Free Will and Hell

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not saying it's the judges fault. I'm mostly questioning the legitimacy of the christian mainstream idea of hell. Fire and Birmstone, eternal torment and absolutely nothing one can do against it when they arrive in hell. Yes humans are faulty, but if they had to coexist for an eternity wouldn't they be able to make an arrangement? Just because God's not around doesn't mean everybody goes crazy. If hell only means no God, I refuse to believe it'll be horrible.
My prove is that many people today don't believe in this God and yet we have no data showing any difference of happiness between christians and any other religion+atheists. Assuming the other religions are fake, these people must be able to be happy without God. Because only the people that accept jesus receive the holy spirit. Why would this be different in hell?
Sincerely SelfInducedHeadache

so. Once you see God and realise what he had been trying to show you your whole life about who he is and what is needed. You think THEN he should just let you out of Hell?

Just asking how you think that is fair, since people who did respond to his message are already there, Is that fair to them or anyone else?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As I don't follow any strict dogma, I can't say correct as in true. If you meant that if it was already already answered in a serious comment, then yes. Actually multiple comments. I even made this chart showing positions;

Obvioulsy it's simplified, but it captures every position I heard.
As for me I think it's asatisfying result, beceause a saw the variety of ideas flowing around and how these were rationallized.

happy easters,
SelfInducedHeadache

that chart is way off. Not even close to reality

 

[Timtofly]

What the world would do without fire: probably nothing, because without fire, nothing is recycled.

Fire is used to completely destroy, so the process can start again. Water is destruction, but water also brings forth new life. Fire just eternally destroys.

Only God can be feared. Fire should not make any one afraid, unless they have nothing of God, that can be recycled. One eternally in fire, in God's mind, never existed. All God sees is the eternal lake of fire.

BTW, eternity is not a very long time. There is no time. The lake of fire is a singularity, that within, time goes on without stopping. So yes, all inside will go on existing forever, never ending, true infinity.

 

[Truth OT]

Does any of this make sense???
If not, why and what part of my deduction is wrong? Bible quotes much apprecheated

The entire deduction is in error IMO. First of all it must be determined using the biblical texts exactly what hell is (or more precisely what the various 'hells' mentioned in the texts are). Sheol (Hades), Gehenna, Tartarus, all have been named in scripture and all have differing meanings. Additionally, we must bring the concept of eternal under the microscope and examine if it accurately describes the nature of any of the above terms or if it more accurately describes the effects they may have.

Perhaps even more relevant to this discussion than the specifics of hell as described in the texts is the nature of man. Is man eternal? Are the wages of sin death or eternal punishing? What is a resurrection?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

First of all in this threat I argue as if the bible was true, althought I have my problem with it.
I'm very confused by myself and the bible. The crux of my headache is;
If God wanted humans to have free will and adore God out of own volution, why should humans fear hell?

Now I know this sounds wack, but bear with me. From what I've read in the bible and heard from christians God wants Humans to love him without ulterior motive. They shouldn't praise him out of fear. But at the same time most of those christians also believed that hell is ultimate punishment for abandoning God- Lake of fire and man eating bugs all inclusive-. Obviously most of the people I've spoken to feared this punishment and argued it'll be better to believe in God just in case hell exists.
-But isn't this a contradiction? One wouldn't be a true christian if they praised God out of fear. And also if God wanted us to have a free choice, woulnd't it mean he isn't allowed to make hell more deadly than it's without divine interference. The same wayone won't says it's a free choice if somebody held a gun to your head, just replace the gun with infinite torment by divine verdict.
So a more reasonable interpretation of hell would be a place without God, were Humans are about equaly evil as currently on earth, given on earth there aren't enough christians to make a difference. So if God wanted us to be truly free, humans would actualy be able to live in hell.

Of course humans would first have to deal with all of the worst people who have existed and the devil, but even evil people are rational and capable to stricke a deal between eachother, allowing an existence about as good, as we currently have. Also all biblical imagery of hell would be caused by actions of humans or Satan.
I'm by no way recommending going to hell, just stating it wouldn't as bad as most people think.
​

Does any of this make sense???
If not, why and what part of my deduction is wrong? Bible quotes much apprecheated

The plain and simple way that I can put this is that all God has ever truly said is that he and he alone is the only person who can give you eternal life. He will use a certain arrangement or arrangements to do that. In the beginning all God wanted Adam and Eve to do was love him so much that they trusted or had faith that what he said was true and be obedient. When God told Adam to not eat of the forbidden fruit because if he did he would die, all that meant is that if Adam continued to refrain from eating that forbidden fruit because of his love for the True God Jehovah, Adam would be acknowledging that The True God Jehovah is the only person who has the right to say what is good for his creation or put in another way, what is in the best interests of his creation. It also meant that only The True God Jehovah is the only person who knows what is bad for what he created, to put it in another way, only The True God Jehovah knows what is not in the best interests of his creation. God simply is telling us that he knows how he has created us or designed us and if we abuse the design then we will only end up in being totally destroying ourselves out of existence, not be tortured for eternity. Death is the opposite of life. If you're dead you have no consciousness you're not aware of anything. Eternal death means you will stay in this state of no consciousness or awareness for eternity because God has judged you to be in that state because you have consistently shown him you have no faith in him because you have no faith in the arrangement that God is using to save mankind which shows you don't truly love him. We have to put love for The True God Jehovah first in our lives which means putting faith in the arrangement that The True God Jehovah is using today to accomplish his purpose and fulfill his prophecy. That arrangement today is that The True God Jehovah has subjected everyone and everything to his Only Begotten Son Jesus. The only person not subject to Jesus is the Father and God of Jesus whose name is Jehovah. He and He alone is the Only True God, The Only Almighty God. Jehovah God has brought a Messianic Kingdom into existence which he has made his Son Jesus King of and Jehovah God through his Son Jesus has chosen others from mankind to be kings, priests and judges with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom and they will rule over the earth with Jesus for eternity.

 

[bbyrd009]

First of all in this threat I argue as if the bible was true, althought I have my problem with it.
I'm very confused by myself and the bible. The crux of my headache is;
If God wanted humans to have free will and adore God out of own volution, why should humans fear hell?

Now I know this sounds wack, but bear with me. From what I've read in the bible and heard from christians God wants Humans to love him without ulterior motive. They shouldn't praise him out of fear. But at the same time most of those christians also believed that hell is ultimate punishment for abandoning God- Lake of fire and man eating bugs all inclusive-. Obviously most of the people I've spoken to feared this punishment and argued it'll be better to believe in God just in case hell exists.
-But isn't this a contradiction? One wouldn't be a true christian if they praised God out of fear. And also if God wanted us to have a free choice, woulnd't it mean he isn't allowed to make hell more deadly than it's without divine interference. The same wayone won't says it's a free choice if somebody held a gun to your head, just replace the gun with infinite torment by divine verdict.
So a more reasonable interpretation of hell would be a place without God, were Humans are about equaly evil as currently on earth, given on earth there aren't enough christians to make a difference. So if God wanted us to be truly free, humans would actualy be able to live in hell.

Of course humans would first have to deal with all of the worst people who have existed and the devil, but even evil people are rational and capable to stricke a deal between eachother, allowing an existence about as good, as we currently have. Also all biblical imagery of hell would be caused by actions of humans or Satan.
I'm by no way recommending going to hell, just stating it wouldn't as bad as most people think.
​

Does any of this make sense???
If not, why and what part of my deduction is wrong? Bible quotes much apprecheated

nice imo, i would say you have seen through the hypocrisy; Samuel told Saul "you and your sons will be here with me," but most Christians reject or ignore this passage i guess. Unfortunately we lose the concept of a place called heaven that may only be attained after death, too, but Scripture is also plain there imo, No one has ever gone up to heaven but He Who came down from it, There is only One Immortal

so, a valid theory maybe is that our concept of "hell" came from Angle/Norse scribes who had no better analogy for Gehenna, which is after all on Earth, right? And i guess that mixed quite well with Christianity at that point, which had completely accepted Mithraism by then (or Cult of Sol Invictus)

ntmy,
mark

 

[Truth OT]

In the beginning all God wanted

Assuming there is a God, I find it to be the height of arrogance that people assert that they know what God wants.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Assuming there is a God, I find it to be the height of arrogance that people assert that they know what God wants.

I think it's a matter of truly believing that The True God Jehovah exists of course.I've never been able to be convinced that God doesn't exist. When I see all around me that things like TV and radios and houses and clocks etc which are designed by intelligent beings then assembled following that design by intelligent beings, then I read stories of research of how scientists everyday are discoving how the universe is designed right down to the smallest particle and then people want me to believe there is no designer. I just can't believe that. What other people choose to believe is their choice but no one has convinced me there is no God. Plain simple fact is God exists whether a person chooses to believe that or not. God wants us to believe and have faith in him because of our love for him but he doesn't need us to. God will fulfill his prophecies and accomplish his purposes whether a person believes him or loves him or not.

 

[Truth OT]

then I read stories of research of how scientists everyday are discoving how the universe is designed right down to the smallest particle and then people want me to believe there is no designer. I just can't believe that.

That assessment is not accurate. Science, forget scientists, but science does NOT support design at all.

Plain simple fact is God exists whether a person chooses to believe that or not.

Not a fact at all. I truly don't know whether or not god(s) exist. I am however, convinced that the god described in the Bible is not one that exists in reality.

God wants us to believe and have faith in him because of our love for him but he doesn't need us to. God will fulfill his prophecies and accomplish his purposes whether a person believes him or loves him or not.

If a god exists, its desires and will is not something I am arrogant enough to believe I can assess.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

That assessment is not accurate. Science, forget scientists, but science does NOT support design at all.


Not a fact at all. I truly don't know whether or not god(s) exist. I am however, convinced that the god described in the Bible is not one that exists in reality.


If a god exists, its desires and will is not something I am arrogant enough to believe I can assess.

Well I know what I read. If you want to believe that I didn't read what scientists are saying about the universe, then don't. If you think the atom itself doesn't have design, then don't. What I believe isn't going to change because of what you choose to believe or not believe. I also know that God will accomplish his purpose and fulfill his prophecies whether you believe in him or not. I also know that the universe does prove that God exists. I've never believed that people such as yourself would believe that. I always knew that people who don't believe in God would come up with some bougus argument why they don't believe in him.

 

[Truth OT]

I always knew......

And there lies the issue. Human arrogance has created in its mind a god in the very image of man whose very will is tied to comings, goings, and behaviors of humans. In doing so man has inadvertently deified himself and veiled that arrogance with a false humility. So man in light of this can boldly proclaim that he knows the will of God because he anthropomorphically assigned god its own traits and ideals.

 

[Justadude]

And there lies the issue. Human arrogance has created in its mind a god in the very image of man whose very will is tied to comings, goings, and behaviors of humans. In doing so man has inadvertently deified himself and veiled that arrogance with a false humility. So man in light of this can boldly proclaim that he knows the will of God because he anthropomorphically assigned god its own traits and ideals.

Very well put, and it reminds me of a fictional scenario I read a long time ago, where intelligent aliens visit earth and Christians start preaching Christianity to them. In doing so, the Christians start talking about how humans are God's special creation, created in his image, and the workings of the entire universe were forever altered once two humans ate from a forbidden tree. At that point the aliens start laughing and say something like "Um, remind us......which one of us has mastered inter-galactic travel?"

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

And there lies the issue. Human arrogance has created in its mind a god in the very image of man whose very will is tied to comings, goings, and behaviors of humans. In doing so man has inadvertently deified himself and veiled that arrogance with a false humility. So man in light of this can boldly proclaim that he knows the will of God because he anthropomorphically assigned god its own traits and ideals.

What I find interesting is, that a person who doesn't believe in God, thinks he/she hasn't defied themselves, after all, not believing in God, is a belief. Why would such a person be on a Christian forum which consists of people who believe God exists, then says they're arrogant because of their beliefs. Isn't that being arrogant because, what, they should be like them and believe like them as though they know better than anyone else. I mean if a person doesn't want to believe in God then don't, but saying or suggesting other people are arrogant because they do, that's also arrogant.

 

[amadeus]

Assuming there is a God, I find it to be the height of arrogance that people assert that they know what God wants.

You might be right if it a person who never heard from God spoke only what he determined in his own carnal mind. But... consider what is written:

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4

If a person is a "sheep" and is hearing God's voice, for him to say that he does not know what God wants would be a lie!

 

[Getitright]

First of all in this threat I argue as if the bible was true, althought I have my problem with it.
I'm very confused by myself and the bible. The crux of my headache is;
If God wanted humans to have free will and adore God out of own volution, why should humans fear hell?

Now I know this sounds wack, but bear with me. From what I've read in the bible and heard from christians God wants Humans to love him without ulterior motive. They shouldn't praise him out of fear. But at the same time most of those christians also believed that hell is ultimate punishment for abandoning God- Lake of fire and man eating bugs all inclusive-. Obviously most of the people I've spoken to feared this punishment and argued it'll be better to believe in God just in case hell exists.
-But isn't this a contradiction? One wouldn't be a true christian if they praised God out of fear. And also if God wanted us to have a free choice, woulnd't it mean he isn't allowed to make hell more deadly than it's without divine interference. The same wayone won't says it's a free choice if somebody held a gun to your head, just replace the gun with infinite torment by divine verdict.
So a more reasonable interpretation of hell would be a place without God, were Humans are about equaly evil as currently on earth, given on earth there aren't enough christians to make a difference. So if God wanted us to be truly free, humans would actualy be able to live in hell.

Of course humans would first have to deal with all of the worst people who have existed and the devil, but even evil people are rational and capable to stricke a deal between eachother, allowing an existence about as good, as we currently have. Also all biblical imagery of hell would be caused by actions of humans or Satan.
I'm by no way recommending going to hell, just stating it wouldn't as bad as most people think.
​

Does any of this make sense???
If not, why and what part of my deduction is wrong? Bible quotes much apprecheated

The concept of Hell as a place of eternal conscious torment is not what is taught in the Bible. That idea is imposed on the Bible. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death. That's what it is. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. The end of the wicked is death. The wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire and burned up. They will cease to exist. Those who choose to follow the Lord will be given eternal life.

 

[bbyrd009]

And there lies the issue. Human arrogance has created in its mind a god in the very image of man whose very will is tied to comings, goings, and behaviors of humans. In doing so man has inadvertently deified himself and veiled that arrogance with a false humility. So man in light of this can boldly proclaim that he knows the will of God because he anthropomorphically assigned god its own traits and ideals.

you can get all of that right out of the Bible fwiw
many places--Many will cry "Lord, Lord"--but summarized in Jonah, who went to the "fish ppl" (get it?) and told them he was a prophet for the Unknown God

 

[bbyrd009]

You might be right if it a person who never heard from God spoke only what he determined in his own carnal mind. But... consider what is written:

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice." John 10:3-4

If a person is a "sheep" and is hearing God's voice, for him to say that he does not know what God wants would be a lie!

hmm you think a? I mean what would be the test for that? Or at least big "if" right

imo even one "hearing Yah's Voice" still would have to make an impossible leap to "i know what Yah wants"

 

[amadeus]

hmm you think a? I mean what would be the test for that? Or at least big "if" right

imo even one "hearing Yah's Voice" still would have to make an impossible leap to "i know what Yah wants"

The only test that matters is the one within ourselves when and if we are in touch with God.

Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice and hear not strangers. To me that means sometimes maybe people who seem to sometimes be sheep, are not always sheep. Oh there are certainly some that are definitely goats and that is the pathway they have taken and unless something happens to change it between now and then they remain on the left as goats at the end of their course.

The ones running down the middle might be better described as those moving to and fro between hearing Him and hearing strangers. In this to and fro motion they are not sheep nor goats. Is there an in between? A cross between the two?

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16

Are the goats the cold ones and the sheep the hot ones?

What and where are these lukewarm ones, the ones really trying to balance on top of the fence so as not to lose what they like in the world and what they like with God?

The situation reminds me of the children of the Israel in the wilderness who needed to take their sin to a priest with the proper offering to have atonement made on their behalf. I guess that many of them did and in a couple of weeks or months later...or sometimes even in the next day or two there they were back again with another offering for the same sin repeated. How tired of that did God get after a while? [Does God gets tired? Is there no end to His mercy?]

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:" Num 14:22-23

Out of the 600,000 men who came out of Egypt, what did Joshua and Caleb do that was different?

See us today where we should be heading...

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" Eph 4:13-15

Perhaps many of those 600,000 brought their offerings very offering periodically or even regularly to the priests even as many today bring/mail/send their offerings of money and other things to a church house or a minister or pastor, but miss something quite a bit more important.

Why were Joshua and Caleb sheep while the rest were either goats or lukewarm? See what it says here about Caleb:

"But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it." Num 14:24

The difference is expressed in many ways and places in the OT as well as the NT if we can read them with understanding. Consider these words of Samuel the prophet after King Saul had messed up again:

"But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart,.." I Sam 13:14

The man sought, a man after the Lord's own heart, found by Samuel was David, was it not? David messed up as badly as Saul it would seem but the difference between David and Saul is seen in these words which David was later to write:

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:17

Saul was the goat and David was the sheep. Did not Saul start out also as a sheep with the anointing of God, but they he then tried to walk along a lukewarm pathway holding onto both sides... for a while?

Saul was moving to and fro like many or most of the 600,000 less 2 in the wilderness. Early on when he was called through Samuel, Saul heard God's voice. He was anointed by God to be king... but after swinging back and forth a while, finally, he could only hear the stranger's voice. Samuel who had been the voice of God Saul was gone... so Saul went to a witch, a "stranger" you might say, to confirm what he certainly already knew. See these words which Saul the king spoke to David after David refuse to use an opportunity to kill the king:

"And now, behold, I know well that thou shalt surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be established in thine hand." I Sam 24:20

King Saul still trying to ride the fence holding onto his throne had heard from God on this through Samuel already. But Samuel was gone and the only voice Saul could hear now was that of a "stranger".

@bbyrd009 As to your question, did not David answer it with the words I quoted above: Psalm 51:17 ?

 

[bbyrd009]

As to your question, did not David answer it with the words I quoted above: Psalm 51:17 ?

well, would that one be saying "i know what Yah wants?"
maybe, i dunno

 

[APAK]

The only test that matters is the one within ourselves when and if we are in touch with God.

Jesus says that His sheep hear His voice and hear not strangers. To me that means sometimes maybe people who seem to sometimes be sheep, are not always sheep. Oh there are certainly some that are definitely goats and that is the pathway they have taken and unless something happens to change it between now and then they remain on the left as goats at the end of their course.

The ones running down the middle might be better described as those moving to and fro between hearing Him and hearing strangers. In this to and fro motion they are not sheep nor goats. Is there an in between? A cross between the two?

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16

Are the goats the cold ones and the sheep the hot ones?

What and where are these lukewarm ones, the ones really trying to balance on top of the fence so as not to lose what they like in the world and what they like with God?

The situation reminds me of the children of the Israel in the wilderness who needed to take their sin to a priest with the proper offering to have atonement made on their behalf. I guess that many of them did and in a couple of weeks or months later...or sometimes even in the next day or two there they were back again with another offering for the same sin repeated. How tired of that did God get after a while? [Does God gets tired? Is there no end to His mercy?]

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:" Num 14:22-23

Out of the 600,000 men who came out of Egypt, what did Joshua and Caleb do that was different?

See us today where we should be heading...

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:" Eph 4:13-15

Perhaps many of those 600,000 brought their offerings very offering periodically or even regularly to the priests even as many today bring/mail/send their offerings of money and other things to a church house or a minister or pastor, but miss something quite a bit more important.

Why were Joshua and Caleb sheep while the rest were either goats or lukewarm? See what it says here about Caleb:

"But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it." Num 14:24

The difference is expressed in many ways and places in the OT as well as the NT if we can read them with understanding. Consider these words of Samuel the prophet after King Saul had messed up again:

"But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart,.." I Sam 13:14

The man sought, a man after the Lord's own heart, found by Samuel was David, was it not? David messed up as badly as Saul it would seem but the difference between David and Saul is seen in these words which David was later to write:

"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." Psalm 51:17

Saul was the goat and David was the sheep. Did not Saul start out also as a sheep with the anointing of God, but they he then tried to walk along a lukewarm pathway holding onto both sides... for a while?

Saul was moving to and fro like many or most of the 600,000 less 2 in the wilderness. Early on when he was called through Samuel, Saul heard God's voice. He was anointed by God to be king... but after swinging back and forth a while, finally, he could only hear the stranger's voice. Samuel who had been the voice of God Saul was gone... so Saul went to a witch, a "stranger" you might say, to confirm what he certainly already knew. See these words which Saul the king spoke to David after David refuse to use an opportunity to kill the king:

"And now, behold, I know well that thou shalt surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be established in thine hand." I Sam 24:20

King Saul still trying to ride the fence holding onto his throne had heard from God on this through Samuel already. But Samuel was gone and the only voice Saul could hear now was that of a "stranger".

@bbyrd009 As to your question, did not David answer it with the words I quoted above: Psalm 51:17 ?

Well said indeed..the heart condition is where it's at...Blessings...APAK