For those who believe that Babylon is America…

[BLACK SHEEP]

If Jesus spoke of it first, it simply cannot be the rapture or Paul was mistaken about the mystery.

And the fabrications continue...The only one mistaken about a mystery is Lamad.

Mystery:
primarily that which is known to the mustes, "the initiated" (from mueo, "to initiate into the mysteries;" cp. Phl 4:12, mueomai, "I have learned the secret," RV). In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptual significance is truth revealed. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are "made known," "manifested," "revealed," "preached," "understand," "dispensation." The definition given above may be best illustrated by the following passage: "the mystery which hath been hid from all ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to His saints" (Col 1:26, RV). "It is used of:

It doesn't matter who mentions it first, second or third. The mystery isn't solved until it is accomplished.

Again you're trying to tell people the church isn't present in the book of Revelation after verse 4:1. You say that the saints, brethren, servants, fellowservants, and martyrs are "tribulation saints" who have accepted Christ after the church was raptured. That's another lie that I forgot to put in my list of pre-trib perversions.

Nobody goes to heaven until after the resurrection. People await His return in paradise.

The pre-tribulationist are an embarrassment to God and His church. They do nothing but fabricate, pervert, and diabolically divide God's Word!

Pre-trib fabrications, complications, contradictions, and perversions are endless. God help these people see the truth.

 

[veteran]

iamlamad said:


"The scriptures you pasted are the word of God, and I believe all of it. But you are trying to force a square peg into a round hole, in making that gathering the rapture. it cannot possibly be the rapture, for Paul called his revelation of the rapture a mystery. If Jesus spoke of it first, it simply cannot be the rapture or Paul was mistaken about the mystery.."

No square pegs in my post. Everythng fits exactly as written. The gathering Christ spoke of there is... the gathering of His Church, both the saints Paul said He will bring with Him (1 Thess.4), and the saints still alive on earth at His coming. BOTH of those are covered with those two Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:23-27 Scriptures. Together they align perfectly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

Furthermore, what Apostle Paul called the 'mystery', like in Eph.3, was about the revelation Paul was given that believing Gentiles would be fellowheirs in Christ's Kingdom. Paul also used the word 'mystery' when speaking of how the saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming will be 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' (1 Cor.15). John 5:28-29 by Christ reveals that BOTH resurrections occur on the day of His coming, one for the just and one for the wicked, both at the same time. Paul also used the word mystery to describe the blindness God put upon Israel in part until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Rom.11), and he also used the word mystery concerning Christ crucified and The Gospel per 1 Cor.2. Paul also used the word mystery to shortly describe the mystery of iniquity that began in God's Garden at the end of Gen.3.

But nowhere... is the word 'mystery' used by Paul to describe a Pre-Trib secret rapture. Even Rev.1 which declares every eye shall see Christ coming in the clouds is proof that His coming and our gathering is not... going to be a mystery to the rest of the world, not a secret coming like 1830's John Darby in Britain preached from Irvingite influences. As a matter of fact, Rev.6 and Luke 23 shows the deceived wanting to hide... from Christ at His coming, wanting for the hills and rocks to fall on them out of shame. Even in Rev.11 when God's two witnesses are raised, it happens in plain sight right in front of Christ's enemies in Jerusalem! No such thing as a secret coming of Christ with the Church taken to Heaven and then brought back with a 3rd coming of Christ to the earth.

It's the idea that Christ comes more than a 2nd time that is the square peg trying to be forced into a round hole.

Next, the timing of this gathering is simply DIFFERENT that the timing of the rapture in 1 Thes. 4 & 5. Anyone approaching this with no preconceived glasses can see the difference.

Might want to change your glasses then, because there is NO such "DIFFERENT" time for Christ's gathering of His Church than what is written. Even in 1 Thess.4 & 5 you are cleary shown. Paul said in 1 Thess.4 that those of us who are alive and remain shall in no way precede (KJV "prevent", actually means precede in the Greek) those asleep in Jesus that have already died. Paul further stated there not to worry about them, because Christ will bring them with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:14). It's those who sleep in Jesus that have already died that returns with Him to gather the alive saints still one earth. The saints on earth still are 'changed' like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15, and then joined with the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him, and we all go to Jerusalem where Christ will set down at like Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 declares. Obviously, that is not a secret rapture, and not a rapture off the earth to Heaven to wait out the tribulaiton.

Further in 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul gave us more detail as to the timing... of Christ's coming to gather us. He DIRECTLY linked the events of the "day of the Lord" with Christ coming "as a thief in the night". Peter did the same thing in 2 Pet.3:10. And our Lord Jesus Himself gave a warning about His coming "as a thief" TO HIS CHURCH STILL ON EARTH ON THE 6TH VIAL (Rev.16).

So far, you have offerred nothing but hot air and vanity like, 'anyone with common sense ought to see this'. That's not a method of relating Scripture proof, which you have failed to do so far.

However, Matthew fits perfectly with the Rev. 19 coming of Jesus where the saints come WITH Him. The saints were WITH Him in heaven at the marriage supper of the Lamb (the very same wedding and supper all posttribbers will miss). It is AFTER that that we all get on white horses, and return to earth WITH Him.

Rev.19 fits exactly with 1 Thess.4 & 5 also, and 1 Cor.15, and Rev.1:7, and John 5:28-29, and Rev.6:14-17, and Rev.16:15-21, and Matt.24:29-31, and Mark 13:24-27, and Heb.9:28, and Heb.12:24-29, and Acts 1:11-12, and Zech.14:1-5, and many, many more Scriptures God gave through His OT prophets about the day of The LORD.

They ALL parallel a ONE-TIME return of our Lord Jesus to gather His Church, the asleep saints and His saints still alive on earth at His coming.

The wedding feasts were first used by those like the 1800's Irvingites and John Darby to TRY and MAKE that the 'order' of events to follow for Christ's coming to gather His Church. Their idea with doing that was so they could try... to supplant the order of events and timing for Christ's coming clearly written in those Scriptures I noted above. That's why you Pre-Trib Rapture folks are always trying to INSERT the wedding feast idea in place of the actual given Scripture that declares simply the timing and flow of events.

And this fits perfectly with John 14, that tells us He went to prepare a place for us, and He will then come and get us and take us to that place. Even 5th graders would understand that to be heaven. He is coming to take us to heaven. That is why we are THERE for the wedding. Paul tells us the timing is before the Day of the Lord.

Too bad you haven't done your Old Testament study. If you had, then you would have understood what those "mansions" are that our Lord Jesus mentioned to His disciples there. The word "mansions" means 'abodes' in the Greek, and it's about the abodes of the priests in the Milennial temple written of in the Book of Ezekiel. THAT temple of Ezekiel is shown manifested ON EARTH, along with the tree of life and God's River of the waters of life. It will be a REALITY, ON THE EARTH. Even Gen.2 revealed that River on earth at one time when God's Garden of Eden was here, with it going out of His Garden and parting into 4 other rivers on earth, two which are still identifiable today on earth!

Furthermore, there is NOTHING written there in John 14 about the timing and order of events for Christ's coming and our gathering! So you still... have failed to offer any proof at all for the Pre-Trib Rapture theory you espouse. Your ignorant comments like even little 5th graders understand this just ain't... gonna'... get...er'... done!

And once again, Apostle PAUL and Apostle Peter both linked the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church WITH the "day of the Lord", which Jesus did too with the "as a thief" pointer (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10; Rev.16:15-21). The OT prophets show the same.

You only reveal you haven't been doing your OWN Bible study, but have just soaked up doctrines of men that you choose to listen to instead of our Lord Jesus in His Word.

Sorry, the impossible task for you is to prove that gathering from heaven and not the earth is really the rapture. Good luck with that! The rapture gathers from EARTH and it is before the day of the Lord and 70th week even begins. Perhaps you have overlooked Rev. 7 that shows the church IN HEAVEN before John as begun the week.

I don't have to prove anything...to anyone. God's Word is plain enough on the order of events and timing. It's up to each person to decide whether they want to listen to The LORD Who bought them per His Holy Writ, or to men instead. You're doing the latter.

In Matt.24:29-31 it's the asleep saints gathered by Christ, which aligns with 1 Thess.4 about Christ bringing those WITH Him FROM HEAVEN when He comes. The Mark 13:24-27 Scripture aligns with Christ's gathering His saints that are still alive on earth at His coming, which aligns with what Paul also showed in 1 Thess.4 about those alive ON EARTH being "caught up" by Christ Jesus. Then per Acts 1 and Zech.14 Christ brings both groups as one, to Jerusalem, on earth. And all that will occur "as a thief in the night" on the "day of the Lord" like Paul showed in 1 Thess.5. The elements of men's works will be burned... off this earth on that day also, like Peter showed in 2 Pet.3:10, which is also hard-linked... to Christ's coming "as a thief" too! And did I mention Christ warning His Church on earth on the 6th Vial to remain faithful waiting, for He says there He comes "as a thief"???

(You probably won't understand this, since you've failed to understand even Scripture you keep pushing to try and back up the Pre-Trib Rapture theory of men, but for others that might read this... One of the several 'mysteries' Apostle Paul spoke of was in 1 Cor.15 that we all MUST be 'changed', and that will happen at the "twinkling of an eye". That aligns with the idea of being "caught up" that he taught in 1 Thess.4. We are "caught up" in our SPIRITUAL BODY, the body Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 that we must be changed to when Christ comes for the gathering.

The reason He will bring the asleep saints with Him is because they will have already gone through that change to their spiritual body. The whole... Church is gathered in the 'spiritual body' Paul taught, and then together with Christ go to Jerusalem on earth to begin His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. So if you're one of His, still alive on earth at His coming, you are not going to Heaven, the Heavenly is going to be revealed HERE, ON EARTH at that point on the "last trump", with that change Paul spoke of. That is also when the wicked are changed to their "resurrection of damnation" per John 5:28-29. We ALL are going to go through Christ's Milennium reign in the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.)

Furthermore, what is... the main subject of Rev.7? It is about God's SEALING of His servants. And that sealing is for what??? It is for His ELECT on earth, so they will be able to make a stand THROUGHOUT the "great tribulation"! The first section is about those of Israel sealed by God. Starting at Rev.7:9 is about the believing Gentiles that are sealed, and their having come out of great tribulation and are shown standing WITH Christ upon WHERE? Upon Mount Zion? Yes, which this is linked to the timing of Rev.14 & 15! Well where is that folks? It's at JERUSALEM, ON EARTH, AFTER HIS RETURN. That is also... why those latter Rev.7 verses show those serving Christ within the temple at His throne, i.e., the temple of Ezekiel that will be established on earth by Christ after His return!

So OF COURSE He will come after, but you have MISSED His coming in the air before.

1 thes. 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18


THIS gathering will be before the 70th week begins, and before the Day of the Lord begins.

Lamad

You don't have a clue as to what those Scriptures are teachng. Christ comes "as a thief in the night" ON... the "day of the Lord".

1Thes 5:1-2
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

There's our Lord Jesus giving His Church ON EARTH... ON the 6th Vial, to remain steadfast waiting and watching for His coming, keeping their garments (of righteousness pointing to works in Him). His coming "as a thief" has not happened yet on that 6th Vial. His saints alive on earth are STILL... there even up to that point! And one cannot... say that's only about Jews that later believe on Christ during the tribulation BECAUSE... that "as a thief" timing is hard-linked to the timing Apostle Paul taught to Christ's Church in 1 Thess.5!!!

Note the 7th Vial is poured out WHERE?? On the earth? N0. Well, why not since ALL... the previous 6 Vials are poured out upon the earth?

It's because that 7th Vial is the time of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord" which is also the time His Church on earth is "caught up" into the "AIR" (per 1 Thess.4). That's why that 7th Vial is poured out into the AIR. It signifies the END of this present world earth age, and the coming of the next world and manifesting of the "sons of God" in their "spiritual body".

That's why... Peter showed the elements of man's works will be burned... off this earth on that "day of the Lord" when Christ comes "as a thief"! It is when His enemies on earth are DEFEATED at Armageddon at His second coming! It's when the great hailstones are poured out upon the great army out of the northern quarters coming upon the lands of Israel on the last day of THIS world1 (per Ezekiel 38 & 39, and Rev.16 & 19). THAT is when the flesh bodies of His enemies will melt, per the Zechariah 14 Scripture! That's when God is going to send His consuming fire upon this earth to END this present world!

So if the "day of the Lord" happens with Christ's second coming as written, HOW can ANY of His enemies still be in power upon the earth after that event? How could that event happen BEFORE the "great tribulation" He mentioned and make any... sense???

That's why the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine of MEN is a very dangerous thing to one's soul who believes in it instead of God's written Word. Belief on the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is an excellent way to find oneself cast to the "outer darkness" when our Lord Jesus returns on that "day of the Lord" to gather His Church.

 

[iamlamad]

iamlamad said:


"The scriptures you pasted are the word of God, and I believe all of it. But you are trying to force a square peg into a round hole, in making that gathering the rapture. it cannot possibly be the rapture, for Paul called his revelation of the rapture a mystery. If Jesus spoke of it first, it simply cannot be the rapture or Paul was mistaken about the mystery.."

No square pegs in my post. Everythng fits exactly as written. The gathering Christ spoke of there is... the gathering of His Church, both the saints Paul said He will bring with Him (1 Thess.4), and the saints still alive on earth at His coming. BOTH of those are covered with those two Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:23-27 Scriptures. Together they align perfectly with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

Furthermore, what Apostle Paul called the 'mystery', like in Eph.3, was about the revelation Paul was given that believing Gentiles would be fellowheirs in Christ's Kingdom. Paul also used the word 'mystery' when speaking of how the saints still alive on earth at Christ's coming will be 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' (1 Cor.15). John 5:28-29 by Christ reveals that BOTH resurrections occur on the day of His coming, one for the just and one for the wicked, both at the same time. Paul also used the word mystery to describe the blindness God put upon Israel in part until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled (Rom.11), and he also used the word mystery concerning Christ crucified and The Gospel per 1 Cor.2. Paul also used the word mystery to shortly describe the mystery of iniquity that began in God's Garden at the end of Gen.3.

But nowhere... is the word 'mystery' used by Paul to describe a Pre-Trib secret rapture. Even Rev.1 which declares every eye shall see Christ coming in the clouds is proof that His coming and our gathering is not... going to be a mystery to the rest of the world, not a secret coming like 1830's John Darby in Britain preached from Irvingite influences. As a matter of fact, Rev.6 and Luke 23 shows the deceived wanting to hide... from Christ at His coming, wanting for the hills and rocks to fall on them out of shame. Even in Rev.11 when God's two witnesses are raised, it happens in plain sight right in front of Christ's enemies in Jerusalem! No such thing as a secret coming of Christ with the Church taken to Heaven and then brought back with a 3rd coming of Christ to the earth.

It's the idea that Christ comes more than a 2nd time that is the square peg trying to be forced into a round hole.






Might want to change your glasses then, because there is NO such "DIFFERENT" time for Christ's gathering of His Church than what is written. Even in 1 Thess.4 & 5 you are cleary shown. Paul said in 1 Thess.4 that those of us who are alive and remain shall in no way precede (KJV "prevent", actually means precede in the Greek) those asleep in Jesus that have already died. Paul further stated there not to worry about them, because Christ will bring them with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4:14). It's those who sleep in Jesus that have already died that returns with Him to gather the alive saints still one earth. The saints on earth still are 'changed' like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15, and then joined with the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him, and we all go to Jerusalem where Christ will set down at like Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 declares. Obviously, that is not a secret rapture, and not a rapture off the earth to Heaven to wait out the tribulaiton.

Further in 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul gave us more detail as to the timing... of Christ's coming to gather us. He DIRECTLY linked the events of the "day of the Lord" with Christ coming "as a thief in the night". Peter did the same thing in 2 Pet.3:10. And our Lord Jesus Himself gave a warning about His coming "as a thief" TO HIS CHURCH STILL ON EARTH ON THE 6TH VIAL (Rev.16).

So far, you have offerred nothing but hot air and vanity like, 'anyone with common sense ought to see this'. That's not a method of relating Scripture proof, which you have failed to do so far.





Rev.19 fits exactly with 1 Thess.4 & 5 also, and 1 Cor.15, and Rev.1:7, and John 5:28-29, and Rev.6:14-17, and Rev.16:15-21, and Matt.24:29-31, and Mark 13:24-27, and Heb.9:28, and Heb.12:24-29, and Acts 1:11-12, and Zech.14:1-5, and many, many more Scriptures God gave through His OT prophets about the day of The LORD.

They ALL parallel a ONE-TIME return of our Lord Jesus to gather His Church, the asleep saints and His saints still alive on earth at His coming.

The wedding feasts were first used by those like the 1800's Irvingites and John Darby to TRY and MAKE that the 'order' of events to follow for Christ's coming to gather His Church. Their idea with doing that was so they could try... to supplant the order of events and timing for Christ's coming clearly written in those Scriptures I noted above. That's why you Pre-Trib Rapture folks are always trying to INSERT the wedding feast idea in place of the actual given Scripture that declares simply the timing and flow of events.





Too bad you haven't done your Old Testament study. If you had, then you would have understood what those "mansions" are that our Lord Jesus mentioned to His disciples there. The word "mansions" means 'abodes' in the Greek, and it's about the abodes of the priests in the Milennial temple written of in the Book of Ezekiel. THAT temple of Ezekiel is shown manifested ON EARTH, along with the tree of life and God's River of the waters of life. It will be a REALITY, ON THE EARTH. Even Gen.2 revealed that River on earth at one time when God's Garden of Eden was here, with it going out of His Garden and parting into 4 other rivers on earth, two which are still identifiable today on earth!

Furthermore, there is NOTHING written there in John 14 about the timing and order of events for Christ's coming and our gathering! So you still... have failed to offer any proof at all for the Pre-Trib Rapture theory you espouse. Your ignorant comments like even little 5th graders understand this just ain't... gonna'... get...er'... done!

And once again, Apostle PAUL and Apostle Peter both linked the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church WITH the "day of the Lord", which Jesus did too with the "as a thief" pointer (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10; Rev.16:15-21). The OT prophets show the same.

You only reveal you haven't been doing your OWN Bible study, but have just soaked up doctrines of men that you choose to listen to instead of our Lord Jesus in His Word.





I don't have to prove anything...to anyone. God's Word is plain enough on the order of events and timing. It's up to each person to decide whether they want to listen to The LORD Who bought them per His Holy Writ, or to men instead. You're doing the latter.

In Matt.24:29-31 it's the asleep saints gathered by Christ, which aligns with 1 Thess.4 about Christ bringing those WITH Him FROM HEAVEN when He comes. The Mark 13:24-27 Scripture aligns with Christ's gathering His saints that are still alive on earth at His coming, which aligns with what Paul also showed in 1 Thess.4 about those alive ON EARTH being "caught up" by Christ Jesus. Then per Acts 1 and Zech.14 Christ brings both groups as one, to Jerusalem, on earth. And all that will occur "as a thief in the night" on the "day of the Lord" like Paul showed in 1 Thess.5. The elements of men's works will be burned... off this earth on that day also, like Peter showed in 2 Pet.3:10, which is also hard-linked... to Christ's coming "as a thief" too! And did I mention Christ warning His Church on earth on the 6th Vial to remain faithful waiting, for He says there He comes "as a thief"???

(You probably won't understand this, since you've failed to understand even Scripture you keep pushing to try and back up the Pre-Trib Rapture theory of men, but for others that might read this... One of the several 'mysteries' Apostle Paul spoke of was in 1 Cor.15 that we all MUST be 'changed', and that will happen at the "twinkling of an eye". That aligns with the idea of being "caught up" that he taught in 1 Thess.4. We are "caught up" in our SPIRITUAL BODY, the body Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 that we must be changed to when Christ comes for the gathering.

The reason He will bring the asleep saints with Him is because they will have already gone through that change to their spiritual body. The whole... Church is gathered in the 'spiritual body' Paul taught, and then together with Christ go to Jerusalem on earth to begin His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. So if you're one of His, still alive on earth at His coming, you are not going to Heaven, the Heavenly is going to be revealed HERE, ON EARTH at that point on the "last trump", with that change Paul spoke of. That is also when the wicked are changed to their "resurrection of damnation" per John 5:28-29. We ALL are going to go through Christ's Milennium reign in the "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.)

Furthermore, what is... the main subject of Rev.7? It is about God's SEALING of His servants. And that sealing is for what??? It is for His ELECT on earth, so they will be able to make a stand THROUGHOUT the "great tribulation"! The first section is about those of Israel sealed by God. Starting at Rev.7:9 is about the believing Gentiles that are sealed, and their having come out of great tribulation and are shown standing WITH Christ upon WHERE? Upon Mount Zion? Yes, which this is linked to the timing of Rev.14 & 15! Well where is that folks? It's at JERUSALEM, ON EARTH, AFTER HIS RETURN. That is also... why those latter Rev.7 verses show those serving Christ within the temple at His throne, i.e., the temple of Ezekiel that will be established on earth by Christ after His return!







You don't have a clue as to what those Scriptures are teachng. Christ comes "as a thief in the night" ON... the "day of the Lord".

1Thes 5:1-2
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
(KJV)

There's our Lord Jesus giving His Church ON EARTH... ON the 6th Vial, to remain steadfast waiting and watching for His coming, keeping their garments (of righteousness pointing to works in Him). His coming "as a thief" has not happened yet on that 6th Vial. His saints alive on earth are STILL... there even up to that point! And one cannot... say that's only about Jews that later believe on Christ during the tribulation BECAUSE... that "as a thief" timing is hard-linked to the timing Apostle Paul taught to Christ's Church in 1 Thess.5!!!

Note the 7th Vial is poured out WHERE?? On the earth? N0. Well, why not since ALL... the previous 6 Vials are poured out upon the earth?

It's because that 7th Vial is the time of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord" which is also the time His Church on earth is "caught up" into the "AIR" (per 1 Thess.4). That's why that 7th Vial is poured out into the AIR. It signifies the END of this present world earth age, and the coming of the next world and manifesting of the "sons of God" in their "spiritual body".

That's why... Peter showed the elements of man's works will be burned... off this earth on that "day of the Lord" when Christ comes "as a thief"! It is when His enemies on earth are DEFEATED at Armageddon at His second coming! It's when the great hailstones are poured out upon the great army out of the northern quarters coming upon the lands of Israel on the last day of THIS world1 (per Ezekiel 38 & 39, and Rev.16 & 19). THAT is when the flesh bodies of His enemies will melt, per the Zechariah 14 Scripture! That's when God is going to send His consuming fire upon this earth to END this present world!

So if the "day of the Lord" happens with Christ's second coming as written, HOW can ANY of His enemies still be in power upon the earth after that event? How could that event happen BEFORE the "great tribulation" He mentioned and make any... sense???

That's why the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine of MEN is a very dangerous thing to one's soul who believes in it instead of God's written Word. Belief on the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is an excellent way to find oneself cast to the "outer darkness" when our Lord Jesus returns on that "day of the Lord" to gather His Church.

Veteran, you are as far from the truth as East is from West. You STILL have a square peg.

1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Sorry, there is no part of a catching up here. There is no hint or one word about "gathering." The "gathering come AFTER HE STOPS in the AIR. And even then, Paul does not use the word "gathering" here in this passage. neither is there a mention of angels. We instantly get angel's bodies and will have no need of angelic help. We are snatched up by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
There is not one hint here that Jesus is on a white horse. Paul further tells us that at this SUDDENLY event, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction." Paul gives us a very strong hint that this sudden destruction will be the start of the Day of the Lord, else why even mention it when he is talking about the rapture? Paul is telling us these two are back to back events, the rapture CAUSES the start of the DAY. So the truth is, there is NO alignment between Matthew 24, and 2 Thes. 4. These are two separate events for two different purposes at two different times, over seven years apart.

Further in 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul gave us more detail as to the timing... of Christ's coming to gather us. He DIRECTLY linked the events of the "day of the Lord" with Christ coming "as a thief in the night"

yes, it is plain as day, there are TWO comings and BOTH are as a thief in the night - a time no one will know.

John 5:28-29 by Christ reveals that BOTH resurrections occur on the day of His coming, one for the just and one for the wicked, both at the same time

Sorry, but John is very clear that the resurrection for the wicked, the second resurrection, comes 1000 years after. You are mistaken again - but why should I be surprised? It is very clear in Rev. 20: two resurrections, one very honorable one for the righteous, and one dishonorable for the sinners - but 1000 years later. How did you get so far off?

The mystery I was speaking of was of course "Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep but we all will be changed..."
Where else does Paul speak of this change? Of course in 1 thes. 4. We get resurrection bodies the moment those alive and remain are snatched up. So 1 Cor. 15 is talking about the rapture of the Bride as shown in 1 thes 4. Try as you might to make these two different events - they are not. And Paul said this changing of our bodies - which will happen at the rapture, was a Mystery. If you believe 1 Thes. and Matthew 24 to be about the same event, then Jesus gave Paul's mystery away and Paul could not have written mystery.

Sorry, but it is plain to those without preconceived glasses that Jesus comes before the week for the Saints and after the week WITH the saints. But not fret: soon you will wake up and find it happened and you will be left behind wondering.....

Sorry, it is only the REMNANT of His church left, plus all those that turn to God during the last half of the week. OF COURSE there are believers on earth at the 6th vial, but this does not mean the BRIDE, who will have taken God's way of escape and are safe in heaven. Soon they will partake of the marriage and supper in heaven. Those on earth, IF they survive, will not see the wedding or supper, unless they are called up with the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial. Yes, there WILL BE a rapture at the 7th vial, NOT HIS coming, which will take place some unknown time after the 7th vial. Jesus said He would raise up the Old Testament saints on the "last day."

It's because that 7th Vial is the time of Christ's coming on the "day of the Lord" which is also the time His Church on earth is "caught up" into the "AIR" (per 1 Thess.4). That's why that 7th Vial is poured out into the AIR. It signifies the END of this present world earth age, and the coming of the next world and manifesting of the "sons of God" in their "spiritual body".

This is total and complete fabrication and myth. Veteran, did you not read chapter 19? Did you just SKIP the wedding and supper that takes place in heaven AFTER the 7th vial? Jesus does not come on the 7th vial. that is total myth. the 7th vial DOES signify the end of the Old Covenant which will end at the end of the 70th week. SO this marks the END of the 70th week. The Day of the Lord will continue on. BOTH started at the 7th seal. There will be a catching up here. It will be the resurrection of the OLD TESTAMENT saints. So for once, Veteran, I can partially agree with you. Jesus said five or six times in John 6 that He would raise them up "on the last day." THIS, the day of the 7th vial, is the last 24 hour period of the Old Covenant. However, having said that, the bride of Christ will already be in heaven, being the great crowd which no one could number in chapter 7. Even these that are caught up here DO NOT GO TO JERUSALEM, but are caught up into heaven as guests for the wedding. There simple IS NO GATHERING in chapter 19 when Jesus finally comes to earth. The BRIDE will come With Him as well as the newly Resurrected Old Testament saints, plus the angels. My guess is most from heaven will come With Jesus.

Rev.19 fits exactly with 1 Thess.4 & 5 also, and 1 Cor.15, and Rev.1:7, and John 5:28-29, and Rev.6:14-17, and Rev.16:15-21, and Matt.24:29-31, and Mark 13:24-27, and Heb.9:28, and Heb.12:24-29, and Acts 1:11-12, and Zech.14:1-5, and many, many more Scriptures God gave through His OT prophets about the day of The LORD.

They ALL parallel a ONE-TIME return of our Lord Jesus to gather His Church, the asleep saints and His saints still alive on earth at His coming.

Again, mostly myth. There is no gathering in chapter 19, anywhere. You need to study 1 Thes. 5 a little more. Paul shows us the rapture delivers people from "sudden destruction" that comes AT THE SAME TIME as the rapture. What is this sudden destruction? It is the world wide earthquake CAUSED by the dead in Christ rising. Why did Paul mention the Day of the Lord? Because this sudden destruction is the same warning for the DAY as given in Rev 6, Remember after this great earthquake they call for the mountains to fall on them, for they KNOW "the day of His wrath has come." Veteran a simple reading of Rev 6 destroys your theories. They knew and John knew and the Holy Spirit that caused John to write knew that this was the warnings of the imminent coming of the Day of the Lord. yet your theory wants to force the Day ahead for 7 years. In that case all would have forgotten the signs in chapter 6. No, the intent of the author is that the start of the Day is imminent and it actually starts at the 7th seal and with the first trumpet. Veteran, this is the truth of the word. Isaiah 2 and Joel 2 backs this up. Perhaps you need to read again all the Old Testament writings about the Day of the Lord. One says it comes a DESTRUCTION. What does the first trumpet do? it DESTROYS.

Sorry, but your theory of the wedding feast is also myth. Why do you attempt to move it from where John wrote it? Do you imagine the Holy Spirit did not know WHEN it would take place? John wrote it exactly where it will take place, AFTER the 7th trump when the Old Testament saints rise, so they will be there as guests, and BEFORE Jesus comes on the white horse?

Veteran, may I make a suggestion? ERASE all your theories and START OVER! This time allow the WORDS of the book to form your theories. Again, you are trying to force a round peg into a square hole. Leave the wedding exactly where God put it! Leave His coming on the white horse exactly where John put it, AFTER the wedding which will be AFTER the 7th vial.

So if the "day of the Lord" happens with Christ's second coming as written, HOW can ANY of His enemies still be in power upon the earth after that event? How could that event happen BEFORE the "great tribulation" He mentioned and make any... sense???

That's why the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine of MEN is a very dangerous thing to one's soul who believes in it instead of God's written Word. Belief on the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine is an excellent way to find oneself cast to the "outer darkness" when our Lord Jesus returns on that "day of the Lord" to gather His Church.

You have no concept of the real Day of the Lord. It will begin with the 70th week with the first trumpet and continue on past the 1000 years. It is an extended period of time, NOT ONE DAY. OF COURSE during a part of that day, from the midpoint to the end of the week, the man of sin will have his 42 months; it is still a part of the Day of the Lord. Finally he will be captured and thrown into the lake of fire - still a part of the Day of the Lord. Finally Satan will be bound - still a part of the Day of the Lord.

Too bad you haven't done your Old Testament study. If you had, then you would have understood what those "mansions" are that our Lord Jesus mentioned to His disciples there. The word "mansions" means 'abodes' in the Greek, and it's about the abodes of the priests in the Milennial temple written of in the Book of Ezekiel. THAT temple of Ezekiel is shown manifested ON EARTH, along with the tree of life and God's River of the waters of life. It will be a REALITY, ON THE EARTH. Even Gen.2 revealed that River on earth at one time when God's Garden of Eden was here, with it going out of His Garden and parting into 4 other rivers on earth, two which are still identifiable today on earth!

Sorry, there are real mansions in heaven. It is written many times that Jesus went to HEAVEN to be at the Father's right hand. That is why He said "in my FATHER's HOUSE are many mansions. A mansion is an abode: it is where we are going to LIVE during the 7 years - - but I use the we too losely, for you will not be there. Only those who BELIEVE in a pretrib rapture will be there. Where did Jesus go again? He went to HEAVEN.
HE said, "I go to [heaven] prepare a place for you [in heaven].3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am [in heaven] , there you may be also.

How silly would it be if it read like this? "I go to [heaven] prepare a place for you [in heaven].3 And if I go [to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am [on earth] , there you may be also.

Sorry, this is just plain silly as are many of your theories.

Your threats of outer darkness are without excuse. Your heart is hard and you are speaking from a wrong spirit. The truth is, postribbers will be left behind because they do not BELIEVE in Jesus coming first. I have tried to teach you truth, but your ears are stopped and you will not believe. There is little anyone can do unless you admit you just could be wrong. I have shown time and time again your theories do not fit what is written. Classic example is the Beast being Satan. Classic example: Paul saying "and now you know what is restraining..." You are simply mistaken there as you are about the rapture. Worse yet, you do not know you are mistaken. Worse yet, you are trying to teach others. Paul would call you a wolf in sheep's clothes, someone teaching a doctrine Paul did not teach. Not only are you very wrong, you are trying your best to make others stumble as you have. Being a teacher is not something everyone should try. We will CERTAINLY be accountable for what we teach.

Lamad

 

[Trumpeter]

The truth is, postribbers will be left behind because they do not BELIEVE in Jesus coming first.

Lamad

Thus says the Lord YahuShua: I am coming for those who are Mine, who I see of Myself in them, and for those little ones who remain in their innocence.
And of those, who carry Me within them, these look for My coming and know it is nigh, for they are fully awake in Me, and wait anxiously with kinked necks.
And those who truly love Me, yet gaze as one having man’s veil atop their heads, not believing those who are Mine will escape but will endure great tribulation, these shall also be taken according to that which their hearts reveal, in spite of their error, for these have also passed from judgment into the Light of Life. It is only the leaders in the churches of men, who led them astray, according to their own arrogance and false doctrine, who shall be left.

I search the hearts and minds! Says the Lord.​

​

​

Excerpt from:​

I Search the Hearts and Minds​

http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=I_Search_the_Hearts_and_Minds​

 

[ENOCH2010]

Lamad ,where in the Bible is it that says, people have to accept Jesus as their savior AND believe in the pre-trib doctrine to go to heaven?

 

[veteran]

Veteran, you are as far from the truth as East is from West. You STILL have a square peg.


Is that the best you can do, you white-washed wall?



1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Sorry, there is no part of a catching up here. There is no hint or one word about "gathering." The "gathering come AFTER HE STOPS in the AIR. And even then, Paul does not use the word "gathering" here in this passage. neither is there a mention of angels. We instantly get angel's bodies and will have no need of angelic help. We are snatched up by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

It's part of the event of Christ Jesus' coming to gather His saints, from Heaven and from the earth.

The fact that Apostle Paul emphatically said Jesus "will bring" those asleep saints WITH HIM when He comes certainly DESTROYS your beloved Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine of devils.

Why?

Because the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory of men teaches Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven, and then after the trib the WHOLE CHURCH returns FROM HEAVEN with Jesus back to this earth.

Problem for the Pre-tribbers: Paul is teaching at Christ's coming He gathers the asleep saints ONLY... from Heaven, and brings them with Him. That's back to where? BACK TO THIS EARTH. He also gathers His Church that remains on earth at that SAME... time.

If the Pre-Trib Rapture theory were true, then Paul should have said that Jesus brings ALL the saints back to earth with Him from Heaven. Paul said only the asleep saints Christ will bring with Him when He comes, i.e., those in Christ that had already died.


There is not one hint here that Jesus is on a white horse. Paul further tells us that at this SUDDENLY event, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction." Paul gives us a very strong hint that this sudden destruction will be the start of the Day of the Lord, else why even mention it when he is talking about the rapture? Paul is telling us these two are back to back events, the rapture CAUSES the start of the DAY. So the truth is, there is NO alignment between Matthew 24, and 2 Thes. 4. These are two separate events for two different purposes at two different times, over seven years apart.

Jesus returns riding a white horse per Rev.19:11 forward. That is a description of The Lord Jesus and none else. We are even told there His Name is "The Word of God". That Title belongs to none else but Christ Jesus Himself.

Your so-called 'Rapture' doesn't happen on the "day of the Lord" according to your false teachers of the doctrine! WOW! You don't even understand that do you? The Pre-Trib doctors instead teach Jesus returns at the START of the tribulation, not to end it on the "day of the Lord" like Scripture actually states. How is it you're married to the false Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine and you don't know that??

Too late, I've already PROVEN that Paul said the very SAME thing as Jesus did in Matt.24 about His coming and gathering of His Church. Jesus brings those who sleep in Jesus from Heaven WITH Him when He comes, and at the same time gathers His Church that remains on earth with them, WHILE He is returning BACK TO THIS EARTH. That perfectly aligns with Matt.24:29-31 which is about the saints gathered from Heaven, and Mark 13:24-27 which is about the saints gathered from the earth. TWO gathered LOCATIONS!

Then Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 declare WHERE Jesus returns to bringing both groups, i.e., to Jerusalem ON EARTH.

 

[John S]

To me, Lamad seems like an angy young(?) man who doesn't like it when people disagree with him. It's like he is personally offended that some people don't believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture. He claims that 5th graders are more intelligent than we are.
Apparently, MANY Pre-Tribbers believe that if we don't agree with them, then God is going to keep us out of Heaven.

 

[veteran]

It's like the old joke about a certain denomination. A new guy in Heaven sees a divider wall and asks what it's for. He's told, "That's for the <unnamed denomination>; they like to think they're the only ones here."

 

[iamlamad]

To me, Lamad seems like an angy young(?) man who doesn't like it when people disagree with him. It's like he is personally offended that some people don't believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture. He claims that 5th graders are more intelligent than we are.
Apparently, MANY Pre-Tribbers believe that if we don't agree with them, then God is going to keep us out of Heaven.

I am not angry. And I am far from young. Did you ever wonder, will God be offended if you refuse His plan of escape?

It seems Posttribbers cannot simply discuss scriptures; they get angry and throw insults. I have seen it for years. This forum is not an isolated case. The reason is very simple: doctrines of devils are always backed up by devils, and devils, when you resist them, get angry.

When we compare Islam to Christianity, which side wants to murder people that do not agree with them?

John, everything we get from heaven, we get by faith. It is very simple, if you have no faith in a pretrib rapture, when it happens I suspect you will be left behind - because you don't believe it. Of course you can still make it to heaven, but it will be by way of death. This will be the posttribbers fate:

Rev 14:
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’”
Rev 15
2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God.

This is where I will be found:

Rev 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands

Posttribbers could be in this group too, if they would only soften their heart and accept God's plan of escaping all these things.

Luk 21
34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

It will come upon posttribbers as a snare, totally unexpected. Why? The answer is found in 1 Thes. 5. The pretrib rapture will be the trigger for the Day. You know, that day when Jesus comes FIRST to take pretribbers home to heaven. The first thing posttribbers will know is that a sudden worldwide earthquake hits planet earth....and when things settle, they will find untold millions have disappeared. Will posttribbers live through the worldwide earthquake's "sudden destruction?" Perhaps some will - perhaps some won't. DON'T BE IN THIS BUNCH! Take God's plan to escape all these things!

Lamad

Veteran, you are as far from the truth as East is from West. You STILL have a square peg.


Is that the best you can do, you white-washed wall?



1 Thes 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Sorry, there is no part of a catching up here. There is no hint or one word about "gathering." The "gathering come AFTER HE STOPS in the AIR. And even then, Paul does not use the word "gathering" here in this passage. neither is there a mention of angels. We instantly get angel's bodies and will have no need of angelic help. We are snatched up by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

It's part of the event of Christ Jesus' coming to gather His saints, from Heaven and from the earth.

The fact that Apostle Paul emphatically said Jesus "will bring" those asleep saints WITH HIM when He comes certainly DESTROYS your beloved Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine of devils.

Why?

Because the false Pre-Trib Rapture theory of men teaches Christ's Church is raptured to Heaven, and then after the trib the WHOLE CHURCH returns FROM HEAVEN with Jesus back to this earth.

Problem for the Pre-tribbers: Paul is teaching at Christ's coming He gathers the asleep saints ONLY... from Heaven, and brings them with Him. That's back to where? BACK TO THIS EARTH. He also gathers His Church that remains on earth at that SAME... time.

If the Pre-Trib Rapture theory were true, then Paul should have said that Jesus brings ALL the saints back to earth with Him from Heaven. Paul said only the asleep saints Christ will bring with Him when He comes, i.e., those in Christ that had already died.


There is not one hint here that Jesus is on a white horse. Paul further tells us that at this SUDDENLY event, those living in darkness get "sudden destruction." Paul gives us a very strong hint that this sudden destruction will be the start of the Day of the Lord, else why even mention it when he is talking about the rapture? Paul is telling us these two are back to back events, the rapture CAUSES the start of the DAY. So the truth is, there is NO alignment between Matthew 24, and 2 Thes. 4. These are two separate events for two different purposes at two different times, over seven years apart.

Jesus returns riding a white horse per Rev.19:11 forward. That is a description of The Lord Jesus and none else. We are even told there His Name is "The Word of God". That Title belongs to none else but Christ Jesus Himself.

Your so-called 'Rapture' doesn't happen on the "day of the Lord" according to your false teachers of the doctrine! WOW! You don't even understand that do you? The Pre-Trib doctors instead teach Jesus returns at the START of the tribulation, not to end it on the "day of the Lord" like Scripture actually states. How is it you're married to the false Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine and you don't know that??

Too late, I've already PROVEN that Paul said the very SAME thing as Jesus did in Matt.24 about His coming and gathering of His Church. Jesus brings those who sleep in Jesus from Heaven WITH Him when He comes, and at the same time gathers His Church that remains on earth with them, WHILE He is returning BACK TO THIS EARTH. That perfectly aligns with Matt.24:29-31 which is about the saints gathered from Heaven, and Mark 13:24-27 which is about the saints gathered from the earth. TWO gathered LOCATIONS!

Then Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 declare WHERE Jesus returns to bringing both groups, i.e., to Jerusalem ON EARTH.

"It's part of the event of Christ Jesus' coming to gather His saints, from Heaven and from the earth. "

In your mind it is, but not in Paul's and not in God's and not in any pretrib mind. "even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." Do you find "gather" here? I only find BRING. I am not dead, and neither are you. We are not in this part of this passage.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....This is the start of the event we call the rapture. Posttribbers call it the "second coming." They are right for this will be the second time He comes, and Paul CALLS it a coming. Jesus decends, and shouts, and a trumpet sounds. The dead in christ rise first, but a split second later, those of us alive and in Christ rise. THIS is the "gathering."
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

We at that time meet Jesus in the air. What did Paul say? "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him." It is at this moment we are gathered together in the air: both the dead in Christ and the LIVE in Christ together at one time and one place.

The spirits of those dead in Christ MUST return to earth to get their newly resurrected body. It is ON the EARTH. But as soon as they become ONE again with their new body, they will be JUST LIKE those who were alive and remain..so together they meet Jesus in the air and He takes us to the places He has prepared for us. Plain and simple.

There are two questions people stumble over: WHERE and WHEN.

Jn 14
2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.[b] 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

This is where He receives us to Himself - at the gathering in the air. But then WHERE? He answers this: WHERE I AM, there you may be also. WHERE did He prepare the mansions? WHERE did He go to prepare the mansions? OF COURSE TO HEAVEN!

This is conclusive proof this is NOT His coming in Rev. 19. There His destination is Armageddon. AT the rapture His destination is HEAVEN. See how simple this is? A child wound not err.

Posttribbers want to find a "gathering" in Rev. 19. In fact, there IS a gathering there:

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,

Sorry, posttribbers, this is NOT the gathering of the saints to HIM. THERE IS NO rapture when Jesus comes on the white horse.

So the first way to answer the WHEN is it absolutely cannot be when Jesus comes in Rev. 19, for HIs destination is down, not up.
Paul gives us the WHEN. HIS rapture is the trigger for the Day of the Lord.

Therefore, posttrib doctrine is a wrong as someone going the wrong way on a one way street. They imagine Jesus' direction as down when it will be UP!! IT is exactly like a square peg in a round hole - just won't work. They imagine a gathering from heaven is the rapture: nothing could be farther from the truth. The rapture gathers from the earth. They imagine there is a gathering when Jesus comes on the white horse, and here they are right - there IS a gathering then, but the WRONG ONE. They imagine the start of the Day of the Lord 7 years after God starts it. Postrib doctrine is made up of falsehoods. Readers, beware of this false doctrine. There is not one hint that Matt. 24 is speaking of the rapture of the church. Anyone can find the word "gather" there, and associate it with the word "gather" speaking of the rapture; but a careful study shows it is not the right gathering. And this is the MAIN PILLAR of posttrib doctrine: nothing but imaginations.

Lamad

 

[BLACK SHEEP]

I am not angry. And I am far from young. Did you ever wonder, will God be offended if you refuse His plan of escape?

Have you ever wondered if you offend God by continually perverting His Word?

 

[veteran]

In your mind it is, but not in Paul's and not in God's and not in any pretrib mind. "even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." Do you find "gather" here? I only find BRING. I am not dead, and neither are you. We are not in this part of this passage.


Let's see, what problem are you having with English now? Bring, to carry, keep, lead away, all ways in the KJV that Greek word was translated. And to be more precise, it's actually about the asleep saints having already... been with Him in Heaven, and at His return He 'brings' them WITH Him, and Paul associates that with the "caught up" event of those who remained on earth.

The one thing it does NOT mean, it does not mean ALL Christ's Church were previously 'raptured' to Heaven. It means ONLY those saints that have died are those He 'brings' with Him at His return, the rest of His Church remains still on earth.

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrines of men instead claim the whole Church is raptured to Heaven prior to the tribulation, and the whole Church then returns WITH Jesus after... the tribulation. And they strongly... rely on Paul's "caught up" idea in 1 Thess.4. But strange... how they totally... leave out what Paul said in that 1 Thess.4:14 about ONLY the asleep saints returning with Jesus!

Now if you don't really care... that they are telling lies to you, and you still want to believe them instead of God's Word as written, then you have every right to be wrong and deceived if that's what you want. Go to.



16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....This is the start of the event we call the rapture. Posttribbers call it the "second coming." They are right for this will be the second time He comes, and Paul CALLS it a coming. Jesus decends, and shouts, and a trumpet sounds. The dead in christ rise first, but a split second later, those of us alive and in Christ rise. THIS is the "gathering."
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

Anyone else here besides iamlamad that wants to just SKIP over Paul's 1 Thess.4:13-15 verses, and go directly to the 16-17 verses?

1Thes 4:13-15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(KJV)

The asleep saints that have died return with Jesus, Paul says Jesus will bring them with Him.

He also said that we which are alive and remain until Christ's coming shall not prevent ("precede" per the Greek) those which are asleep (that have died). That means they are in Heaven with Christ prior to us who remain alive on earth unto His coming. It's really easy.

The 1 Thess.4:16-17 verses are then about our gathering from the earth by Christ when He comes, which is also when... He brings the asleep saints with Him.

What that reveals is the complete opposite of what the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine teaches.

The Scripture reveals a ONE-TIME coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 24:29-31 shows His angels gather His saints from the heavenly, and then Mark 13:24-27 shows His angels gather His from the earth. It's simple as that.

 

[iamlamad]

In your mind it is, but not in Paul's and not in God's and not in any pretrib mind. "even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." Do you find "gather" here? I only find BRING. I am not dead, and neither are you. We are not in this part of this passage.


Let's see, what problem are you having with English now? Bring, to carry, keep, lead away, all ways in the KJV that Greek word was translated. And to be more precise, it's actually about the asleep saints having already... been with Him in Heaven, and at His return He 'brings' them WITH Him, and Paul associates that with the "caught up" event of those who remained on earth.

The one thing it does NOT mean, it does not mean ALL Christ's Church were previously 'raptured' to Heaven. It means ONLY those saints that have died are those He 'brings' with Him at His return, the rest of His Church remains still on earth.

The Pre-Trib Rapture doctrines of men instead claim the whole Church is raptured to Heaven prior to the tribulation, and the whole Church then returns WITH Jesus after... the tribulation. And they strongly... rely on Paul's "caught up" idea in 1 Thess.4. But strange... how they totally... leave out what Paul said in that 1 Thess.4:14 about ONLY the asleep saints returning with Jesus!

Now if you don't really care... that they are telling lies to you, and you still want to believe them instead of God's Word as written, then you have every right to be wrong and deceived if that's what you want. Go to.



16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....This is the start of the event we call the rapture. Posttribbers call it the "second coming." They are right for this will be the second time He comes, and Paul CALLS it a coming. Jesus decends, and shouts, and a trumpet sounds. The dead in christ rise first, but a split second later, those of us alive and in Christ rise. THIS is the "gathering."
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

Anyone else here besides iamlamad that wants to just SKIP over Paul's 1 Thess.4:13-15 verses, and go directly to the 16-17 verses?

1Thes 4:13-15
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
(KJV)

The asleep saints that have died return with Jesus, Paul says Jesus will bring them with Him.

He also said that we which are alive and remain until Christ's coming shall not prevent ("precede" per the Greek) those which are asleep (that have died). That means they are in Heaven with Christ prior to us who remain alive on earth unto His coming. It's really easy.

The 1 Thess.4:16-17 verses are then about our gathering from the earth by Christ when He comes, which is also when... He brings the asleep saints with Him.

What that reveals is the complete opposite of what the Pre-Trib Rapture doctrine teaches.

The Scripture reveals a ONE-TIME coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 24:29-31 shows His angels gather His saints from the heavenly, and then Mark 13:24-27 shows His angels gather His from the earth. It's simple as that.

Ha ha! WOW! That is some explanation. I have a much simpler one: the gathering in Matthew is simply not about Paul's rapture, it is a DIFFERENT gathering. So no fancy explanations needed.

OF COURSE those who have died in Christ come with Him, but NOWHERE, I say again, NOWHERE does God tells us about them being gathering in heaven PRIOR to His descending down. One can imagine anything. But there is simply no scripture that specifies what you are imagining. The rapture event takes place ON EARTH, involving those who are alive. For the dead in Christ it is a resurrection. I still say, Matthew 24 simply does not fit Paul's rapture. In 2 Thes. 2, where Paul mentions "gathering" we must refer back to the only other gathering He has spoken of, 1 thes. There he does not mention any gathering taking place in heaven before Jesus descends; he STARTS this passage with Jesus descending; therefore Paul's gathering is the gathering together of the Dead in Christ as they rise first, then those alive that are changed in millisecond after. These rise up TOGETHER in the air to be with Him. It is a real stretch to make Matthew 24 fit this. There is simply no scripture that proves Matthew 24 is taking about the rapture. it is only a theory and a poor one at that. It does not fit the TIMING of Paul's gathering.

You say the gathering is to take place as Jesus descends on the white horse as seen in Rev. 19, right? You still have not explained how you will attend the marriage and marriage supper in your theory.

lamad

 

[veteran]

Ha ha! WOW! That is some explanation. I have a much simpler one: the gathering in Matthew is simply not about Paul's rapture, it is a DIFFERENT gathering. So no fancy explanations needed.

OF COURSE those who have died in Christ come with Him, but NOWHERE, I say again, NOWHERE does God tells us about them being gathering in heaven PRIOR to His descending down. One can imagine anything. But there is simply no scripture that specifies what you are imagining. The rapture event takes place ON EARTH, involving those who are alive. For the dead in Christ it is a resurrection. I still say, Matthew 24 simply does not fit Paul's rapture. In 2 Thes. 2, where Paul mentions "gathering" we must refer back to the only other gathering He has spoken of, 1 thes. There he does not mention any gathering taking place in heaven before Jesus descends; he STARTS this passage with Jesus descending; therefore Paul's gathering is the gathering together of the Dead in Christ as they rise first, then those alive that are changed in millisecond after. These rise up TOGETHER in the air to be with Him. It is a real stretch to make Matthew 24 fit this. There is simply no scripture that proves Matthew 24 is taking about the rapture. it is only a theory and a poor one at that. It does not fit the TIMING of Paul's gathering.

You say the gathering is to take place as Jesus descends on the white horse as seen in Rev. 19, right? You still have not explained how you will attend the marriage and marriage supper in your theory.

lamad

The false idea that those gathered per the Matthew and Mark Scripture is not... Christ's Church, is... a doctrine the Pre-Trib seminaries have cooked up to try and push their false Pre-Trib Rapture theory. They also cook up wedding feast symbololgy to try and do the same.

The Bride per Christ's Book of Revelation...


Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
(KJV)

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
(KJV)

 

[iamlamad]

The false idea that those gathered per the Matthew and Mark Scripture is not... Christ's Church, is... a doctrine the Pre-Trib seminaries have cooked up to try and push their false Pre-Trib Rapture theory. They also cook up wedding feast symbololgy to try and do the same.

The Bride per Christ's Book of Revelation...

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
(KJV)

Rev 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
(KJV)

Ha ha! So you are saying Christ is going to marry a CITY? I rather think the meaning is the people IN the city.



Revelation 19

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Does a city "say" or do people "say?"

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

More PEOPLE talking, not a city talking.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Saints, not city. A city does not wear fine linen. A city does not do righteous acts.

And you STILL have not shown us HOW you will attend this wedding. IT will take place IN HEAVEN before you ever get there.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Ha ha! So you are saying Christ is going to marry a CITY? I rather think the meaning is the people IN the city.

Revelation 19
19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Does a city "say" or do people "say?"

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

More PEOPLE talking, not a city talking.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Saints, not city. A city does not wear fine linen. A city does not do righteous acts.

And you STILL have not shown us HOW you will attend this wedding. IT will take place IN HEAVEN before you ever get there.

Lamad

You know, I wouldn't MOCK our Heavenly Father and His Christ if I were you. Afterall, HE is WHO said that to Apostle John, not me.

Clearly, you haven't read Ezekiel 16 either of how God said He married Jerusalem.

You're mind is almost as screwed up as Justin's.

 

[iamlamad]

You know, I wouldn't MOCK our Heavenly Father and His Christ if I were you. Afterall, HE is WHO said that to Apostle John, not me.

Clearly, you haven't read Ezekiel 16 either of how God said He married Jerusalem.

You're mind is almost as screwed up as Justin's.

Perhaps you need to read Jeremiah 3:8.
Perhaps you need to read Romans 7 again.
Jesus DIED. He is free to marry again.

Lamad

 

[veteran]

Perhaps you need to read Jeremiah 3:8.
Perhaps you need to read Romans 7 again.
Jesus DIED. He is free to marry again.

Lamad

What did God teach in Ezekiel 16?

 

[Dan57]

The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....This is the start of the event we call the rapture. Posttribbers call it the "second coming." They are right for this will be the second time He comes, and Paul CALLS it a coming. Jesus decends, and shouts, and a trumpet sounds. The dead in christ rise first, but a split second later, those of us alive and in Christ rise. THIS is the "gathering."
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them"

We at that time meet Jesus in the air. What did Paul say? "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him." It is at this moment we are gathered together in the air: both the dead in Christ and the LIVE in Christ together at one time and one place.

It seems to me that Paul made it very clear with what he reiterated in his second letter to the Thessalonians;

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God....verse 8; And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 & 8).

Doesn't this say that the Lord's return will not occur until the son of perdition (Satan) is revealed and is sitting in the temple pretending to be God? It seems evident that Paul is clarifying that Christ's return will not precede the tribulation.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:52-53).

So even if its unclear to some Christians, I think we can all agree that his Election will be transformed from flesh into spirit at his coming. No rapture has occurred and no 7th trump has sounded as long as we're in the flesh.

 

[iamlamad]

It seems to me that Paul made it very clear with what he reiterated in his second letter to the Thessalonians;

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God....verse 8; And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 & 8).

Doesn't this say that the Lord's return will not occur until the son of perdition (Satan) is revealed and is sitting in the temple pretending to be God? It seems evident that Paul is clarifying that Christ's return will not precede the tribulation.

"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Corinthians 15:52-53).

So even if its unclear to some Christians, I think we can all agree that his Election will be transformed from flesh into spirit at his coming. No rapture has occurred and no 7th trump has sounded as long as we're in the flesh.

No, Paul's ;last trump is NOT the 7th trumpet. that is myth. The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week, and Paul's rapture comes before the week.

No, 2 thes. 2 does not say what you think it is saying. If we follow the context, especially verses 6-8. there can be no doubt,. the apostasia can ONLY mean whatever is taken out of the way so that the man of sin can be revealed. If you notice in Paul's argument, he IS REVEALED in 3B. Therefore, the restrainer MUST have been removed. Again, this has to be what Paul meant ny the word apostasia. And the theme of the gathering MUST be answered.

The truth behind verse three is that the rapture or departure of the restrainer is taken out of the way and the man of sin IS revealed. What then comes FIRST? The departure comes FIRST and THEN the man of sin can be revealed.

This way the theme of the gathering is taught.

His argument is that when you see the abomination, then you can KNOW the Day of the Lord (not His coming) has arrived and you are IN it. You see, they thought they were IN the Day of the Lord. However, before the man of sin can be revealed, the departure has to come FIRST.

The truth is, this is teaching pretrib just like 1 Thes. 4 & 5 teaches pretrib.

So even if its unclear to some Christians, I think we can all agree that his Election will be transformed from flesh into spirit at his coming. No rapture has occurred and no 7th trump has sounded as long as we're in the flesh.

It is true, 1 thes. does call His coming to the air a COMING. And again, it is NOT at the 7th trumpet, it is at the "last trump."

Lamad

 

[Dan57]

No, Paul's ;last trump is NOT the 7th trumpet. that is myth. The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week, and Paul's rapture comes before the week.

No, 2 thes. 2 does not say what you think it is saying. If we follow the context, especially verses 6-8. there can be no doubt,. the apostasia can ONLY mean whatever is taken out of the way so that the man of sin can be revealed. If you notice in Paul's argument, he IS REVEALED in 3B. Therefore, the restrainer MUST have been removed. Again, this has to be what Paul meant ny the word apostasia. And the theme of the gathering MUST be answered.

The truth behind verse three is that the rapture or departure of the restrainer is taken out of the way and the man of sin IS revealed. What then comes FIRST? The departure comes FIRST and THEN the man of sin can be revealed.

This way the theme of the gathering is taught.

His argument is that when you see the abomination, then you can KNOW the Day of the Lord (not His coming) has arrived and you are IN it. You see, they thought they were IN the Day of the Lord. However, before the man of sin can be revealed, the departure has to come FIRST.

The truth is, this is teaching pretrib just like 1 Thes. 4 & 5 teaches pretrib.

So even if its unclear to some Christians, I think we can all agree that his Election will be transformed from flesh into spirit at his coming. No rapture has occurred and no 7th trump has sounded as long as we're in the flesh.

It is true, 1 thes. does call His coming to the air a COMING. And again, it is NOT at the 7th trumpet, it is at the "last trump."

Lamad

Well, I think your reading more into it than what's there, and interpreting it to say what you want it to say. The order of things are simple, it all happens at once. Unless there's an eight trump, the seventh trump has got to be the last one. It's when "you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not" that is when the last (7th) trump sounds, and that's when Christ comes in judgement. Let me ask you this, in Mark 13:20, Jesus said that he would shorten those days of tribulation for the elect's sake, so if a pre-tribulation rapture had already occurred, what are God's election doing on earth? Imo, all the warnings are precisely because Christians will experience those last days, Paul and Jesus were giving us a heads-up on what to expect so that we wouldn't be fooled or confused. If we are all secretly raptured before any of it happens, what's the purpose of the warnings in Mark 13, Luke 21, and Matthew 24? No where does Jesus suggest an early departure, he tells Christians to "look up...for redemption draweth nigh" when you see these things happen (Luke 21:28).

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to be raptured out of here instead of living through that mess, but unfortunately God has chosen to let us experience it and earn our stripes