Caesar..."

    I have placed quotes of Justin Martyr on the LXX under my Septuagint Posts.

    God Bless
    Steve
     
  4. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Your latter example from John 7 is indeed a metaphor, but the Ezek.47 description about God's River manfiested on earth for the Millennium, is not a metaphor. Haven't you ever read Gen.2 about that River?

    If your concetration on using the Septuagint has not shown you that, then you'll have your answer about the Masoretic texts of the OT.
     
  5. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    And yet the narrative you describe is dependent on a Masoretic text reading that is contradicted by the LXX and historical, archaeological, linguistic, geologic, cartographic, and photographic evidence.
     
  6. Ridgerunner

    Ridgerunner New Member

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    The pretrib rapture theory is a commonly taught end time myth. This false myth got it’s start in 1591 with a Jesuit priest who’s goal was to stop the reformers from teaching the Catholic church was the whore of Babylon. The theory evolved through time with the aid of Manuel de Lacunza, Edward Irving, Robert Norton, Margaret McDonald, John Darby and CI Scofield. C. I. Scofield decided to include the erroneous theory in the annotated Bible he was working on. Sound Bible scholars of the day (like A. J. Gordon, Charles R. Erdman and W.G. Morehead) tried to dissuade him. Three members of Scofield’s revision committee resigned over Scofield’s unswerving support for the view and it was incorporated into the Scofield Bible. Over the following decades the Scofield Bible became the most widely read Bible in the English language, resulting in a myth becoming a commonly taught false doctrine.
    There is much Scripture that proves this doctrine false but due to constraints of time and space I will only try to provide a brief but Biblically sound rebuttal to the false doctrine.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all
    the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
    heaven with power and great glory.
    Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
    shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    Rev 10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the
    things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and
    the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
    Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,
    the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
    Notice the verse (1Cor15:52) clearly states that we are taken at the LAST trump. Therefore it would have to include the seven trumps of Revelation. Scripture does not lie so the trump of 1 Cor15:52 can’t come before the seventh trump of Revelation or it would not be the last. Either the trump of 1 Cor15:52 is the same trump as the seventh trump of Rev or it would have to come after. We can rule out the possibility that it comes after the seventh trump of Revelation because Revelation 10:6 & 7 tells us that when the trump sounds “that there should be time no longer” and “the mystery of God should be finished” So clearly according to Scripture (God’s inspired word) we are taken at the last trump and at the last trump there is time no longer and the mystery of God is finished. If the mystery of God is finished and there is time no longer how can the tribulation come after that? Besides doesn’t Matthew24:29-31 tell us the Lord returns and gathers the believers after the tribulation? A pretrib rapture would directly contradict the Scriptures quoted. Many churches today still promote the myth of a pretrib rapture but it is so counter to the plain statements of the Bible (particularly the last trump) that I can’t help but wonder how it has gained such widespread popularity.
    2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their
    own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
     
  7. Stefcui

    Stefcui New Member

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    Scofield was financed by the American Zionists. Zionists now own most Christian publishing houses throughout the world; it was a small investment required in order to monitor and control what messages and teaching Christians are listening to. Many will not even believe these kinds of statements because they need to believe in the nice little vision of the world that is promoted on the American sitcoms. Pastors and Priests rarely mention it because they are either unaware or guilty of involvement.

    I’m not sure about the Catholic involvement in the rapture doctrine… Zionists had infiltrated Catholicism too. This spy-game between Zionists; Jesuits and Freemason was the equivalent of business networking groups among religions. Religions back then held all of the power. We don’t see it much today, but in the 18[sup]th[/sup] and 19[sup]th[/sup] century it was the normal state of affairs.

    Christians were asleep during most of this dark hour, so we came off the worse and still not knowing what happened. Most of us do not have any idea how our doctrines were formed. Everyone assumes it is because they are recorded in the bible, but this is not the case.

    Steve
     
  8. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Going to go back to textual arguments instead of looking at it? Here's the Septuagint version then...

    Gen.2:10 And a river proceeds out of Edem to water the garden, thence it divides itself into four heads.
    11 The name of the one, Phisom, this it is which encircles the whole land of Evilat, where there is gold.
    12 And the gold of that land is good, there also is carbuncle and emerald.
    13 And the name of the second river is Geon, this it is which encircles the whole land of Ethiopia.
    14 And the third river is Tigris, this is that which flows forth over against the Assyrians. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

    A 'metaphorical' river couldn't flow out of God's Garden of Eden to feed four other literal rivers upon the earth, of which two rivers mentioned there can still be located on earth today.
     
  9. HeRoseFromTheDead

    HeRoseFromTheDead Not So Advanced Member

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    I didn't say that river was metaphorical.
     
  10. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Same River idea written in Ezekiel 47. Notice the River in Gen.2 is IN... God's Garden of Eden.
     
  11. Ridgerunner

    Ridgerunner New Member

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    I won't argue about who financed C. I. Scofield because there is plenty of evidence suggesting that was a strong possibility (and most likely the case) but it is an undeniable fact that the Jesuit priest Francisco Ribera penned a doctrine back in 1591 and that doctrine went through a series of changes as a result of additions and changes by Manuel de Lacunza, Edward Irving, Robert Norton, Margaret McDonald, John Darby before C. I. Scofield included it in the bible he published. Don't take my word on it, a quick google or yahoo search of these individuals will verify these truths.
     
  12. Stefcui

    Stefcui New Member

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    Yes, I have read this before. I do not doubt what you are saying.

    Steve
     
  13. rjp34652@yahoo.com

    [email protected] Choir Loft

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    I agree with you completely. The rapture fantasy/ideology is NOT Biblical, which is to say its use of scripture is on the same level as that which Satan employed when it tempted Our Lord.

    At its basic level, the rapture myth is an escapist form of religious fantasy. It's pretty close to Star Wars, DisneyLand, and the NFL. None of these have anything at all to do with reality. That they are great fun and a constant source of entertainment goes without question. The rapture, however, is more like a poisonous skin rash in that it causes constant irritation, focuses attention upon itself rather than the greater issues of the gospel and provides support for an unending vomitus of lies and deceit. If truth be told, its not even good entertainment.

    The rapture fantasy of the twenty first century had its origins in the mists of nineteenth century millennialism and Dispensationalism. It experienced a surge of support at the beginning of the twentieth century when the American Christian community felt the necessity to accomplish a return to basic Christian beliefs and statements of belief (hence the term Fundamentalism or fundamentalists). During the latter half of the twentieth century in America, rapture-ism achieved its peak of popular support by means of the dissemination not of study and prayer but of sensationalist Christian novels, movies and documentaries. Today, more Americans are aware of the rapture ideology than they are of the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

    Those who have believed the lie of rapturism as gospel truth have forgotten the words of Jesus in the pages of the real gospel when He said that He would NOT pray to the Father to remove His disciples from the earth. He did, however, promise to send a comforter. The work of the Holy Spirit is a long way from a Star Trek beam out, but it is fruitful meaningful work in a very real world with very real issues and consequences. The rapture notion seeks to avoid our responsibilities before God and man. The work of the Holy Spirit challenges it.

    As for the tribulation, I believe that point in history has already passed. It was called the holocaust and I, at least, do not count myself in the number of those anti-semitic types who hope and pray for yet another mass murder of our Jewish brethren. The mere thought of such a thing happening again is disgusting to me. Real Christians should have the same reaction if they really THINK about it. Alas, mental analysis and discipline is yet another virtue lost to Americans these days. There are so few left.

    There's still Disneyland, endless remakes of Star Wars and the NFL to enjoy though.
     
  14. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Well, the tribulation our Lord Jesus spoke of in Scripture like Matt.24 and Mark 13 certainly is not yet past. It actually has not even started. We're in the beginning of sorrows period just prior to its starting.

    The tribulation is set to be especially upon Christ's servants, not a majority of Jews that still refuse Jesus of Nazareth as The Messiah. The delivering up to councils and synagogues is about Christians being delivered to give a Testimony for Christ, not unbelieving Jews. That delivering up is declared within the 5th Seal of Rev.6.

    It is also timed with a time of "Peace and safety" which Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5, and our Lord in Matt.24:6 when all wars will have stopped. It's also when the final antichrist will manifest to the world, and as the "little horn" of Daniel and 7th beast king of Rev.17, will setup his world kingdom over all nations for the end, along with ten specific kings ruling with him over all the earth.

    The Holocaust never saw that level of control and false peace on earth with all wars having stopped.

    It's the Pre-trib Rapture theorists that are most responsible for pushing the fear of all-out war and doom as being what the tribulation is going to be about. For the unbelieving world, it's going to be a time of world peace and joy, as the false one coming is to make craft 'prosper' in his hand and by using peace will destroy many (Dan.8:25). When God's two witnesses come to prophesy during the tribulation, it's going to upset the one-world beast kingdom and nations that love it and worship it. And when those two witnesses are killed, the nations are going to throw parties and give each other presents (Rev.11).

    But for those us who remain in Christ Jesus, we are going to be hated and despised by that majority of the world. And that's how the tribulation is going to be upon us who remain faithful to The Father and His Son. Some of us will be killed for refusing to bow in false worship to the beast and his image. But the majority of the rest of the world will happily bow, take his mark, and continue buying and selling to live just like they are doing now. That's what the Rev.13 world beast kingdom is going to be about, wealth and prosperity for everybody, as long as you bow and worship the coming beast king.

    That beast king is coming to heal all the world's woes, because as written, he's going to exalt himself over all... that is worshiped and all that is called God (2 Thess.2). He could not do that by going around murdering nations and causing battles between the nations. He's coming to bring world peace, though it will be a fake peace. And that's the time of trouble that our Lord Jesus was really... pointing to, the time to really be on guard.

    So in reality, the very end just prior to Christ's return, is going to be like one huge Disney World over all the earth for all nations and peoples that bow to the coming false messiah. The deceived will actually think that God has returned to fix everything.
     
  15. hhogletree

    hhogletree New Member

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    There are many that believe that the word Rapture is nothing but a big joke, with nothing but something to rejoice and laugh about. The word Rapture may not be mention in the Bible, but it is refured back upon many times in the Great Book of the Bible, with no props or strings attached..
    The first things that we now call the Rapture, this is when no one shall then see Christ, but the ones that at that very time which they are being Ruptured, then the last time is when ever man shall see Christ, this is after man have been given there very last chance to be saved, this shall be after the Great Tribulation.
    Herbert
     
  16. TWC

    TWC New Member

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    This is not in the Bible.
     
  17. hhogletree

    hhogletree New Member

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    There are many words that are not in our Bible, but we know that one day they are going to be used, like the word Hot Topic. witch is mostly now only being used in our writing which is Hot Topic, There will be another Hot Topic that is not also in the Bible and that shall be God’s very own Hot Topic when it come to the very end of time, here on earth, this shall be when God shall destroy the whole world with his Hot Topics of fire..
    Herbert
     
  18. 7angels

    7angels Active Member

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    those that have fallen away. what does that mean? does it mean that they are not going to heaven? does it mean that they will go to heaven but don't believe the full truth of what is writen? please explain thanks.
     
  19. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    II Th 2:1-12
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

    Paul's subject: the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering unto Him.


    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    He's saying don't allow 'any' man to deceive you by any means, because before that day will come, there must be a falling away first AND the man of sin revealed...

    revealed doing what?...

    who will exalt himseslf above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


    The "a falling away" phrase is the Greek word 'apostasia'. It's where our English word 'apostate' comes from. To be an apostate means leaving what one had previously held to or believed.

    That "temple" is a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, for that particular working is linked to how Satan originally rebelled against God, in wanting to steal God's Throne (Isaiah 14:12-17). It's also about the "abomination of desolation" warning our Lord Jesus gave from the Book of Daniel. That abomination is about the setting up of idol in the holy place inside a temple in Jerusalem. We've already been given a historical pattern for it with Antiochus Epiphanes back in 165-170 B.C., when he took Jerusalem, sacrificed swine inside the temple, and setup an idol for Zeus worship.

    This event Paul speaks of is about the Revelation 13:11-17 Scripture of a false one coming to cause all the world to take the 'mark of the beast', and bow in false worship to the "image of the beast" he is to setup. Those of us who refuse are to be killed.
     
  20. hhogletree

    hhogletree New Member

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    No I cannot say if anyone is going to Heaven or not, for that is something that only our God or Jesus knows. But I do know that every word that Jesus ever spoke here on earth, it is not recorded in the Bible, for if there was there would not be any book that would be big or Great enough to hold every word that Jesus ever spoke here on earth.
    Looking this word Rapture up in the Dictionary we can see why the people used this word to explain the next coming of our Christ. This word is known as being overwhelming with happiness, with a .joy or experience of being transported from one location to another, as it will also be with our Lord and Savior.
     
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