For free will believers out there

[Ronald Nolette]

I think this is the wrong interpretation of Judgement Day. Are you familiar with 'second death' in Scripture?

Yes the one verse that speaks of it is where first death and the grave are destroyed in the lake of fire, then all the lost are tossed in afterwards to suffer forever for their rejection.

So, in your estimation, all babies who die are damned?

I can only tell you what Scripture says:

John 3:3
King James Version

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The word man here is "tis" which means a person. So unless a person is born again they cannot see the kingdom of God.

If God wishes to save the unborn and newly born (infants and toddlers) He said nothing in Scripture about so anything we say is guessing. God deemed it none of our business.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well I think those who exercised faith in ancient hebrew times such as Noah, Abraham, etc will be resurrected and learn more about the scriptures than what they had when they lived on earth before they died. So I'm going to disagree with you.

Well as their souls live now and are in heaven awaiting to be rejoined with their bodies, as Scripture tells us, they need not learn anymore.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have no problem with any of this, with the exception, that in Greek , all has 2 constructions. One means every or all and the other construct means all of a particular group. (pas v. pantos)

But many humans never hear Jesus lifted up. that is simple fact.

Also there is the general call of the gospel (Jesus being lifted up) and the inner call which only the elect hear and respond to.

also you will notice a difference Those that the Father draw, come to Jesus and they will not be cast out! When Jesus draws all men (not as intense as the Fathers draw) who will draw men. The Fathers call is irresistible while the sones call is the general issuing of the gospel.

As Paul said:

2 Corinthians 2:16
To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Yes Jesus blood is for all who will come. 100% true! But the who will come and how they come is the issue.

Jesus blood is enough to save all mankind, but all mankind does not get saved.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, the wrath abides ON them, if they are a Christ Rejector.

Here is something interesting for you..

The reason a person goes to hell, is because they chose to go by rejecting Christ

A lot of believers think you go to hell for a lifetime of sinning, but actually you go to hell then later the lake of fire, for just one Sin.
Its the unpardonable sin = Christ Rejection.

Its the sin of not being born again, that happens because of UNBELIEF, or Christ Rejection.

It is actually that the unbeliever goes to hell because of all the sins he committed; but you are also right. Because he rejected Christ his sins are not forgiven and therefore they place him smack dab in the middle of hell.

But is it because he rejected Christ that he is being punished? I would contend that he is being punished for his sins.

Christ is not some schoolboy who has a crush on His bride and then decides to punish her because she rejected him.

People are punished because they have violated the law of the Lord...

And if they receive Christ's forgiveness through the Cross, they will not be punished because they have received forgiveness.

And of course if they have not received forgiveness through the Cross, they will be punished, not for rejecting the forgiveness of the Cross; but for their unforgiven sins.

Thus, their rejection of the Cross has as its direct result the fact that they are punished for their sins; and in that you are correct, @Behold.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Aaahh.

An Acts skipper in action.

I saw that.

Well then you either have to say that Peter and Paul were preaching two methods of salvation or that in Acts something different was occuring with the Jews gathered right after pentecost.

But water baptism does not remit sins, the blood of jesus does and only believers get baptized! YOu become a christian first then you get baptized!

And no I am not an Acts skipper. I just keep it in its proper place and context.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is actually that the unbeliever goes to hell because of all the sins he committed; but you are also right. Because he rejected Christ his sins are not forgiven and therefore they place him smack dab in the middle of hell.

But is it because he rejected Christ that he is being punished? I would contend that he is being punished for his sins.

Christ is not some schoolboy who has a crush on His bride and then decides to punish her because she rejected him.

People are punished because they have violated the law of the Lord...

And if they receive Christ's forgiveness through the Cross, they will not be punished because they have received forgiveness.

And of course if they have not received forgiveness through the Cross, they will be punished, not for rejecting the forgiveness of the Cross; but for their unforgiven sins.

Thus, their rejection of the Cross has as its direct result the fact that they are punished for their sins; and in that you are correct, @Behold.

Just by faith--- you need to get your head out of Catholic doctrine and learn the bible apart form their commentary.

An unbelieve goes to hell because they are an unbeliever!

He is being punished because he rejected christ and now must pay for his sins himself. but it is the rejection that matters the most.

People are punished because they have rejected th eone who fulfilled and thus rendered the law moot!

NO they are punished fo rejecting the forgiveness, thus having to pay themselves.

Yes their sins determine the level of punishment and their abode in the lake of fire, is because of their rejection of their Savior! It is a both/and with the rejectiont aking priority.

 

[justbyfaith]

Just by faith--- you need to get your head out of Catholic doctrine and learn the bible apart form their commentary.

My head is not in Catholic doctrine.

You have me confused with @theefaith.

An unbelieve goes to hell because they are an unbeliever!

Of course. However, they are not punished for rejecting Christ, they are punished for their sins.

They are not forgiven of their sins because they rejected Christ; and therefore they are punished for their sins as the direct result of rejecting Christ.

He is being punished because he rejected christ and now must pay for his sins himself. but it is the rejection that matters the most.

People are punished because they have rejected th eone who fulfilled and thus rendered the law moot!

NO they are punished fo rejecting the forgiveness, thus having to pay themselves.

Right. I don't disagree with any of these statements. Except I will say that they are punished for their sins, not for rejecting Christ. They are punished for their sins because they rejected Christ and therefore they have rejected forgiveness which is offered by Christ. If they are not forgiven, then they will be punished for their sins.

Kapiche?

Yes their sins determine the level of punishment and their abode in the lake of fire, is because of their rejection of their Savior! It is a both/and with the rejectiont aking priority.

Of course. They are punished for their sins as a direct result of rejecting the forgiveness that Christ offers.

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[theefaith]

My head is not in Catholic doctrine.

You have me confused with @theefaith.



Of course. However, they are not punished for rejecting Christ, they are punished for their sins.

They are not forgiven of their sins because they rejected Christ; and therefore they are punished for their sins as the direct result of rejecting Christ.



Right. I don't disagree with any of these statements. Except I will say that they are punished for their sins, not for rejecting Christ. They are punished for their sins because they rejected Christ and therefore they have rejected forgiveness which is offered by Christ. If they are not forgiven, then they will be punished for their sins.

Kapiche?



Of course. They are punished for their sins as a direct result of rejecting the forgiveness that Christ offers.

matt 25

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[theefaith]

View attachment 13840

View attachment 13840

that would be injustice

 

[justbyfaith]

matt 25

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Of course we know that the regenerated will produce the fruit of being born again and that those who are not regenerated will not.

Also, the regenerated are forgiven of those things that they did or did not do before receiving Christ (Romans 3:25);

While the unregenerated will be punished for the things that they did or did not do for that they never received Christ (1 Corinthians 4:5, Isaiah 57:12).

 

[theefaith]

Of course we know that the regenerated will produce the fruit of being born again and that those who are not regenerated will not.

Also, the regenerated are forgiven of those things that they did or did not do before receiving Christ (Romans 3:25);

While the unregenerated will be punished for the things that they did or did not do for that they never received Christ (1 Corinthians 4:5, Isaiah 57:12).

why does it not say come blessed of my my father you of “faith alone” etc.

 

[theefaith]

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that wesuffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[Renniks]

When you apologize from the last thread for intentionally lying abut "my beliefs" I will bother with you again. Otherwise- NO! I am not interested in your juvenile games.

Interpretation: "I don't have an answer for that, so I'm going to accuse you of being juvenile."

 

[theefaith]

Interpretation: "I don't have an answer for that, so I'm going to accuse you of being juvenile."

peace and charity are Christian virtues
Patience too

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Well as their souls live now and are in heaven awaiting to be rejoined with their bodies, as Scripture tells us, they need not learn anymore.

I disagree with what you said here.

 

[Renniks]

Just by faith--- you need to get your head out of Catholic doctrine and learn the bible apart form their commentary.

An unbelieve goes to hell because they are an unbeliever!

He is being punished because he rejected christ and now must pay for his sins himself. but it is the rejection that matters the most.

Oh, the Irony! The funny thing is, we actually agree on this, but, you have a theology that makes this impossible. No one can reject Christ if he is individually chosen before creation to be saved and no one can accept Christ if he isn't chosen in your theology. So, what do you mean by rejecting Christ?

 

[Enoch111]

Divine election and human responsibility are both scriptural truths, and neither should be emphasized at the expense of the other. While there seems to be a conflict between the two, this conflict exists only in the human mind, and not in the mind of God.

That is only because divine election is grossly misunderstood. God elects the ones who believe to be perfected and glorified (Rom 8:29,30). No one is elected for salvation or damnation. And that is why the preaching of the Gospel is critical.

And He [CHRIST] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk 16:15,16)

[Note: Baptism does not save but must immediately follow salvation. Had God been choosing some for salvation, Christ would have said "He that is elect and believes shall be saved".]

 

[quietthinker]

And your statements are just empty arrogant bloviating from one who knows nothing of me but presumes they do!

The bible is th eWord of God. Just because Satan can quote it does not make th ebible less true!

And I have never taught easy believism. I know that believing in Christ is far far far far more than mouthing words.

I ask no questions. I know th egeneral purposes of God. apart from HIs Word we know nothing of His love, His holiness, His righteousness, and Glory.

Perhaps you need to ask questions. I know for my part that any answers offered without having asked questions are usually pretty shallow if not useless.

 

[justbyfaith]

why does it not say come blessed of my my father you of “faith alone” etc.

I'm not certain that I understand your question.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that wesuffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1Pe 5:10, But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

2Th 3:3, But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.