Free Will and God’s Sovereignty

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Pierac

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That's CALVINISM.
That is "you dont have freewill", so, God has to choose you.

What you just did, was what Calvin did...You defined "foreknowledge" as "predestined".

See, its true that God knows who is going to trust in Christ, just as God knows the Cross is a universal offer ALL = to come and be saved.
He does not choose you to come....>He offers Salvation for you to choose.
See, if you are forced to have faith, then its not faith, as you didnt choose to believe.

"BELIEVING" is how you are chosen, and God knows who will believe.

Here is what you dont understand, NetChaplin, nor did Calvin.

If God chooses you to be saved, then that means that those who are not saved were not Chosen to be so.
And that is NOT THEIR FAULT.
So, God is not JUST, if He wont choose you to believe, and then you end up in Hell for being a Christ Rejector, only because you are not one of the "pre-destined".

So, that GARBAGE Theology, is CALVINISM, and its demonic, its of the devil, and its infectiously deceiving, as that is how the Devil designed it.
I agree.... Calvinism is Garbage... But scripture is clear.... You need to remove Heaven/Hell and replace it with the 1000 year coming Kingdom, in which Jesus will be King... The Elect are not chosen for heaven... but the coming kingdom....

Let's review...

Net Bible Eph 1:11 In Christ28 we too have been claimed as God's own possession,29(G2820) since we were predestined (G4309) according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

29 tn Grk "we were appointed by lot." The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to "appoint a portion by lot" (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant "obtain a portion by lot"). In the passive, as here, the idea is that "we were appointed [as a portion] by lot" (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words "God's own" have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: "In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance." See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

Word study
G2820

κληρόω
klēróō; contracted klērṓ, fut. klērṓsō, from klḗros (G2819), a lot. To cast lots, determine by lot, i.e., to determine something, choose someone. In Eph_1:11, it means, "in whom the lot has fallen upon us also, as foreordained thereto . . . to be" (a.t.). The idea expressed here is that Christians have become heirs of God due to the fact that God predestined them according to His purpose. In a manner of speaking, the "lot" fell to believers not by chance but solely because of the gracious and sovereign decision of God- Almighty to select them to be His heirs.
Deriv.: prosklēróō (G4345), to give or assign by lot.

Now listen to Jesus....

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws(66) (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

66 tn Or "attracts him," or "pulls him." The word is used of pulling or dragging, often by force. It is even used once of magnetic attraction (A. Oepke, TDNT 2:503).

again...

NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

John does not hold back with his recordings of Jesus...

NASB Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

NASB Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

What did Paul teach you....

1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

NASB Col 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

NASB 2 Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Let's end with the acts of the Apostles...

NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

CEV Act 13:48 This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

Do not fear.....
1Ti 4:9 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance. For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things.

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires2309 all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself as a
ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Note: “desires2309In 1 Titus 2:4 is assigned Strong’s number 2309 θέλω / ἐθέλω thelō / ethelō Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon Definition: 1) to will, have in mind, intend

What does Scripture tell us about God's will???

NASB Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';

Was Jesus lifted up from the earth???

Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw1670 all men to Myself."
Note: “draw1670 “ in John 12:32 is assigned Strong’s number 1670
ἑλκύω / ἕλκω helkuō / helkō Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon Definition: 1) to draw, drag off.

Do you not know....
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

1Co 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. for He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Calvinism really is Garbage.... As Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Thus...the wage of sin has been paid in Full.... Jesus is not burning for eternity for your sins... If that's the wage for sin you think is needed... Your in trouble!!!

God is Love..... and has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Peace
 
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Davy

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The matter of 'free will' is very simple.

God gave all souls in His creation free will to love Him, or not. If this were not so, then Satan and those with him could never have rebelled against God in that old world, and chose to follow Satan instead. And we know per Revelation 12:3-4 that one third of the angels ("stars") followed Satan in his original rebellion against God.

The only creatures that He did not give free will to are the 'zoon', the four beasts of Revelation 4 that He created to guard His Throne in Heaven.

WHY... would God give man free will?
Those who have children, think about your own children. Do you want them to love you from their own choice in their heart, or instead would you rather control their love to you, removing their free will? Only when they love you on their own heart-felt choice does it mean real love. All else is fake.

So likewise God wants us to love Him by our own free will choice, and not by enforcing us to love Him. And that includes His angels too. This is how simple it really is.

Christianity is the ONLY Faith belief that has God as The Savior having come in the flesh as man, was without sin, and died on the cross for the remission of the sins of those who believe on Him, and by that Faith thus receive the Promise of Salvation.
 

Behold

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@Pierac said:
I agree.... Calvinism is Garbage... But scripture is clear.... You need to remove Heaven/Hell and replace it with the 1000 year coming Kingdom,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They can't be removed. @Pierac
They've both been around longer then Adam.
 

Pierac

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@Pierac said:
I agree.... Calvinism is Garbage... But scripture is clear.... You need to remove Heaven/Hell and replace it with the 1000 year coming Kingdom,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They can't be removed. @Pierac
They've both been around longer then Adam.
Yes.... Yet... they do not see....

1Co 15:45 So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Oh... and It keeps getting better for Man...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ (The last Adam) all will be made alive.

And the wages of sin is Death.... Not some Greek teachings as burning in hell forever.... That would Make GOD a LIER in Genesis
What did God tell Adam?
 

Behold

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1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ (The last Adam) all will be made alive.

Im not following what you are trying to teach?
Are you teaching universal salvation?
That Christ Rejectors who died will be in Heaven with the Born again who Believed in Jesus?
Is that what you are teaching?
 

Pierac

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Im not following what you are trying to teach?
Are you teaching universal salvation?
That Christ Rejectors who died will be in Heaven with the Born again who Believed in Jesus?
Is that what you are teaching?
That's the point Behold....

I taught nothing.... How in the Hell did you even come to the idea of universal salvation??

Study harder... My friend

Your starting to see what you can not believe... That's the fun of this Journey...

Ok... Let me add to this commet...

NASB Ecc 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

NET Ecc 3:11 God has made everything fit beautifully in its appropriate time, but he has also placed ignorance in the human heart
so that people cannot discover what God has ordained, from the beginning to the end of their lives.

CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus.

Really... eternity.... I think Not!!!! Time for your ignorance... to END!!! Study what is above...

LOL
 
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Behold

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I taught nothing.... How in the Hell did you even come to the idea of universal salvation??

Well,
Its because you posted this verse. but you didn't explain it, and that verse..... if you just read it, seems to teach that all people will be saved.

Here is your verse.... You posted.

1Co 15:22. """" For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ (The last Adam) all will be made alive."""""


So, Universalist's read that verse like this...>"everyone will be saved, all made alive, ALL go to heaven".

But that verse does not teach that.....it teaches this.......all who are "IN CHRIST">......will be = """ made alive."""

"Made Alive" is Born again.

So, to be IN CHRIST is to be born again.......as that is how you are "Made Alive". 'In Christ"., and not every one is "in Christ", which means that not ALL are "made alive".

People in Hell right now are living proof that not "all are in Christ". "not all are made alive".
 

Pierac

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Well,
Its because you posted this verse. but you didn't explain it, and that verse..... if you just read it, seems to teach that all people will be saved.

Here is your verse.... You posted.

1Co 15:22. """" For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ (The last Adam) all will be made alive."""""


So, Universalist's read that verse like this...>"everyone will be saved, all made alive, ALL go to heaven".

But that verse does not teach that.....it teaches this.......all who are "IN CHRIST">......will be = """ made alive."""

"Made Alive" is Born again.

So, to be IN CHRIST is to be born again.......as that is how you are "Made Alive". 'In Christ"., and not every one is "in Christ", which means that not ALL are "made alive".

People in Hell right now are living proof that not "all are in Christ". "not all are made alive".
Really... people in Hell... What people?

(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

(Joh 5:28-29) Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life,and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Now... John wrote this many years after Christians died...

So who is in Heaven? (Joh 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven (or hell) except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

What does Paul tell us? (2Ti 2:18) men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

So what is the fate of Sodom and Gomorrha as mentioned in Jude? Buring in Hell or Restored???? You tell me...

Eze 16:55 As for your sisters, Sodom and her daughters shall return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former state, and you and your daughters shall return to your former state. 56 Was not your sister Sodom a byword in your mouth in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered? Now you have become an object of reproach for the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and for the daughters of the Philistines, those all around who despise you. 58 You bear the penalty of your lewdness and your abominations, declares the LORD. 59 "For thus says the Lord GOD: I will deal with you as you have done, you who have despised the oath in breaking the covenant, 60 yet I will remember my covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish for you an everlasting covenant. 61 Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you take your sisters, both your elder and your younger, and I give them to you as daughters, but not on account of the covenant with you. 62 I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD, 63 that you may remember and be confounded, and never open your mouth again because of your shame, when I atone for you for all that you have done, declares the Lord GOD."

God is Love dude....

The Dude abides...
Paul
 

Behold

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Really... people in Hell... What people?

(

Everyone who is this..

Jesus said....>"You are of YOUR FATHER, THE DEVIL, and the lusts of.....Your FATHER, you will do".

Now, if you think that person is going to exit for eternity, with the Body of Christ in HEAVEN with GOD...., then you are in for a shock after you die....
Tho you do have the Free Will right to believe that DUNG, right now.........as millions of Universalist's do, and other Fools as well.


Now who is that Son of the Devil?

Its every unbeliever, who is not born again.

Its this one...

"""""whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God REMAINS on them".


= REMAINS on who? = "You are of YOUR FATHER...the Devil".

Thats a CHRIST REJECTOR< never born again.

= """"Hell is made for the DEVIL and His ANGELS"""", and the Children of the Devil, as defined by JESUS... that i just showed you.

They are not going to go to Heaven and exit with the Born Again Christians.

There are no born again in Hell.
There are no Christ Rejectors, never born again, in Heaven.

Satan is not going to Heaven.
His Angels are not going to Heaven
His SONS, are not going to Heaven.



"be not deceived".... READER

A.) =Thousand of fhese never born again "Son's of the DEVIL" went to hell this very DAY.
 

MatthewG

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Hi @Behold i was reading malachi the other day and it talks about tje Lords wrath abiding always on isreal. Did you know that? I might have read wrong too.
 

Behold

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Hi @Behold i was reading malachi the other day and it talks about tje Lords wrath abiding always on isreal. Did you know that? I might have read wrong too.

Hi MatthewG,

God was always dealing with the Jew... right until "the time of the Gentiles" began.
Its going to end and God will again resume with the Jew..
 

MatthewG

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Hi @Behold,

Thank you for addressing the concern.

I believe those who were of disobedience pertained to the Jewish people which God's wrath would fall on, to suggest it will fall upon the Gentiles, is a bit to much in my opinion.

Due to consideration of this wrath being seen with 1,000,000 million Jews dead, and their territory wrecked by the Romans in 70Ad, by use of God (in my opinion), was that wrath.

Do you believe that God's wrath is still abiding on others today?
 

Behold

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Hi @Behold,

Thank you for addressing the concern.

I believe those who were of disobedience pertained to the Jewish people which God's wrath would fall on, to suggest it will fall upon the Gentiles, is a bit to much in my opinion.

Due to consideration of this wrath being seen with 1,000,000 million Jews dead, and their territory wrecked by the Romans in 70Ad, by use of God (in my opinion), was that wrath.

Do you believe that God's wrath is still abiding on others today?

God's wrath, in the general sense, is against "sin", and in the specific sense against "not obeying the Gospel".. (not believing it)

You realize that Hitler killed 6,000,000 Jews?
Thats quite a bit more then 70AD
A lot more of them will die in the Trib-Grt Trib., as will all other ethnic "unbelievers".

Jesus comes back "In Flaming Fire taking Vengeance on all those who do not OBEY the Gospel".

To Obey the Gospel is to BELIEVE IT..
 

MatthewG

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Hi again,

So are you saying that Jesus Christ, and his death for sin (as for all the people in the world) has still not be accepted by God, then @Behold?

God using Rome to take out people that put Jesus Christ to death, is different than hitler, so that does not work as a comparison in my opinion, which is often wrong anyway.
 
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Behold

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Hi again,

So are you saying that Jesus Christ, and his death for sin (as for all the people in the world) has still not be accepted by God, then

I stated that Hitler killed more Hebrews then the Romans killed in AD 70.

How is that me saying that Christ's Cross has not been accepted by God.

What are you saying?
 

MatthewG

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Hello Behold,

Did hitler kill them over there in Jerusalem?

I believe by faith God used the Romans to punish those who were of disobedience and killed the Lord Jesus Christ, and that the Lord saved his people by coming back through the clouds in that day, which would show an acceptance of God accepting his death for sin for the whole world as accepted.

Of course it is by faith - something I believe but never seen but have hope of happening, @Behold.


I suppose numbers dont matter to me.
 
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Behold

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I believe by faith God used the Romans to punish those who were of disobedience and killed the Lord Jesus Christ,

God was judging Hebrews long before Christ showed up.

After the "time of the Gentiles end's (soon).(Rapture) = THEN God resumes with the Hebrews and unbelievers.
 

MatthewG

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That still did not answer my question, though @Behold.

Are you in belief that God wraths is abiding on people today? Do you believe its all people, or just the jewish people who put jesus christ to death?

After this ill just let it go. Thank you for your time and response as im just curious.


I dont believe Gods wrath (it was only towards Israel alone) abides today and the cup is empty.image.jpg