FRED

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justbyfaith

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If he sinned apart from the law he will also perish apart from the law...

There is only forgiveness in Christ; and all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord.

I believe that he will be given an opportunity at his judgment seat to receive his judge as Saviour and Lord if he did not have that opportunity in life.
 
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Truther

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Fred was a north american Indian who lived in the 1300s. Fred was a good ole boy. He help the widows of his tribe. Fred put food on the tables of those who were less fortunate than he. He helped all those who had a need. Seeing Fred lived in the 1300s he never had a chance to know Christ. Never heard of him. There are those who now claim poor Fred is in hell because he never accepted Christ. Where do you think Fred will end up. Hell? Will he attain eternal life at the great white throne resurrection because of his good works toward man?
Fred will be judged according to his works at Rev 20.

I hope his good works outweigh the bad ones.

God is just.
 

justbyfaith

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Fred will be judged according to his works at Rev 20.

I hope his good works outweigh the bad ones.

God is just.
No one will enter in because his good works outweigh his bad.

They will only enter in if their bad deeds have been forgiven.
 
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Truther

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No one will enter in because his good works outweigh his bad.

They will only enter in if their bad deeds have been forgiven.
So, you think all the countless billions that never knew about Jesus but had the Law written in their hearts per Romans 2 and practiced goodness because of it will be sent to hell?

Wouldn't that put Christians in hell for not getting the gospel to every creature?
 

justbyfaith

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So, you think all the countless billions that never knew about Jesus but had the Law written in their hearts per Romans 2 and practiced goodness because of it will be sent to hell?

Wouldn't that put Christians in hell for not getting the gospel to every creature?
1) read what I have said throughout this thread;

and,

2) Genuine Christians are forgiven of every sin through the blood of Christ.
 

Truther

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1) read what I have said throughout this thread;

and,

2) Genuine Christians are forgiven of every sin through the blood of Christ.
So, there are 2 after life judgements.

There is the Judgement seat of Christ per those that are part of the 1st resurrection.

There is a white throne judgement for those that never partook of the 1st resurrection.

It says that the 2nd group(Rev 20) will be judged according to their works, then fails to mention if they all go to hell or just particular folks.

Therefore, the only way to ensure one makes the 1st resurrection is to buy the Acts 2:38 insurance policy.

The rest are risk takers and those that never heard of Jesus Christ and shall be judged by their works...this includes non born again children and babies.

God will be just at the white throne.
 

Randy Kluth

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No one is good but God (Luke 18:19) and the one who has not been regenerated by Christ is not good (Romans 3:12).

Barnabas was good (Acts of the Apostles 11:22-24), not because he was God but because God dwelt in him. The fruit of the Spirit is among other things goodness (Galatians 5:22-23).

So then, we can be good in God; but apart from God, any goodness that can be found in us is on the level of filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). This is the righteousness of the law / conscience.

The righteousness which is of God by faith (Philippians 3:9) is as fine linen, clean and white (Revelation 19:8 (kjv)).

I know we've already had a go-around on this, but it is worth noting how one Early Church Father described it:

Clement of Rome: "Since we are the portion of the Holy one let us practice what belongs to holiness... Let us put on concord, being humble in mind, disciplined, keeping ourselves from gossip and slander, being justified by works, not words..."

Clement immediately succeeded the Apostles, who established the foundational doctrine of the Church. He understood what they meant by what they taught.

Clement also taught Justification by Faith alone, as we understand Protestant Doctrine. He just didn't have the hang up of trying to explain Works and Faith, as they relate to one another. Plainly, living by Faith requires that we display the Works of Faith. We are not justified by the Works of Dead Religion, void of Faith.

Clement: "And we also, have been called in Christ Jesus through his will, are not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety, or our actions done in holiness of heart, but through faith, for it is through faith that Almighty God has justified all men that have been from the beginning of time."

Same guy, but different message, it seems? Actually, the two ideas are perfectly compatible if you understand that justification comes by faith that must produce works. We are, as indicated, justified by the Works of Faith, which originate with Christ and with his redemption.

It is a semantics problem. Christ did the work of redemption alone. But we must both accept it and receive it not just by declaring our faith, and not just by believing without works--rather, our acceptance *requires* works that prove our faith.
 

justbyfaith

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We are justified by works of faith before men; however, before God, who sees what is invisible (1 Samuel 16:7) we are justified by faith alone.

See Romans 4:2. Romans 4:1-8. Titus 3:5 (kjv). Ephesians 2:8-9.
 
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theophilus

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You are SAVED to the kingdom. The 1000yr period of rest. Fred aint goin there. He can attain eternal life by his works at the great white throne

No one can attain eternal life by his works. At the great white throne all will be condemned to the lake of fire. Their works will be judged to determine the degree of their punishment.

God will be just at the white throne.

This will be an expression of pure justice without grace or mercy. That is why all who are at this judgment will be condemned.
 

Truther

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No one can attain eternal life by his works. At the great white throne all will be condemned to the lake of fire. Their works will be judged to determine the degree of their punishment.



This will be an expression of pure justice without grace or mercy. That is why all who are at this judgment will be condemned.
Including aborted babies and billions of little children?
 

theophilus

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Including aborted babies and billions of little children?
Aborted babies and children who die before they have the ability to know right from wrong will not be condemned because they have never sinned. Every person who has had the opportunity to sin has done so. Justice requires that all of the sins be paid for. Only those whose sins have been atoned for by Jesus Christ will avoid being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire.
 

Truther

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Aborted babies and children who die before they have the ability to know right from wrong will not be condemned because they have never sinned. Every person who has had the opportunity to sin has done so. Justice requires that all of the sins be paid for. Only those whose sins have been atoned for by Jesus Christ will avoid being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire.
Will Christians be sent to the lake for failing to get the Gospel into pagan lands the last 2 millenniums?

Only Europeans in general can be saved?
 

Joseph77

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Will Christians be sent to the lake for failing to get the Gospel into pagan lands the last 2 millenniums?

Only Europeans in general can be saved?
Did you EVER read ACTS ?
See how many (ALL) of the nations were represented there ?
 

theophilus

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Will Christians be sent to the lake for failing to get the Gospel into pagan lands the last 2 millenniums?

Only Europeans in general can be saved?
Christians cannot be sent to the lake of fire because their names are written in the book of life. Those who have failed to obey will face a different judgment.

For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 ESV

They will not lose their salvation but they will miss out on the rewards they could have earned if they had been faithful.

When the church began it was made up of Asians, not Europeans.
 

BOWnQUIVER

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No one can attain eternal life by his works.

Lets see what Jesus says about this

MATTHEW 19 [16]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The works these people will be judged by is that portion of the ten commandments that pertain to your interaction with man. Jesus tells us that, so you can take it to the bank. Good news for Fred. The man asked Jesus how he should attain eternal life. Jesus did not mention even one of the ten commandments that deal with your interaction with God. Had Jesus been asked, how shall I be saved to the kingdom? Jesus would have given a totally different answer.
 

Truther

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Christians cannot be sent to the lake of fire because their names are written in the book of life. Those who have failed to obey will face a different judgment.

For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 ESV

They will not lose their salvation but they will miss out on the rewards they could have earned if they had been faithful.

When the church began it was made up of Asians, not Europeans.
What about the servant which hid his talent?
 

DPMartin

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Fred was a north american Indian who lived in the 1300s. Fred was a good ole boy. He help the widows of his tribe. Fred put food on the tables of those who were less fortunate than he. He helped all those who had a need. Seeing Fred lived in the 1300s he never had a chance to know Christ. Never heard of him. There are those who now claim poor Fred is in hell because he never accepted Christ. Where do you think Fred will end up. Hell? Will he attain eternal life at the great white throne resurrection because of his good works toward man?

fred like all other flesh was given life to live that he wasn't entitled to live. he wasn't entitled to be in God's creation to experience living. whether or not he was redeemed by the same power to spend eternity with that same power that provided him means to be, is really a so what.

besides he was a son of Noah, who could find grace in God's sight.
 

justbyfaith

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Lets see what Jesus says about this

MATTHEW 19 [16]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The works these people will be judged by is that portion of the ten commandments that pertain to your interaction with man. Jesus tells us that, so you can take it to the bank. Good news for Fred. The man asked Jesus how he should attain eternal life. Jesus did not mention even one of the ten commandments that deal with your interaction with God. Had Jesus been asked, how shall I be saved to the kingdom? Jesus would have given a totally different answer.
Here, Jesus laid down the law as a schoolmaster to lead the rich young ruler to Christ.

He was not saying that the man could be justified by his works; otherwise He would be contradicting what we know to be true salvation doctrine in the New Testament.

The man was trusting in his works to save him, so, in the passage, Jesus lays down the law to show the man that he is incapable of entering in by what he could do.

In order for the man to be saved, he would in fact have to receive salvation as a gift, after Jesus died on the Cross to provide that gift.

Also, before Jesus died, there was no provision for that gift. So Jesus told the man what he needed to do to be saved apart from that gift being given; which showed the man that he was a sinner in need of a Saviour.

No one can keep the law (Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13, Romans 3:23); so the man, in being told to keep the law, is being told that he cannot enter in, as long as he is trusting in his works to save him.

Only in receiving the gift of salvation might the man actually become able to be obedient in the way that Jesus told him to become obedient. He would need the gift of the Holy Spirit in order to be able to measure up.

But even in this, the man would still need the shed blood of Jesus Christ as the provision by which he might be forgiven of all of his sins. Without this gift, the man might be able to turn over a new leaf but he would still not be saved; because all of his past sins would still have to be judged, having not been forgiven; and thus he would be condemned.
 
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