For Christians still hung up on Evolution...

[Grailhunter]

we don’t believe the Bible alone!

but Divine revelation in tradition and scripture

the church invented science
Most scientists of the 17th thru to the 20th century were catholic and a large part were catholic priests, check out who coined the term “Big Bang” a catholic priest, and the oldest daily weather stations are found at catholic
monasteries

it was an apostate modernist evolutionist priest who faked both the piltdown man and Peking man
(I don’t care if I misspell stuff)
You get the point

we don’t believe the Bible alone!

but Divine revelation in tradition and scripture

the church invented science
Most scientists of the 17th thru to the 20th century were catholic and a large part were catholic priests, check out who coined the term “Big Bang” a catholic priest, and the oldest daily weather stations are found at catholic
monasteries

it was an apostate modernist evolutionist priest who faked both the piltdown man and Peking man
(I don’t care if I misspell stuff)
You get the point

Most scientists of the 17th thru to the 20th century were catholic and a large part were catholic priests

Of course I am going to disagree with most everything here....I have not checked out the weather thing. And no scientists of any time period were mostly Catholic Priests....I will give you that the most educated Catholic priest were Jesuits.

check out who coined the term “Big Bang” a catholic priest

English astronomer Fred Hoyle is credited with coining the term "Big Bang" during a talk for a March 1949 BBC Radio broadcast, saying: "These theories were based on the hypothesis that all the matter in the universe was created in one big bang at a particular time in the remote past."

It is one thing to say you believe what the Bible says..about creation...it is another when you try to twist history. You are talking to the wrong person to get away with that.[/QUOTE]

And I do not deduct for misspelling

 

[theefaith]

Of course I am going to disagree with most everything here....I have not checked out the weather thing. And no scientists of any time period were mostly Catholic Priests....I will give you that the most educated Catholic priest were Jesuits.



English astronomer Fred Hoyle is credited with coining the term "Big Bang" during a talk for a March 1949 BBC Radio broadcast, saying: "These theories were based on the hypothesis that all the matter in the universe was created in one big bang at a particular time in the remote past."

It is one thing to say you believe what the Bible says..about creation...it is another when you try to twist history. You are talking to the wrong person to get away with that.

And I do not deduct for misspelling[/QUOTE]

this ain’t second grade no gold stars for spelling!

 

[ScottA]

I think that gnostic.
The scriptures speak of a literal observing of the Sabbath in the new earth. And a literal recognition of the new moon... One requires weeks, the other requires months.

"Gnostic"--ha! The convenient fallback position against anything spiritual. Well, God is spirit. I wouldn't get carried away.

As for the Sabbath, there are the Sabbaths that point to the Sabbath, and there is the actual Sabbath (meaning rest), which God's rest, which is unavoidably observed for evermore in His presence.

As for the New Moon celebration, this too was pointing to that day of the Harvest of God, also celebrated forevermore in His presence with thanksgiving and praise.

But once fulfilled, that is after God has completed His work and all who are His enter into His rest, there is "no shadow of turning", no times leading up to that perpetual day wherein there is no more night, no more darkness.

 

[farouk]

Hebrews 11.3: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

 

[dhh712]

Hebrews 11.3: "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

Yes, by faith we understand what is the truth--that which is revealed in God's word; it is not to be understood by science. I understand what some Christians are saying about how they accommodate evolution into their theology, but to me by doing that you just can't get away from using the world as a lens through which to view the Bible when it should be the other way around.

God did not give us his word to satisfy our curiosity about everything. It's not a science book (I feel differently about this than my father in the faith, D.H. Hill does--he said it is a science book; but, I do not understand it that way. We differ in our opinions about that. He also called it a military book and a lot of other things. I think he was trying to read into the Bible things that just aren't there. It's God's revelation about who he is--what of himself he wishes to make known to us--and how we can have reconciliation with him after we have been cursed).

I feel if God tells us something about the world, then we should accept it at face value since we believe that he does not lie. We can surely view scientific theories as saying that this is what these things shows us about the world. Maybe it will connect somehow with God's account of creation. But he has not chosen to tell us these things. I just can't get away from how, to me, it feels like giving place to the devil.

But, again, I do not care to argue or look down on my brothers and sisters in Jesus when they hold views that are not essential to the fundamentals of Christianity. This is certainly a gray area. God did not give us an exhaustive account of how he created the world. It was given in very simple description. If believers wish to read into what science tells them about the world and make a connection to God's word by that and still maintain the basic truth of that account, good for them. It is just not something I wish to do. God says it was that way and that's what I'm going to believe is the truth no matter what science shows is factual until I get to my eternal home and we can no more be buffeted by the lies of the devil (if--as I believe it to be but of course I have no way of knowing--the evidence of evolution is a lie of the devil. If it is a further revelation of God, then I will know that it is that way in heaven).

For those who do uphold evolution, I can only imagine because of what science has shown about it (if there's another reason, please correct my misunderstanding), my only question is what if one day (and I believe this will surely be coming) science provides uncontestable proof that God, the way he is depicted in the Bible, is not factual at all?

 

[RedFan]

what if one day (and I believe this will surely be coming) science provides uncontestable proof that God, the way he is depicted in the Bible, is not factual at all?

I can't imagine science ever coming up with such proof, or trying to. That is not the realm of science, which focuses on the physical universe.

 

[dhh712]

I can't imagine science ever coming up with such proof, or trying to. That is not the realm of science, which focuses on the physical universe.

You never know what God may allow to take place on the earth. If he wishes to provide factual evidence from science that he doesn't exist, I believe it is within the realm of his power to do so. I think it is a question believers should be prepared to answer. My pastor was asked this once by a student in a college course he was teaching which is why I thought of it since I had never thought of it before. It does seem impossible, but with quantum physics and all the wild things in that field that we are just beginning to scratch the surface of, you just cannot be too sure.

 

[RedFan]

You never know what God may allow to take place on the earth. If he wishes to provide factual evidence from science that he doesn't exist, I believe it is within the realm of his power to do so. I think it is a question believers should be prepared to answer. My pastor was asked this once by a student in a college course he was teaching which is why I thought of it since I had never thought of it before. It does seem impossible, but with quantum physics and all the wild things in that field that we are just beginning to scratch the surface of, you just cannot be too sure.

But you've told us you ARE sure. "what if one day (and I believe this will surely be coming) science provides uncontestable proof that God, the way he is depicted in the Bible, is not factual at all?"

And I'm just as sure of the opposite. For God to "provide factual evidence from science that he doesn't exist" - assuming He would ever want to falsify evidence -- would require use of scientific method to prove the impossibility of His existence. Science -- scientific method -- just isn't geared to assess evidence that way. Quite the opposite; it operates on observations to draw tentative inferences regarding possibilities. (To understand how "science" operates, I recommend starting with Richard Feynman's observation on the subject.)

And there I think we should leave the matter. Much as I am curious about why you think God would ever falsify evidence, I don't see it leading us anywhere. God bless!

 

[Grailhunter]

Yes, by faith we understand what is the truth--that which is revealed in God's word; it is not to be understood by science. I understand what some Christians are saying about how they accommodate evolution into their theology, but to me by doing that you just can't get away from using the world as a lens through which to view the Bible when it should be the other way around.

God did not give us his word to satisfy our curiosity about everything. It's not a science book (I feel differently about this than my father in the faith, D.H. Hill does--he said it is a science book; but, I do not understand it that way. We differ in our opinions about that. He also called it a military book and a lot of other things. I think he was trying to read into the Bible things that just aren't there. It's God's revelation about who he is--what of himself he wishes to make known to us--and how we can have reconciliation with him after we have been cursed).

I feel if God tells us something about the world, then we should accept it at face value since we believe that he does not lie. We can surely view scientific theories as saying that this is what these things shows us about the world. Maybe it will connect somehow with God's account of creation. But he has not chosen to tell us these things. I just can't get away from how, to me, it feels like giving place to the devil.

But, again, I do not care to argue or look down on my brothers and sisters in Jesus when they hold views that are not essential to the fundamentals of Christianity. This is certainly a gray area. God did not give us an exhaustive account of how he created the world. It was given in very simple description. If believers wish to read into what science tells them about the world and make a connection to God's word by that and still maintain the basic truth of that account, good for them. It is just not something I wish to do. God says it was that way and that's what I'm going to believe is the truth no matter what science shows is factual until I get to my eternal home and we can no more be buffeted by the lies of the devil (if--as I believe it to be but of course I have no way of knowing--the evidence of evolution is a lie of the devil. If it is a further revelation of God, then I will know that it is that way in heaven).

For those who do uphold evolution, I can only imagine because of what science has shown about it (if there's another reason, please correct my misunderstanding), my only question is what if one day (and I believe this will surely be coming) science provides uncontestable proof that God, the way he is depicted in the Bible, is not factual at all?

It isn't the scientist you have to worry about, it is people that have brains that don't work....eyes that don't see....heads that are buried in the sand.

For those who do uphold evolution?!!! For those that have their heads in the sand?!!!

I believe people have the right to believe in whatever they want.....but again this selective denial of science is just stupid.

Again....if you believe that, then the next step is to deny all science....no electricity....no vehicles....no TV....no computers....so this forum is a violation of the science is all bunk, belief....no doctors....no hospitals..... no medicine.

Practice what you believe....practice what you preach....don't be a hypocrite....soap box junkies....go live in the outback

"I am going to prove that evolution is all bunk!.....after I finish watching the football game on my satellite TV and finish eating my microwave popcorn! Mom! Can you turn the A/C down? Get out of your La-Z-Boy and turn it down yourself! I am taking the truck down to have the computer looked at because the satellite radio is not working. Why don't you use the Smart Phone to make an appointment? Mom says, You are right I forgot to take my memory pills that the doctor prescribed. I just remembered did you hear the church is putting in a new satellite network. I don't know mom! Are you sure that won't make it a demon church? By the way have you seen the remote?

Boy! Am I glad that that demon science is not part of our lives mom!

Those people that uphold science are just stupid!

 

[Grailhunter]

Probably Christ's longest discussions were about the Bread and Wine ritual, that a lot of Protestants dismiss, and then on the topic of hypocrisy and then there is lying which is part of this. Don't turn Christianity into a religion of hypocrisy and liars....at least practice what you preach....at least you can say it is your honest belief. If you believe science is wrong....don't have science in your life....if you are like most and have science all around you.... you are lying to yourself and everyone else when you climb on top of that soap box to proclaim science is a lie. Living a lie can be very confusing.

 

[PinSeeker]

Not sure if anything like this has been said:

A distinguishing must be made between micro-evolution and macro-evolution ~ and it has been, initially by the scientific community rather than the Christian community or that of any other faith.

Micro-evolution ~ selection among intraspecific variation ~ is certainly not a theory. There is irrefutable scientific evidence of adaptation within species.

However, macro-evolution ~ selection among interspecific variation is, most assuredly, even in the scientific community, yet a theory ~ which many, many scientists since Charles Darwin have rejected.

In view of this, one has to wonder who is really "hung up" on evolution. It is a very valid and interesting question.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[dhh712]

But you've told us you ARE sure. "what if one day (and I believe this will surely be coming) science provides uncontestable proof that God, the way he is depicted in the Bible, is not factual at all?"

And I'm just as sure of the opposite. For God to "provide factual evidence from science that he doesn't exist" - assuming He would ever want to falsify evidence -- would require use of scientific method to prove the impossibility of His existence. Science -- scientific method -- just isn't geared to assess evidence that way. Quite the opposite; it operates on observations to draw tentative inferences regarding possibilities. (To understand how "science" operates, I recommend starting with Richard Feynman's observation on the subject.)

And there I think we should leave the matter. Much as I am curious about why you think God would ever falsify evidence, I don't see it leading us anywhere. God bless!

Oh sure, that was a bit conflicting. I do believe it will come to pass that God will be proved by science to not be real; I feel this will be the strongest delusion that God will send. Of course, I don't know that it will. I was saying "You can never be too sure" because you just can't be absolutely sure about anything of course except for the truth of God's word.

I wouldn't see that as falsifying evidence. It's allowing us to perceive things using something the devil holds much power over: this world. God's evidence of himself is his word. He can use science to deliver delusions to those who do not love the truth of his word if he so wishes to (as he said he would do in 2Thess). Well, if it is just possibilities, then science can never be said to have concrete and absolute proof of anything, which is one more reason not to act as though it delivers such truth as God's word does.

I think we are getting too much into technicalities; that is what I'm perceiving at least. No, I am no scientist though I do have a scientific background. Though I still do not discount the possibility that there will be verifiable undisputable evidence that science may be able to provide us one day that God does not exist as he is portrayed in the Bible, then I will say that it will be as close to that as is possible then. That sometime in the future to say that the God as he is portrayed in the Bible is real is to say something as ridiculous as that we are actually in reality a bunch of ants living in a great anthill (and not metaphorically speaking) and the earth beneath our feet is a actually a large vat of green jelly. Or something very inane. I don't know how this will all come about because I'm not very disciplined in any of the scientific fields. Yet, as I mentioned before we are just scratching the surface of some very amazing fields out there that we can right now barely understand. While these fields may just provide us a possibility of what is true, I feel that many people will look at this as providing us as absolute truth as many already regard science to be able to provide.

But I wish to dispute with you no further. I respect the Christian evolutionist's position. It is just not my own view. God bless you as well, brother.

 

[dhh712]

Not sure if anything like this has been said:

A distinguishing must be made between micro-evolution and macro-evolution ~ and it has been, by the scientific community and not the Christian community or that of any other faith.

Micro-evolution ~ selection among intraspecific variation ~ is certainly not a theory. There is irrefutable scientific evidence of adaptation within species.

However, macro-evolution ~ selection among interspecific variation is, most assuredly, even in the scientific community, yet a theory ~ which many, many scientists since Charles Darwin have rejected.

In view of this, one has to wonder who is really "hung up" on evolution. It is a very valid and interesting question.

Grace and peace to all.

Yes, micro-evolution (I actually thought it was macro, but that's just likely my mind getting things switched around as it often does) is indisputable or irrefutable (just as I was saying before--there are things that science shows us that are indisputable like micro-evolution. This is what I'm talking about when I'm saying that God will show by science that he doesn't exist, that it will as indisputable as micro-evolution. I suppose it technically is saying that there is only the possibility of micro-evolution, but to me the possibility is so overwhelming that to say it doesn't exist is like denying gravity or to say something completely and utterly inane like the ant example I gave in the previous post or something just as insane; to say that would be to provoke others to you think your mind is quite deranged. So that is what I'm talking about regarding the evidences of science and what it can tell us).

 

[dhh712]

Probably Christ's longest discussions were about the Bread and Wine ritual, that a lot of Protestants dismiss, and then on the topic of hypocrisy and then there is lying which is part of this. Don't turn Christianity into a religion of hypocrisy and liars....at least practice what you preach....at least you can say it is your honest belief. If you believe science is wrong....don't have science in your life....if you are like most and have science all around you.... you are lying to yourself and everyone else when you climb on top of that soap box to proclaim science is a lie. Living a lie can be very confusing.

I actually pointed out that I am very much on board with affirming what science has to say about the world (and by affirming I mean to say, "And this is what science says is factual about the world", and I also feel that this is what should be studied in schools. God has allowed science to give us a great many benefits. What I feel is wrong is when science claims to have absolute truth about the world by denying the claim of God's account of creation calling it is a lie.

I regard science as a useful tool to learn about the world. But when it contradicts God's word, then I sit back and say, "Well that is interesting that we are seeing this, but that is just what the world says and the world is often used as fodder for the deceptions of Satan." As long as I am not denying God's truth by science, all is good. But I do not see the connection between utilizing the benefits of science and it's claim of how the world was created. Is it necessary for me to say "Yes, it seems that science has shown us that God's account of creation is not quite what he has made it out to be" in order for me to enjoy the benefits of science like technology and medicine? I understand that I can refute the one and say "Well, we must not be understanding things about how the world was created correctly even though this is what science is showing us", and still partake of other benefits allowed to us by God through science. If those benefits then turn out to conflict with God's word, then I am all for dispensing with them as well. But I do not know of any of these benefits which do so; please let me know if there might be something like this.

 

[Grailhunter]

I actually pointed out that I am very much on board with affirming what science has to say about the world (and by affirming I mean to say, "And this is what science says is factual about the world", and I also feel that this is what should be studied in schools. God has allowed science to give us a great many benefits. What I feel is wrong is when science claims to have absolute truth about the world by denying the claim of God's account of creation calling it is a lie.

Although I replied to you, what I said was a statement to those that want to live in all the things that science gives us but deny science. With a little bit of humor thrown in. You are talking to someone that worked it, my profession involved the highest science. You guys do not take advantage of that. I know its strong points and I know the holes. Quantum mechanics and Astrophysics. I have worked with them in the labs, I have sat in their offices and cubicles and discussed things they would never say publicly. I have went to dinners with them, been in their homes and drank with them. I still stay in touch with friends at JPL, Caltech, Los Alamos, and Skunk Works.

I can tell you things about them that you do not know and some of it might blow you away. Some scientists are ashiest and some are closet Christians LOL. Some believe in God....or agnosticism....Now the agnostics are interesting....meaning believing in a supreme being but not naming it. In the last ten years a lot of these guys are struggling like a big bass on a hook. The facts are pointing to intelligent design. Look it up, Quantum science has reached a dead end because it is pointing to God.

I am 65 and have been involved with science for a long time and at one time they felt like they had all the answers. The truth is that the more you know, the more you realize what you do not know. They knew the building blocks of evolution...DNA and RNA....but when they looked closer and learned more about DNA they realized it was more or less constructed like a super complicated biological computer program. Too complex to happen by accident....no....impossible to happen by accident....it is not just things strung together, it is things put together that have to work...live...eat...reproduce.

The universe, it does not look like a train wreak. Harmony and organization takes intelligence. The submarines that I was on...the reactor...scientists cannot explain what all is going on in a reactor....sophisticated...yes...but they are still using them more or less as a giant tea kettle...produces extreme heat that super heats fluids to power high speed turbines.

They thought they understood the atom, but they are still finding new things about the atom, and even smaller things...subatomic particles and even intelligent subatomic particles.....part of the awareness of God? Maybe?

Science in the real is attempting to figure out how what God made...works, or how it came to be. How God made and maintains all of reality is pretty complicated....the puff of smoke thing just is not true. The methodology of science has to be atheist in application or all of the scientists in history would just go to work and sign in and write in their logs "God did it all" and go home. And we would still be thinking the earth is flat and stars can fall to the earth. There would be no technology, no medical...all the things we enjoy today, we would not have. Some Christians have issues with science but enjoy the benefits of science, truly a love/hate relationship. Then when they deny science while embracing the life it provides it makes for a religion of non-sense and delusion. And it turns away the youth, we are killing, or working against our own religion.

God is real....Christianity is real....we live in the real and science makes up a good part of our "real"

Beliefs, Truth, and Facts. It is what it is, anything else is an alternate reality. Christians expect the Bible to be forever current, but it is an ancient book written to an ancient people. God could not have explained the complexities of creation to a primitive people. LOL God could not explain the complexities of creation to a modern Quantum scientist...most of it would still be over his head. So He gave them an outline. God could not explain germs and bacteria and cancer to people so demons did it. God could not explain the structures and movements of the universe so it was explained by how it was observed by the people of the time period. The Bible says the earth is on a foundation...pillars...everything revolves around it. A rotating globe that orbits at 36,000 miles an hour? No. It was fixed and flat with a filament.

That does not mean the Bible is not true in context....but rather the context changes. Beliefs, Truth, and Facts. Our faith is placed in God...the Bible gives information about God....but the Bible is not a God....ink to the paper by man....we cannot expect it to be perfect or that all of reality is held static to ancient times. You can see some of this in motion....the King James people...the most error ridden Bible in print....they act like they worship a book! They believe you cannot have God without a Bible. The early Christians did fine without a Bible, centuries before there was a Bible. Believe in God....have faith in God...not a book.

 

[PinSeeker]

Christians expect the Bible to be forever current...

Right, because it is. The Bible itself affirms this, as Peter quotes Isaiah:

"All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the Word of the Lord remains forever." (Peter 1:24-25)
​

God could not have explained the complexities of creation to a primitive people. LOL God could not explain the complexities of creation to a modern Quantum scientist...most of it would still be over his head.

LOL! Wow. No, the problem would be human understanding...

God could not explain germs and bacteria and cancer to people so demons did it. God could not explain the structures and movements of the universe so it was explained by how it was observed by the people of the time period.

I think God would answer scientists much in the manner he answered ~ well, rebuked, really ~ Job, as He did in Job 38-41. A sampling:

“Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements ~ surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" (Job 38:1-7)​

And if these scientists were prudent, they would answer in the manner of Job himself:

"I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted... I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know... I had heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You; therefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:1-6)​

The Bible says the earth is on a foundation...pillars...

This is poetry, and therefore very metaphorical, Grailhunter. Quite similarly, Paul says to us the following:

"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22)​

Only an idiot would presume Paul actually thought we were all inanimate rocks and thus was trying to actually convince us of that, right?

That does not mean the Bible is not true in context....but rather the context changes. Beliefs, Truth, and Facts. Our faith is placed in God...the Bible gives information about God...

Absolutely.

...but the Bible is not a God...

Right, but the Word ~ Jesus ~ is represented in written form by the Bible; every word is about Him in one way or another, as He Himself says in John 5:46 and we see also in Luke 24:25-27.

Believe in God....have faith in God...not a book.

Well, belief and faith are not the same thing. I'm not sure if that's what you're saying here, but the Bible defines faith for itself (God does, actually):

"...faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)​

And this assurance is given by God through the work of the Holy Spirit Who convicts. Our belief follows. And having been given this assurance by God enables us to believe ~ know ~ that every word He has spoken is true, yesterday, today, and forever, as Hebrews 13:8 says of Jesus, the Word made flesh (John 1:14).

Grace and peace to you.