Forgiveness

[Elle]

Hello Brethren,
I need some guidance due to something I thought I understood, came to see I was wrong about, and came full circle back to what I originally believed. Here are the things I believe I understand.

1)Yeshua gave his life for the whole world so that his blood would cover our sins upon repentance. True or False? I say true.

2)God does not wish any of us to perish and instructs us to choose life over death. True or False? I say true.

3)Just because Yeshua sacrificed himself for the whole world, does not mean the whole world will be saved. True or False? I say true.

4)God cannot forgive us our sins until we come to the realization that we are sinners and ask for forgiveness. True or False? I say true.

5)If we have to asks God for forgiveness, does it stand to reason that the person who transgressed against us must do likewise?

6)Or is God calling us to a higher standard than He allows for Himself?

7)Yeshua instructed us in a 3 part process concerning those within the church, to first correct the transgressor and upon repentance, we are to forgive and reconcile the relationship. If not, we are to consider the transgressor as a heathen and a publican, otherwise an outsider or sinner. However if that person later has a change of heart, we are to bring them back into the fold. True or False? I say true.

8)All the instructions for forgiveness involve those inside the church, never outside. True or False? I say true, but may be wrong.

9)If #8 is true, where are the passages concerning forgiving those outside the church?

10)All those who were healed by Yeshua sought him out and were healed. I take this to mean an admission of sins on their part of which Yeshua gladly healed them. True or False? I say true, but in all honesty I cannot recall every single encounter so it may be false.

11) Mark 11:24-26 is what is tripping me up and has me going back to my first conclusion. Mark's gospel says: Therefore I say unto you, What things soever you desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." Does this mean we are to forgive everyone that has never sought out our forgiveness or does it mean that someone has sought out our forgiveness, but we refused to give them of that which they sought, like the unjust steward who would not forgive his fellowservant (believer)?

12)If we are to treat unrepentant church members as outsiders, does that mean we still forgive them despite them now being cast outside the fold, or do we only forgive them upon their asking for forgiveness and repentance?

I hate to think that I am playing God one way or the other. I keep coming back to my not having to forgive them unless they ask. As I explained in a post that was also about forgiveness, what happens if I go up to someone outside the church and say "I forgive you." They may become infuriated and say "Forgive me for what? What did I do? Who are you to judge me?" If they are not inside the church, they may not see what they did as wrong and are not convinced of their sin. I can't use the Bible on a non-believer to show them where they transgressed against me if they don't believe in God in the first place. Granted, most people, even outsiders who do not believe in God consciously live by the 5-10th commandments and may seek out forgiveness of which I would gladly oblige them. The problem lies in the ones who do not believe in such a concept as sin. Do I forgive them regardless of whether or not they ask or not forgive them? If God does not want me to forgive outsiders, than I don't want to go against Him, but if he does want me to forgive outsiders where exactly does it say that? I know many of you might point to what Yeshua said upon the cross, but I have to discard that because it is a spurious passage never found in the oldest manuscripts. Thanks for reading and any light you may be able to shed regarding this matter.

 

[rand]

1, not quite
2, True
3, True
4, False. All sin has been forgiven, not just ours but the whole world's. If a person doesn't not accept Jesus' payment for their sins, then they are responsible for covering their own. This is rejecting the Holy Spirit for unbelief which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
5, All Sin is forgiven (see 4 above). Jesus said to forgive not 7 times, but 70 times 7 times. The point is to not take offense in the first place. When someone offends us, it eats away at us, not them. Most of the time they don't even realize we were offended by them. If we know we offend someone (Even God) then we should repent, ask for forgiveness not only to get that off of our conscience but so it doesn't build in theirs. we honor them by acknowleging we offended them and asking for their forgiveness.
6, see 5 above
7. True, if the transgessor is not interested in being forgiven, then let the enemy have them until they are tired of him and his dealings. Hopefully they will see the light and know it's better.
8, False, unforgiveness hurts the one not forgiving. If it's them not forgiven us, then they have the problem and that's why we should pray for our enemies,
9, If you believe that all sin has been forgiven, Who are we to hold unforgiveness against anyone. He forgave us such a huge dept, and we hold someone accountable to us for something so small? That seems like wickedness just like the two servants one forgiven by the King but he didn't forgive the small debt owed him by the other servant who he had thrown into prison.
10, True? They knew they needed physical healing and because He could do this just like the prophet Isaiah said he would do, they knew He had the power to forgive them of their sins also. He did forgive them, he helf no sin against anyone except those under the law and trying to push that on everyone else.
11, you ask a lot of questions, This one, i'm still working on, and I'm getting a little at a time from the Father--it's much deeper than what I can posibly explain but it has something to do with the fact that all sin has been forgiven. If we hold someone accountable for some small thing they owe us then we are the ones who have unforgivness and the ones who have the problem. It's like a little bit of that suffering that Jesus did for that particular offense is now placed on us until we forgive. It could be a sickness, or a pain or whatever, but it's a prison. He did not tell us that we would go to Hell for the unforgivness, He said we would be put in a prison or bondage. I personaly have been released from a lot of bondages just because I was willing and ready to face the offenses I held against others and truly forgive them.
12, Again, the point is to not be offended in the first place. Love them, always forgive them, If they want to live in sin, then let them. There will come a time when they will want again what they had in Christ--if in fact they were ever in Christ. Otherwise they will not know what they are missing. But when they come back, we should not be like the prdigal son's brother who took offense. We should be like the Father and the servant who got them the ring and the sandles and the robe.


Forgiveness is not a question of whether or not the one needing forgiveness deserves it or not, we forgive because we are forgiven. Jesus healed all ten with leprosy, but only one came back to thank Him. Were not all cleansed? The woman caught it the very act, never once asked for forgiveness, but she got it from Jesus--she wasn't in the Church. Zach was never given any law but only grace and that little bit of grace he got from Jesus caused him to repent and give everything and more back. He repented and never asked for forgiveness--he just had a change of heart becuase Jesus didn't condemn him.

Just never let offense settle in our hearts, then we will be more Christ like.

 

[Elle]

Hi Rand,
Thank you for your reply and if you don't mind clarifying for me a few things:

OK here we go:
I said:
1)Yeshua gave his life for the whole world so that his blood would cover our sins upon repentance. True or False? I say true.
You said:
1, not quite
Would you have stated true if I had tied #3 (which was "Just because Yeshua sacrificed himself for the whole world, does not mean the whole world will be saved. True or False? I say true.") with #1? Then would you say we both agree that he was sacrificed for the whole world, but only for those who sought for forgiveness. I can only assume "yes" because you answered 3 as true, but I don't want to put thought into your head that are not yours.

"2, True"
We agree.

"3, True"
We agree.

"4, False. All sin has been forgiven, not just ours but the whole world's."
I agree with this, refer to #1.

"If a person doesn't not accept Jesus' payment for their sins, then they are responsible for covering their own."
How does a person cover their own?

"This is rejecting the Holy Spirit for unbelief which is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."
OK, we agree on this point.

"5, All Sin is forgiven (see 4 above)."
Of which we agree.

"Jesus said to forgive not 7 times, but 70 times 7 times. The point is to not take offense in the first place. When someone offends us, it eats away at us, not them. Most of the time they don't even realize we were offended by them. If we know we offend someone (Even God) then we should repent, ask for forgiveness not only to get that off of our conscience but so it doesn't build in theirs. we honor them by acknowleging we offended them and asking for their forgiveness."
I agree with the 70x7 forgiveness. In this passage, in regards to the 70x7, it refers also to your brother which is someone inside the church. Peter asks how many times should I forgive my brother. I have no problem forgiving my fellow brother, it is those outside the church I am stumbling upon as to whether we should forgive if they do not ask. Read the last paragraph in my original post above for further elaboration.

"6, see 5 above'
Likewise.

7. True, if the transgessor is not interested in being forgiven, then let the enemy have them until they are tired of him and his dealings. Hopefully they will see the light and know it's better.
Again we agree, but this refers to our brother.

I'm going to tie you answer to # 8 and 9 together.
"8, False, unforgiveness hurts the one not forgiving. If it's them not forgiven us, then they have the problem and that's why we should pray for our enemies,
9, If you believe that all sin has been forgiven, Who are we to hold unforgiveness against anyone. He forgave us such a huge dept, and we hold someone accountable to us for something so small? That seems like wickedness just like the two servants one forgiven by the King but he didn't forgive the small debt owed him by the other servant who he had thrown into prison."
I'm not sure I quite agree that unforgiveness can hurt the one not forgiving. I'll explain what I mean at the very end of my post. Yeshua stated, however, that our enemies are those within our own household, meaning within the church, not necessarily our immediate family. So I agree that we should pray for them, bless them and do good for them, but again these are our brethren who have gone astray who have not sought out forgiveness nor have returned to the fold yet. Upon their repentance, we are to forgive. It never says we are to forgive before that step has been taken. I do agree that all sin has been forgiven, but we have to seek out forgiveness by asking God to forgive us. This is wherein my concern lies. If we must ask God for forgiveness, do not those who offend us must do likewise? I agree that it would be wickedness not to forgive someone when God has forgiven us such a huge debt, but we had to ask for that forgiveness. God indeed has forgiven us our sin, but not before repentance. The steward was thrown into prison because he would not forgive his fellowservant when his fellowsevant asked for forgiveness, not before.

"10, True? They knew they needed physical healing and because He could do this just like the prophet Isaiah said he would do, they knew He had the power to forgive them of their sins also. He did forgive them, he helf no sin against anyone except those under the law and trying to push that on everyone else."
So then are you agreeing with me that they admitted their sin by coming to him in faith? They were owning up to their sins and asked for forgiveness by showing faith. Again I do not want to put thoughts in your mind that are not yours.

11, you ask a lot of questions,
I know, just trying to be thorough and I think I just inundated you with several more.

'This one, i'm still working on, and I'm getting a little at a time from the Father--it's much deeper than what I can posibly explain but it has something to do with the fact that all sin has been forgiven. If we hold someone accountable for some small thing they owe us then we are the ones who have unforgivness and the ones who have the problem. It's like a little bit of that suffering that Jesus did for that particular offense is now placed on us until we forgive. It could be a sickness, or a pain or whatever, but it's a prison. He did not tell us that we would go to Hell for the unforgivness, He said we would be put in a prison or bondage. I personaly have been released from a lot of bondages just because I was willing and ready to face the offenses I held against others and truly forgive them."
And in this passage is where I am having the most difficulty by not knowing if it refers to people inside the church who have sought our forgiveness that we refuse to forgive. Or if it means to forgive everyone regardless of whether or not they ask for it.

"12, Again, the point is to not be offended in the first place. Love them, always forgive them, If they want to live in sin, then let them. There will come a time when they will want again what they had in Christ--if in fact they were ever in Christ. Otherwise they will not know what they are missing. But when they come back, we should not be like the prdigal son's brother who took offense. We should be like the Father and the servant who got them the ring and the sandles and the robe."
Only problem is, the prodigal son sought out forgiveness, it wasn't just handed to him. I would definitely welcome and forgive a brother back into the fold if they repented. But I have no right to do that before they have repented.


"Forgiveness is not a question of whether or not the one needing forgiveness deserves it or not, we forgive because we are forgiven. Jesus healed all ten with leprosy, but only one came back to thank Him. Were not all cleansed?"
Yes, he did cleanse all 10 and only one gave thanks, but I'm not sure I can tie unthankfulness to forgiveness. Meaning they sought out forgiveness and upon repentance, Yeshua extended to them a cleansing, but then they went back to the way they were before.

"The woman caught it the very act, never once asked for forgiveness, but she got it from Jesus--she wasn't in the Church. Zach was never given any law but only grace and that little bit of grace he got from Jesus caused him to repent and give everything and more back. He repented and never asked for forgiveness--he just had a change of heart becuase Jesus didn't condemn him."
Please do not be offended, but the woman caught in adultery is a spurious story that was also never in the oldest manuscripts. So I have to reject it as truth.

"Just never let offense settle in our hearts, then we will be more Christ like."
True!

I promised you an explanation when I said "I'm not sure i quite agree that unforgiveness can hurt the one not forgiving." I typed it out and it is very long, so i will not post it here. If you would like to read it, I'll send it to you instead. I saved it to a folder.

 

[rand]

Okay,
On number 1, I look at repentance differently than most people do. Repentance simply means to change your mind--the way you think. This is not required for forgiveness, it's required for dieing to sin. that's a whole other topic, though., otherwise, I do agree.

On number 4, how does a person cover their own sin? They can't. their only option is Hell. they had their chance.

8 and 9 together. I think of it this way. A father of an infant child, loves that child unconditionally. If that infant does something wrong (sin) the father does not need the child to ask for forgiveness before he forgives them, the child doesn't even need to be sorry to be foregiven by the dad. The dad, forgives because it is in him to do so, not because the child deserves it or even wants it. When my wife has a bad day and takes it out on me. I forgive her before she says she is sorry. I know something is bothering her, because this is not her nature. I will not be offended by this. I personally refuse to let any of that offense get inside of me and stay there. It is one of the crafty ways of the enemy to get us to agree with him. My wife knows she can come to me for forgiveness, and I always tell the same thing, 'I have already forgiven you.'

10, yes i am agreeing with you. They knew they needed forgiveness, and He said He could give them that. He also said if I don't do the works of my Father then don't believe me. Wich is easier to say you sins are forgiven or to stand up and walk? To say your sins are forgiven is much easier because there is no physical proof required, but to say stand up and walk will have proof, but then He said so that you know I have authority to forgive sins, here's your proof--stand up and walk.

in this they learned something about God that being under the law never taught them--He really cares for them and loves them. Not as a group, but as individuals. They experienced His grace and were hungry for more of it--the crowds grew and grew everywhere that He went. So, this forgiveness of sins without sacrafice is all new to them. In fact, how can Jesus justly forgive sins without His sacrafice? It was already in His heart to forgive, the sacrafice paid the debt owed to the Father because of that sin. That's the atonement.

11, can you know what's in a person's heart? Why they do what they do? Do you want to determine if they are really sorry or not or if they are truly in the body of Christ or not? Maybe they will not come to ask forgiveness because of shame but did confess to the Father and ask Him to forgive. Maybe their shame keeps them avoiding you or the church. We can judge what a person does, but we are never to judge why they did what they did because we can never know the depts of their heart like the Father does. So, I would say to forgive uncontionally, this will never hurt you.

12, yes but the brother is the one with unforgiveness in his heart. The father tryed to get him excited about the brother who repented and came back, but the brother was not interested. The father said, all I have is yours, you never got the calf because you never asked. The Father just wanted him (the brother) to rejoyce with him, he never ask him (the brother) to forgive his brother, just rejoyce. But if he did rejoyce with the father, wouldn't that mean he held no unforgiveness in his heart? Maybe.

Okay, I don't know enough about the older manuscripts to call it one way or the other, but what about the woman who wiped Jesus' feet with her tears? Some believe it's the same woman--I don't know. The point is, this is what grace will do to a person, it causes repentance. Look at peter when Jesus asked him how his catch was that morning. peter said not so great, Jesus told him to try again, he did, and caught so much they could barely hold them all. Then Peter said, Lord leave me, for I am a sinful man. See, grace (forgiveness) came first, then Peter had repentance busrting out of his heart. Then, without Peter even asking for forgiveness, Jesus said come an I make you a fisher of men. I really love that story. We know from the rest of NT that Peter did follow Christ radically all because of the grace he got in the beginning.

I would like to read your thought on unforgiveness not hurting the unforgiving person. I'm kinda new here, is there a place you would send it to? Do I have to set up a mailbox on this site, first or is that automatic when I joined?

 

[Elle]

Hi again Rand,
I do believe God has shown me the light. It concerns Acts 7:60, right after Stephen asked Yeshua to receive his spirit. It says: "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep." I've been researching this topic for most of the day and here is what I've come to understand. Stephen is asking the Lord not to lay this sin to their charge, that he forgives them. However, if those who killed Stephen never come to repent of this deed by asking God for forgiveness, then God will hold them accountable. So even though the spurious passage that concerns Yeshua saying something similar in regards to his offenders, we know they were never repentant because God destroyed them and Jerusalem in 70 AD. So yes, we do forgive, but to be released from that sin (which we cannot do because we are not God) they must ask God.

Okay,
On number 1, I look at repentance differently than most people do. Repentance simply means to change your mind--the way you think. This is not required for forgiveness, it's required for dieing to sin. that's a whole other topic, though., otherwise, I do agree.
I do have to disagree (and again, not trying to change your mind) with you when say "it (repentance) is not required for forgiveness". Repentance actually is required for forgiveness based on what is said in Matthew 18:15-18 which says:

Step 1:
[sup]15 [/sup]Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Here we see a brother telling his fellow brother his fault, if he hears, we have gained our brother, if not proceed to step 2.

Step 2:
[sup]16 [/sup]But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
If he won't admit his trespass, we now find 2 or 3 witnesses to listen to the offense and help in the correction, if he still won't hear, proceed to step 3.

Step 3:
[sup]17 [/sup]And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
If he still refuses to hear, we take it to the church. If he refuses to hear the church, we have nothing to do with him.

[sup]18 [/sup]Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Then Yeshua says that those offenses, where a person has not repented, are bound on earth as they are in heaven and when loosed on earth, loosed in heaven. This requires the person to have a change of heart, when they seek out forgiveness, whether through the one they offended or God Himself, they will be released. This is what Stephen did for those who killed him. By his forgiving, he cleared the way for them to be forgiven by God when they finally repented. Stephen never received their repentance personally, but God would know if they repented after the fact.

"On number 4, how does a person cover their own sin? They can't. their only option is Hell. they had their chance."
OK, wasn't quite sure what you meant earlier, but I agree with this.


"8 and 9 together. I think of it this way. A father of an infant child, loves that child unconditionally. If that infant does something wrong (sin) the father does not need the child to ask for forgiveness before he forgives them, the child doesn't even need to be sorry to be foregiven by the dad. The dad, forgives because it is in him to do so, not because the child deserves it or even wants it. When my wife has a bad day and takes it out on me. I forgive her before she says she is sorry. I know something is bothering her, because this is not her nature. I will not be offended by this. I personally refuse to let any of that offense get inside of me and stay there. It is one of the crafty ways of the enemy to get us to agree with him. My wife knows she can come to me for forgiveness, and I always tell the same thing, 'I have already forgiven you."
Yes, I agree now that I understand the situation with Stephen.

"10, yes i am agreeing with you. They knew they needed forgiveness, and He said He could give them that. He also said if I don't do the works of my Father then don't believe me. Wich is easier to say you sins are forgiven or to stand up and walk? To say your sins are forgiven is much easier because there is no physical proof required, but to say stand up and walk will have proof, but then He said so that you know I have authority to forgive sins, here's your proof--stand up and walk.

in this they learned something about God that being under the law never taught them--He really cares for them and loves them. Not as a group, but as individuals. They experienced His grace and were hungry for more of it--the crowds grew and grew everywhere that He went. So, this forgiveness of sins without sacrafice is all new to them. In fact, how can Jesus justly forgive sins without His sacrafice? It was already in His heart to forgive, the sacrafice paid the debt owed to the Father because of that sin. That's the atonement."
Thanks, you actually revealed the meaning to this scripture I've pondered for some time, always wondered what Yeshua meant by that, now I know.

"11, can you know what's in a person's heart? Why they do what they do? Do you want to determine if they are really sorry or not or if they are truly in the body of Christ or not? Maybe they will not come to ask forgiveness because of shame but did confess to the Father and ask Him to forgive. Maybe their shame keeps them avoiding you or the church. We can judge what a person does, but we are never to judge why they did what they did because we can never know the depts of their heart like the Father does. So, I would say to forgive uncontionally, this will never hurt you."
Again agreed.

"12, yes but the brother is the one with unforgiveness in his heart. The father tryed to get him excited about the brother who repented and came back, but the brother was not interested. The father said, all I have is yours, you never got the calf because you never asked. The Father just wanted him (the brother) to rejoyce with him, he never ask him (the brother) to forgive his brother, just rejoyce. But if he did rejoyce with the father, wouldn't that mean he held no unforgiveness in his heart? Maybe."
Thanks for a different perspective and I would think that would be the case.

"Okay, I don't know enough about the older manuscripts to call it one way or the other, but what about the woman who wiped Jesus' feet with her tears? Some believe it's the same woman--I don't know. The point is, this is what grace will do to a person, it causes repentance. Look at peter when Jesus asked him how his catch was that morning. peter said not so great, Jesus told him to try again, he did, and caught so much they could barely hold them all. Then Peter said, Lord leave me, for I am a sinful man. See, grace (forgiveness) came first, then Peter had repentance busrting out of his heart. Then, without Peter even asking for forgiveness, Jesus said come an I make you a fisher of men. I really love that story. We know from the rest of NT that Peter did follow Christ radically all because of the grace he got in the beginning."
It was the Catholic Church who decided that the the woman caught in adultery and the woman who who wiped Yeshua's feet was Mary Magdalene, which they later corrected. There was no proof that Mary M. was an adulteress or the woman who wiped Yeshua's feet. Here is a link, if interested, with all the spurious passages found in the NT, some of them are minor, but some change the whole understanding of the NT and cause many to stumble.
http://godstoolsforu...rious-passages/

"I would like to read your thought on unforgiveness not hurting the unforgiving person. I'm kinda new here, is there a place you would send it to? Do I have to set up a mailbox on this site, first or is that automatic when I joined?"
Fortunately, since I realized my error, it won't be necessary. I now know that my forgiveness now, will release them of their sin at some future point in time should they ever seek me while alive or God, should I die before that time. I'm fairly new myself, so welcome aboard. As for sending messages, if you click on my avatar it will take you to my profile. In the upper right there will be 3 light grey boxes, one of them says "Send me a message" if you ever need to send someone a message. To receive messages sent to you, click on your name in upper right and you will see a list of different functions. Personal messenger is what you would click on to see if you have received any messages.

I would just like to say thank you for helping me through this, I now have the understanding I need to continue my walk. May God bless you Rand!

 

[Risen Angel]

Forgive all. Follow Jesus Christ; stop playing games with Satan.

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15)

This is a promise. I understand it as a command. Forgive who? ALL. Why? Because he did.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34)

Jesus is praying for the people who have just nailed him to a cross. He is asking God to forgive them. Does it look like he was waiting for them to repent!? Did he need to write them a letter? Did he worry about the politically correct way to carry out the divine act of forgiveness? DID HE WAIT TO EXTEND GRACE TO THOSE WHO MURDERED HIM!!!!!!!!?????????

Stop playing word games. You write pages on how to justify your own sin. And, his name is Jesus; try calling it out sometime.

 

[williemac]

Forgive all. Follow Jesus Christ; stop playing games with Satan.

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15)

This is a promise. I understand it as a command. Forgive who? ALL. Why? Because he did.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34)

Jesus is praying for the people who have just nailed him to a cross. He is asking God to forgive them. Does it look like he was waiting for them to repent!? Did he need to write them a letter? Did he worry about the politically correct way to carry out the divine act of forgiveness? DID HE WAIT TO EXTEND GRACE TO THOSE WHO MURDERED HIM!!!!!!!!?????????

Stop playing word games. You write pages on how to justify your own sin. And, his name is Jesus; try calling it out sometime.

And to this I would reply: Can one climb into another's head and pinpoint their motives? Can one go on the internet and know for sure who they are talking to and what their walk is like?
BTW, Math.6:15 was true at the time it was stated. In the meantime, Jesus took care of our sin and thus forgave all. Now, as Paul urged both the Eph. and Col. church, forgiving others as God in Christ has also forgiven you (Eph.4:32) The order has changed. The motive for forgiving has also changed. We love Him because He has first loved us, not the other way around... ( ie.to get His love.) The old way was never possible for man.

 

[Elle]

Hi Risen Angel,
You said:
"Forgive all. Follow Jesus Christ; stop playing games with Satan.

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15)

This is a promise. I understand it as a command. Forgive who? ALL. Why? Because he did.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34)

Jesus is praying for the people who have just nailed him to a cross. He is asking God to forgive them. Does it look like he was waiting for them to repent!? Did he need to write them a letter? Did he worry about the politically correct way to carry out the divine act of forgiveness? DID HE WAIT TO EXTEND GRACE TO THOSE WHO MURDERED HIM!!!!!!!!?????????

Stop playing word games. You write pages on how to justify your own sin. And, his name is Jesus; try calling it out sometime."

I think if you go back and read, you will see I concluded with that understanding. Please get off your high horse. I was NEVER trying to justify my own sin. I was trying to understand how forgiveness works according to scripture. I concluded with that we are to forgive no matter what. Just like Stephen did. When we do this, the offer of forgiveness is on the table should our offender ever seek God for the transgression they committed against us. If they never seek forgiveness, then their sins are retained. Not by me, but by God. Only He can forgive sins.

This is what I said in my conclusion back in the start of post #5:

"I do believe God has shown me the light. It concerns Acts 7:60, right after Stephen asked Yeshua to receive his spirit. It says: "And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep." I've been researching this topic for most of the day and here is what I've come to understand. Stephen is asking the Lord not to lay this sin to their charge, that he forgives them. However, if those who killed Stephen never come to repent of this deed by asking God for forgiveness, then God will hold them accountable. So even though the spurious passage that concerns Yeshua saying something similar in regards to his offenders, we know they were never repentant because God destroyed them and Jerusalem in 70 AD. So yes, we do forgive, but to be released from that sin (which we cannot do because we are not God) they must ask God. "

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[Risen Angel]

You deceive yourself. How is it that you don't understand how forgiveness works, yet claim to be a Christian? The basic tenet of the Christian doctrine is forgiveness; before all else, this is it. The only repentance that you need to concern yourself with is your own. All I see here is a whole lot of words that give you a reason not to forgive.... this is what I think you are looking for: a reason why someone should be excluded from your forgiveness, or God's.

Are you looking for a game played by your own rules? You will not find it with me, or my master.

Hey, Other Person who thinks the scriptures are no longer relevant, give your head a shake! You think you don't have to listen to Christ's own words? Where are you coming from? You trust Paul's words over Christ's... where are your priorities? Paul was a man; Jesus is God. You know what, go ahead and think what you want... maybe your motive has changed - mine has not.

So you would have me not respond to anything online, just blindly walking and believing everything people write? You would have me stand by and write nothing while people walk around in the dark? You believe in the trinity but can't fathom that I may see what you do not?

"And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?" (Matthew 9:4)

God knows everything, and I know God... do the math, Tiger.

Oh, and here... I'll serve this one up for your perusal.

"The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble." (Proverbs 4:19)

They may not know at what they stumble, but some of us are over here watching from a distance and shaking our heads. Sometimes we are screaming at you to open your eyes, and wake up... but you hear nothing because you are deaf. Peace.

 

[Elle]

Hi Risen Angel,

I am not going to sit here and debate about what you think I am thinking.

Lets see how you will justify your sins of falsely accusing me of what you think i am thinking.

You have a nice day and may God bless you.

 

[wayseer]

As I explained in a post that was also about forgiveness, what happens if I go up to someone outside the church and say "I forgive you." They may become infuriated and say "Forgive me for what? What did I do? Who are you to judge me?" If they are not inside the church, they may not see what they did as wrong and are not convinced of their sin. I can't use the Bible on a non-believer to show them where they transgressed against me if they don't believe in God in the first place. Granted, most people, even outsiders who do not believe in God consciously live by the 5-10th commandments and may seek out forgiveness of which I would gladly oblige them. The problem lies in the ones who do not believe in such a concept as sin. Do I forgive them regardless of whether or not they ask or not forgive them? If God does not want me to forgive outsiders, than I don't want to go against Him, but if he does want me to forgive outsiders where exactly does it say that? I know many of you might point to what Yeshua said upon the cross, but I have to discard that because it is a spurious passage never found in the oldest manuscripts. Thanks for reading and any light you may be able to shed regarding this matter.

Legalism is not of God.

 

[Elle]

Hi wayseer,

You said:
"Legalism is not of God."

That was my thought process before my final conclusion. It no longer has any bearing on what I now believe. My 3rd post, post #5, bears that out.

 

[Rex]

And know this as well Risen Angel
Proverbs 5:15-18
Can just as easily be a polluted well

Mark 9:42

 

[Strat]

The modern understanding of forgiveness means no consequences,the transgressor is not required to surrender any priviledges,positions or stature or face any consequences for their actions....that is lawlessness not forgiveness and leads to great sin and discord among christians.

 

[daq]

Hi Elle, perhaps a small adjustment to your thinking might be helpful if you will consider for a moment that you yourself are a "house" with your own complete "household" (now a household of God because we are no longer our own when we come to Messiah). And if you are a household then you are likened to an "economy" or a "mini-congregation" all in one household package deal created by the Most High to bring glory unto him through bearing fruit. Your eyes, ears, arms, hands, legs, and feet are all "members" of your household and these are those whom we are commanded to keep watch over, to rightly judge, and to spiritually "feed" like fellow laborers and fellowservants which are now become members of the household of God. These members of your house have now been placed under your care while the House Master himself is "away in a far journey" (Mark 13:34) and you are likewise called the "porter" who watches the doors of the house. Therefore if your right eye offends you, like a nomad wanderer always straying off toward unhealthy visual things which take your heart and mind with him; then pluck him out and cast him from you, for he is likened to an allegorical "enemy entity" and that is not your physical eye itself but more like an "unclean spirit" desiring to take control of your eye. If he gets control over the one eye then he will soon corrupt the other because no man can serve two masters. Likewise if your right hand of power tries to put something to your mouth that you know the Master says we should not drink, as getting drunk with the drunkards, (Matthew 24:49) then cut him off and cast him from you. If your foot is always running swiftly into mischief, (Proverbs 6:16-19) cut him off and cast him from you by the Testimony and the Doctrine of Yeshua. And if one is willing to see these fairly simple and childlike supernal truths then the same can now forgive every human being regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness or not, (so long as his own repentance and self pride from being wronged in the past is dealt with first). In fact the person you forgive does not even need to be told if the situation does not allow for it. In this Way one may love his physical neighbor, physical brother, and even his physical enemies regardless of whether they attend the same congregational building or assembly because those brethren are all outside of your own household ekklesia. Those inside your house you may likewise hold accountable for any actions which offend you and the Master Yeshua. In other words we are to judge ourselves and not the brethren. The enemies of the man shall be those of his own household and the man himself is the house with all its members.

And there was war in the heavens of Elle: Miyka'el Tzemach Tzedek and his messengers fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought, and his messengers . . .

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

The modern understanding of forgiveness means no consequences,the transgressor is not required to surrender any priviledges,positions or stature or face any consequences for their actions....that is lawlessness not forgiveness and leads to great sin and discord among christians.

And the modern understanding of forgiveness is not Biblical. Real penitence and forgiveness requires restitution and an act of penance; a corporal work that returns us back to the path of righteousness. A good example taking from Scripture is when Jesus visits the house of Zacchaeus the tax collector. The contrition Zacchaeus felt was expressed in a promise to give half his goods to the poor and to compensate anyone he defrauded. To this, Jesus proclaims "Salvation has come to this house". Our actions convey the condition of our hearts.