For free will believers out there

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
My view of the Holy Spirit is different. I view Him as a person. And scriptures are plenty that refers to Him as a person, not just some thing that isn’t a person.

This is a trinitarian invention. The Spirit of '76 is not a person. You know that the Holy Spirit is NOT a person because we do not pray TO but FOR this Spirit. See Galatians 5 for the fruit of this Spirit.

That is scriptures Wrangler. Let me cite a few.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

1 Cor. 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Romans 8:26 26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession, for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And so on and so forth.

And you still have the opportunity to address this part of my post:

“Did Jesus and the Father send the Holy Spirit? I guess this time your answer would be yes. If that is your answer, the following questions among many comes up:

1. Can Jesus send not a person?
2. Can the Father send not a person?
3. What is this Holy Spirit that Jesus and the Father sent, if not a person?

Many more questions comes out that argues against the idea that the Holy Spirit is not a person, but those will do, I guess.”

Tong
R2396

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Did you LOL when you read John 1:1?

And I don’t believe that you think or expect to have refuted what I said by that, nor expect those who read this thread that you have refuted it.

Jesus is not God. No desperate reliance on figurative verses will change that.


Jews: we have one Father: God.

Jesus: 42 I come from the one True God, and I’m not here on My own. He sent Me on a mission.
John 8:41-42 (VOICE)

John 1:1 isn’t figurative at all. And I have shown that in one of my post.

Tong
R2397

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What is the Greek text translated “made” in the KJV?

I don't read ancient Greek, nor does anyone else. This ability has died off after the KJV translators died off.

Folks today just make things up, thus hundreds of new translations are created.

Well that isn’t hard nowadays.

Let me help.

The Greek text translated in the English KJV in John 1:14 as “made” is “egeneto” which means “became”.

Tong
R2398

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You really don’t get it, why I believe that Jesus is the Son of man. I don’t need to know as you seem to need to, to believe that He is whom Jesus say He is, that He is the Son of Man. Scriptures did not say Jesus is “a” Son of Man nor did it say Jesus is the “Son of a Man”, but said He is “the Son of Man”.

Jesus called himself the son of man...

The expression "the Son of man" appears 81 times in the Koine Greek of the four Gospels: 30 times in Matthew, 14 times in Mark, 25 times in Luke and 12 times in John.


This means the son of Mary, and her ancestors.

Jesus was the biological son of Mary.

And among those scriptures are:

Revelation 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

John 6:62What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

And scriptures also said of Jesus that He is the Son of God.

Tong
R2398

 

[Wrangler]

That is scriptures Wrangler. Let me cite a few.

I've delved into these elsewhere but do want you to know that Matthew 28:19 is a corruption. See my thread on my the Apostles Disobeyed the Risen Christ.

“Did Jesus and the Father send the Holy Spirit? I guess this time your answer would be yes.

You do not the Spirit was given to people before Jesus, right?

If that is your answer, the following questions among many comes up:

1. Can Jesus send not a person?
2. Can the Father send not a person?
3. What is this Holy Spirit that Jesus and the Father sent, if not a person?

It's so funny how you construct your questions in the negative. And it is even funnier that you think these are pertinent questions AS IF the only thing that can be sent is a person. I just sent my son, who just went into basic training, a letter. A letter is not a person, correct?

The Holy Spirit of God is like other beings spirit in nature (in some ways). It is not a person. For instance, I have 2 cats. But they have different personalities or spirits, if you will. One always snuggles up with me in bed under my neck. The other one never does that. So, when a cat snuggles up to me in the middle of the night, I do not have to turn the light on to know who it is.

The Apostles stubbornly disregard the trinity in all their letters introduction. This is because the trinity does not exist. There are only 2 beings, God and his Son.

May God the Father and the Lord Jesus the Anointed surround you with grace and peace.
Ephesians 1:2

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
In all that you have said, what is your point? If you are saying that Jesus is a man. I agree.

To reduce what I wrote as merely 'Jesus is a man' is another Appeal to Strawman. My point is there is only one, God, the Father. I reject dualism. Saying "Jesus is a man" MEANS he is not God. To re-iterate post #579 ... Refer to the thread I started on The Case Against Trinitarianism. One verse I read is the 1C. If the plural 'our' in GE 1:26 is important, the singular 'me' in the 1C is even more important.

Another is when Jesus affirmed the SHEMA, the true God is one. Mark 12:29 Jesus: 29 The most important commandment is this: “Hear, O Israel, the Eternal One is our God, and the Eternal One is the only God.

Another verse is John 20:17 were the resurrected Jesus spoke of going to his God. There is only one God and it is Jesus' God. The Apostles affirmed this over and over and over again.

Blessed is God, the Father of our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! Because He has raised Jesus the Anointed from death
1 Peter 1:3 (Voice)

'For Us, there is one God, the Father'
1 Corinthians 8:6

Grace and peace be with you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus the Anointed.
Philippians 1:2 The Voice

31 He has fixed a day of accountability, when the whole world will be justly evaluated by a new, higher standard: not by a statue, but by a living man. God selected this man and made Him credible to all by raising Him from the dead.
Acts 17:31

“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.
Mark 13:32

“The Father is greater than I”
John 14:28?

It is AS IF you do not even recognize what the title of Jesus means. Christ means anointed. Jesus is acted upon. Jesus was anointed by God. (Emphasizing this is one reason I like the VOICE translation. Please tell me you accept in Acts 17:31 that God (in his unitarian nature) selected Jesus, a man; sent Jesus, as Jesus himself said in John 8:41-42.

Well I didn’t reduced it to that, have I? I was asking it that is the point of your post. That is not reducing but clarifying. Please read and understand.

<<<My point is there is only one, God, the Father. I reject dualism.>>>

I reject dualism too.

<<<Saying "Jesus is a man" MEANS he is not God.>>>

Yes, according to human wisdom, but not necessarily so, according to the wisdom of God.

<<<Please tell me you accept in Acts 17:31 that God (in his unitarian nature) selected Jesus, a man; sent Jesus, as Jesus himself said in John 8:41-42.>>>

Yes, I accept not only those scriptures, but all of God’s words in scriptures like John 1:1,14.

You may want to consider the person of Jesus Christ in the following scriptures:

Isaiah 44:6“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

Tong
R2399

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What we can understand is that, if Jesus was not the Messiah, He would be guilty of blasphemy.

Wrong. Now you are doing laps on ground already covered.

Saying it is wrong does not make it wrong.

A passage came to mind. Consider it, where Jesus did not object to what they said concerning Him nor corrected them nor did anything to deny equality with God.

John 5:16 For this reason the Jews and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

Tong
R2400

 

[Wrangler]

<<<Please tell me you accept in Acts 17:31 that God (in his unitarian nature) selected Jesus, a man; sent Jesus, as Jesus himself said in John 8:41-42.>>>

Yes, I accept not only those scriptures

I know you are desperate to move onto other scriptures. You accept these scriptures, you say? The question was do you accept in Acts 17:31 that God (in his unitarian nature) selected Jesus, a man; sent Jesus, as Jesus himself said in John 8:41-42?

These scriptures are explicit and literal. God selected & sent Jesus. The trinity is not in the Bible - not the word, not the idea. The Defense rests.

 

[Grunt Hemlock]

Unitarianism is a crock.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
“Did Jesus and the Father send the Holy Spirit? I guess this time your answer would be yes.

You do not the Spirit was given to people before Jesus, right?

Perhaps. But I was not asking that. I am referring to Jesus and the Father sending the Holy Spirit. But I guess you don’t believe that?

Tong2020 said: ↑
If that is your answer, the following questions among many comes up:

1. Can Jesus send not a person?
2. Can the Father send not a person?
3. What is this Holy Spirit that Jesus and the Father sent, if not a person?

It's so funny how you construct your questions in the negative. And it is even funnier that you think these are pertinent questions AS IF the only thing that can be sent is a person. I just sent my son, who just went into basic training, a letter. A letter is not a person, correct?

The Holy Spirit of God is like other beings spirit in nature (in some ways). It is not a person. For instance, I have 2 cats. But they have different personalities or spirits, if you will. One always snuggles up with me in bed under my neck. The other one never does that. So, when a cat snuggles up to me in the middle of the night, I do not have to turn the light on to know who it is.

The Apostles stubbornly disregard the trinity in all their letters introduction. This is because the trinity does not exist. There are only 2 beings, God and his Son.

May God the Father and the Lord Jesus the Anointed surround you with grace and peace.
Ephesians 1:2

Well you can explain away scriptures that speaks of the Holy Spirit as being a person, by your human wisdom, but I’ll reason with scriptures.

Ananias and his wife lied to the Holy Spirit. And Peter told Ananias, “You have not lied to men but to God.”

Tong
R2401

 

[Behold]

If the plural 'our' is important in Genesis 1, the singular 'me' in the 1C is even more important.

Context. ?????????????

Listen.
God talking about HIMSELF as Plural from, is not the same as Hebrews talking about who they worship.

 

[Behold]

Nope. Why Isaiah 7:14 Is Not A Prophecy of Jesus’ Virgin Birth

Sometimes the hallmark of stupidity is to play the devil's advocate, just for fun.

So, it says....." The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel""

This prophecy is about Jesus, and it confirms God in the Flesh, as "Emmanuel", means, "God with us"'. OR "God has come to us".

 

[Wrangler]

So, it says....." The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel""

This prophecy is about Jesus

No. This is not about Jesus. Even if it were, it does not mean Jesus is God.

 

[Wrangler]

Context. ?????????????

Listen.
God talking about HIMSELF as Plural from, is not the same as Hebrews talking about who they worship.

Context. 1C is a command for us to follow. GE 1:26 is dicta. It is more important that we follow the 1st Commandment. God must have thought it important to put first. We are not to have any other (trinitarian) gods before Him (singular).

 

[Wrangler]

Perhaps. But I was not asking that.

You are not the only one capable on asking questions.

 

[Behold]

No. This is not about Jesus. Even if it were, it does not mean Jesus is God.

One of the ways that you understand that all this "christian stuff" is true, and that none of that Islamic Quran garbage is true, is this...

"the word of Prophesy".

See that? That is how you can come to believe in Jesus..
Its because there are over 100 Prophecies written about Him, written in the Old Testament before Jesus was born, that all happened in REAL LIFE in REAL TIME, exactly as written.
IN other words...... you have the Old Testament, that STATED literal facts about Jesus, thousands of years.... before HE WAS BORN.
Including where he would be born, and how He would die.

The bible, is a book of prophesy, that predicts with perfect 100% accuracy, the Life of Jesus, and it all happened exactly as it was written, before He was born.

That is IMPOSSIBLE< yet it Happen over 100 times....and every fact stated about Him, came to pass, exactly as written.

No other BOOK can do this., because all other books are not TRUTH.
Like..
The book of mormon, or the Quran, or the Hadith.

Only the Word of God, the bible, stated over 100 facts (prophecies) about Jesus, before He was born, and every one of them happened exactly as stated, including the "virgin birth".

 

[Behold]

Context. 1C is a command for us to follow. GE 1:26 is dicta. It is more important that we follow the 1st Commandment. God must have thought it important to put first. We are not to have any other (trinitarian) gods before Him (singular).

Yes, we are not to worship pagan idols, or commit idolatry.
No Mary worship, for example.

Also,
Jesus isn't a pagan God.
He is God in the Flesh, or the "Word" of God.

 

[Wrangler]

IN other words...... you have the Old Testament, that STATED literal facts about Jesus, thousands of years.... before HE WAS BORN.

Agreed. However, the verse you site does not apply to Jesus.

 

[Wrangler]

Yes, we are not to worship pagan idols, or commit idolatry.
No Mary worship, for example.

Also,
Jesus isn't a pagan God.
He is God in the Flesh, or the "Word" of God.

No he is not. Nowhere is the trinity in the Bible. Nowhere does the Bible say what trinitarians claim it says. Of course, they desperately reach for all kinds of text that does not quite support the man-is-God thesis. How to know? The entire Bible was written by anti-trinitarian Jews who reject this doctrine to this day.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Except none of this is true or in the Bible. There is no 3rd person who is God. There is only God and his son. God is Spirit and he is Holy. His Spirit is wholly.

Then you need to read your Bible more. For it is all in there!