Free Will and Hell

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Giuliano

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Indeed nobody knows and nobody should preach they are absolute, so everybody can communicate their experiences and everything can be treated with the same sincerity and openness.
I don't enjoy saying this, but I think often the more uncertain some people are, the more they try to clutch onto ideas as absolute truths. They are apt to pick up a "holy book" and say to themselves, "This is all true" without any basis for it.

I could not tell you if every line in the Bible is true. I don't know. I've no way to judge that by my experience. If I did know for sure and could judge by experience, I'd have no need to read the Bible or any other holy book. What I can say is that I have seen some of the things mentioned in the Bible -- and the descriptions often match what I saw. Other parts of the Bible, I don't know about; and clearly too some parts can't be true, not if they contradict each other. This is not the place to go into the subject of forgeries and frauds however.

I find the concept of hell being caused by humans interesting and very possible inside the bible. So hell is a Danteland, because some sick people want it to be like this. One question thought; have people inside hell tried to stop the worse people? It truly interests me.
When I read that Jesus preached to spirits in prison, I asked if I could it too. I was given permission. (Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.) I did that two times -- and in two very different sections of hell. Neither worked well. No one wanted to hear what I said. Lucky for me, I was surrounded by the Light of God. I would have been attacked in both cases without it. My message of hope and love was not welcome.

I'll go into more detail about the worse case. I was in a dark gloomy place. Even the sky was dark and gloomy. There were trees of some sort that appeared dead being a pasty pale white. There was a small group people there. They had one person tied down and were torturing him. The people torturing the man weren't interested in what I said. They felt sure they had the upper hand. Why would they want to "repent" when they felt they were "winning"? I was asking them to give up what they saw as their "control". Then I got closer to the man who was tied down to talk to him. I told him he could come with me and get away if he wanted. (I knew instinctively this was true, that Jesus would get him out of there if I could get him to say he wanted to come with me.) He said he would leave with me if he got loose but only after he got revenge.

Then I realized something. These people were engaged in torturing each other. They took turns at it. If the tortured fellow could conspire with a few others there, they could execute a coup of sorts and the tormented would become the tormentor. They would do this endlessly. (It reminds me now somewhat of how politicians operate.) Somehow as time passed, the injuries to their bodies got repaired only to be savaged again. I was very sad when I turned away from him, realizing it was hopeless for me to continue trying to talk into giving up the idea of revenge.

At one point, a very big man approached me threatening me with a big fist in my face. Instinct preserved me again. I was protected by the Light and didn't flinch. He didn't touch me. He was trying to make me afraid. If I had been afraid, the Light of God would have left me. If I believed he could hurt me, then he could have.

(I could tell you other stories about how "demons" are afraid of the Light. Most demons are not what many people think they are. Buddhism is closer to the truth than the usual Christian ideas. Many of them aren't even that real. Have you heard of what Buddhists all tulpas? )

Irrefutably, selfhate, selfloathing and stubbornness are a deadly poison. On the other hand do you think God is the only path or were some people capable to reach the top e.g: buddas and the lamas?

Inspiring, truly inspiring, I'll probably steal this and write a story. No, this is another great and valuable perspective.

+The cat is definitely a total +100%
I think Jesus and Buddha are the best of friends. Buddha helped me find the right path. I started off as a Christian as a child. Then I became an atheist, then an agnostic. Then I started looking for some truth. I looked into Buddhism and did meditation. I was trying to visualize Gautama -- and was surprised when he showed up. Our conversation saddened me since he told me I was not meant to be a Buddhist. It made me sad since I felt a lot of love for him and from him. He was so kind when I asked if he would help me while I found my proper path. He said he would, and he did.

Speaking of Buddhism, I remember the first time I wanted to see what hell looked like. Could I visit it? Suddenly, I was in another place. People were standing by themselves alone -- no one was talking to anyone else. All their clothes were gray. It was dreary to be sure; but I had the idea of "fire" in my mind and wondered why I wandered into this desolate place. One man looked to be more important or maybe have more authority than the others. I went up to him and asked him about it. "I was trying to find hell and wound up here, but there's no fire. Is this hell?" He calmly told me, "Oh, you're looking for the Christian hell. This is a Buddhist one." My mistake, eh? So off I set again, this time looking specifically for a "Christian" hell with fire. Yes, I found it.

I agree with what William Blake said about Emmanuel Swedenborg. Both had many visions (both more than I have), and I like Blake was excited at first when I discovered Swedenborg's writings. Over time, I came to the same conclusion Blake about Swedenborg -- that to a very large extent he saw what he expected to see. If we expect something to be a certain way, odds are we'll be attracted to a spiritual reality where that is true. Swedenborg took his theological ideas too seriously and never saw things that would have contradicted them. Swedenborg can also relate something he saw in a vision and then go on with theological ideas that aren't related to what he saw and which I don't think are true.

By the way, Blake said he met Voltaire (in the spiritual world) -- and he considered him a saint of sorts. So do I. I believe Voltaire was born to do certain things in his life; and if he had been a devout Christian, he would have been reluctant to do them and probably not have succeeded in his mission.

I see I didn't really answer your question about helping people in hell. Let me get back to you on it since this post is getting long. There is hope for them. . . or for almost all of them anyway.
 
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Windmillcharge

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Assuming the bible is true, as I've stated at the top, here I'll argue within bible; Wouldn't the rational clockwerklike people still be cast into hell, because they won't follow God out of devotion but out of tactic, a simple calculation so to speak? They're incapable of making such a choice by emotion, they've already deconstructed theyself into bioengeneered supercomputers. The only way they could follow God wholeheartedly is if the choice wouln't make a difference, making the whole thing meaningless.

There is no need to assume the Bible is true.
Nor is there a need to assume robotic preprogrammed people.
We are rational, moral beings, just as God is rational and moral.
That means our choices have a consequence.
 

SelfInducedHeadache

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There is no need to assume the Bible is true.
Nor is there a need to assume robotic preprogrammed people.
We are rational, moral beings, just as God is rational and moral.
That means our choices have a consequence.

So you believe the biblical free choice is free choice within the parameters of God, wich are believe or devastation?(I'm assuming you subcribe to the fire and brimstone interpretation of hell, because you haven't stated anything against it yet)

Like you said no reasonable person would chose devastation and here is were I disagree with you; This wouldn't be free choice, it would be rigged by the questionaire, a rational one, who absolutely knows that the choice and it's results are constructed in such a way.

Also, I don't think God being moral adds up with him being such an absolute fanatic of such law. Unless you mean by morality the reason version of morality; "Act in a way, you want to be treated by your equals." Something that that God doesn't need to bother with because he has no equal, ergo; Gods morals aren't comparable with human morals and as such ureasonable. That would explain the absurdity of the problem above, but would also strip him of any morality in our sense. In the end it always boils down to the question of what hell is.

All in all, with this interpretation I'm currently not seeing the loving God of the bible, but a tyrant equal to the devil, tormenting people with fear and then offering a deal for salvation, only he can give.

If I misconstrued your arguement or you have information which would change my deduction, please correct me.
But if there's nothing new, that's ok too;

I wish you a merry day either way
 

Eternally Grateful

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1. Hell was made for satan and his minions, not mankind
2. God does not send people to hell, people chose hell, romans one says man knows, thus has no excuse
3. Hell is eternal death, all people will live consciously forever, those who chose to received Gods gift, will spend it with God, those who reject his gift, will not
4. Living for eternity apart from god, well that’s hell,

we can’t blame God for peoples mistakes. It’s like telling a murderer the judge does not love him if he send him to life in prison, it’s not the judges fault, it’s the sinners fault

fact is everyone deserves hell, but God so loved us he came to remove that burden from us by taking our death on the cross,

he died so that everyone would be freed, it’s not his fault if not everyone receives his love offering
 

SelfInducedHeadache

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1. Hell was made for satan and his minions, not mankind
2. God does not send people to hell, people chose hell, romans one says man knows, thus has no excuse
3. Hell is eternal death, all people will live consciously forever, those who chose to received Gods gift, will spend it with God, those who reject his gift, will not
4. Living for eternity apart from god, well that’s hell,

we can’t blame God for peoples mistakes. It’s like telling a murderer the judge does not love him if he send him to life in prison, it’s not the judges fault, it’s the sinners fault

fact is everyone deserves hell, but God so loved us he came to remove that burden from us by taking our death on the cross,

he died so that everyone would be freed, it’s not his fault if not everyone receives his love offering
I'm not saying it's the judges fault. I'm mostly questioning the legitimacy of the christian mainstream idea of hell. Fire and Birmstone, eternal torment and absolutely nothing one can do against it when they arrive in hell. Yes humans are faulty, but if they had to coexist for an eternity wouldn't they be able to make an arrangement? Just because God's not around doesn't mean everybody goes crazy. If hell only means no God, I refuse to believe it'll be horrible.
My prove is that many people today don't believe in this God and yet we have no data showing any difference of happiness between christians and any other religion+atheists. Assuming the other religions are fake, these people must be able to be happy without God. Because only the people that accept jesus receive the holy spirit. Why would this be different in hell?
Sincerely SelfInducedHeadache
 

Stranger

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I'm not saying it's the judges fault. I'm mostly questioning the legitimacy of the christian mainstream idea of hell. Fire and Birmstone, eternal torment and absolutely nothing one can do against it when they arrive in hell. Yes humans are faulty, but if they had to coexist for an eternity wouldn't they be able to make an arrangement? Just because God's not around doesn't mean everybody goes crazy. If hell only means no God, I refuse to believe it'll be horrible.
My prove is that many people today don't believe in this God and yet we have no data showing any difference of happiness between christians and any other religion+atheists. Assuming the other religions are fake, these people must be able to be happy without God. Because only the people that accept jesus receive the holy spirit. Why would this be different in hell?
Sincerely SelfInducedHeadache

The 'legitimacy' of hell comes from the Bible.

Hell doesn't mean 'no God'. Once one enters Hell, which is at this time the place of torment, Sheol or Hades, it doesn't mean he is away from God. He is where God has appointed him to be. The same will be true in a future day when all the unbelieving will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

If hell were just the idea of no God, it wouldn't be hell for the unbelieving as they don't want God. The presence of God is hell to the unbeliever.

Yes, there are many happy, and content people of other religions or who are atheist's. But that is on this side while they are alive. On this side God has created the earth and it's laws to function consistently. And He has set the world order of man to function consistently also. The atheist can make the most of these laws to his benefit on earth and reject God. He may well be happy and content for his life here. He may deceive himself that there is nothing after death.

But then that day comes. A month ago had I told everyone you need to go out and buy as much toilet paper as you can for hard times ahead, I would have been seen as silly. And when that day comes both the Christian and the atheist place has changed. You are no longer here on earth. You are at your new appointed place.

Stranger
 

Eternally Grateful

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I'm not saying it's the judges fault. I'm mostly questioning the legitimacy of the christian mainstream idea of hell. Fire and Birmstone, eternal torment and absolutely nothing one can do against it when they arrive in hell. Yes humans are faulty, but if they had to coexist for an eternity wouldn't they be able to make an arrangement? Just because God's not around doesn't mean everybody goes crazy. If hell only means no God, I refuse to believe it'll be horrible.
My prove is that many people today don't believe in this God and yet we have no data showing any difference of happiness between christians and any other religion+atheists. Assuming the other religions are fake, these people must be able to be happy without God. Because only the people that accept jesus receive the holy spirit. Why would this be different in hell?
Sincerely SelfInducedHeadache
imagine a place without God. where people are forced to take care of their own needs. with no resources. where there is no love
 

Joseph77

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First of all in this threat I argue as if the bible was true, althought I have my problem with it.
I'm very confused by myself and the bible. The crux of my headache is;
If God wanted humans to have free will and adore God out of own volution, why should humans fear hell?
Great question.

Was it answered correctly yet ?
 

SelfInducedHeadache

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Great question.

Was it answered correctly yet ?

As I don't follow any strict dogma, I can't say correct as in true. If you meant that if it was already already answered in a serious comment, then yes. Actually multiple comments. I even made this chart showing positions;
Hell-and-Free-Will.png

Obvioulsy it's simplified, but it captures every position I heard.
As for me I think it's asatisfying result, beceause a saw the variety of ideas flowing around and how these were rationallized.

happy easters,
SelfInducedHeadache
 

SelfInducedHeadache

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There's one coming, one missing, the one not in your picture. (I guess you did not hear it).

The Truth. As in the Bible.


I don't know if or when you might hear it.
Everyone posting claimed to tell the thruth of the bible, so don't I know what you mean.
If you don't mind, please elaborate.

~SelfInducedHeachache
 

Joseph77

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Everyone posting claimed to tell the thruth of the bible, so don't I know what you mean.
If you don't mind, please elaborate.

~SelfInducedHeachache
Test everything before believing it. (This requires reading the Bible)

Most people posting oppose the Bible, clearly (obviously), so that means not so many posts or ideas need to be tested - just those ideas or statements or posts that you want to test is all that is required to test, according to Scripture. For instance, when someone from a false teacher posts, nothing needs to be tested from them - it is all unreliable.

The chart you posted lacks the 'flow'? or schamatics of how the Bible describes things, so that is what is lacking.

If anyone reads the Bible, God Willing, as God Reveals in the Bible, then God will Reveal His Way - His Instructions about everything in His Word.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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First of all in this threat I argue as if the bible was true, althought I have my problem with it.
I'm very confused by myself and the bible. The crux of my headache is;
If God wanted humans to have free will and adore God out of own volution, why should humans fear hell?

Now I know this sounds wack, but bear with me. From what I've read in the bible and heard from christians God wants Humans to love him without ulterior motive. They shouldn't praise him out of fear. But at the same time most of those christians also believed that hell is ultimate punishment for abandoning God- Lake of fire and man eating bugs all inclusive-. Obviously most of the people I've spoken to feared this punishment and argued it'll be better to believe in God just in case hell exists.
-But isn't this a contradiction? One wouldn't be a true christian if they praised God out of fear. And also if God wanted us to have a free choice, woulnd't it mean he isn't allowed to make hell more deadly than it's without divine interference. The same wayone won't says it's a free choice if somebody held a gun to your head, just replace the gun with infinite torment by divine verdict.
So a more reasonable interpretation of hell would be a place without God, were Humans are about equaly evil as currently on earth, given on earth there aren't enough christians to make a difference. So if God wanted us to be truly free, humans would actualy be able to live in hell.

Of course humans would first have to deal with all of the worst people who have existed and the devil, but even evil people are rational and capable to stricke a deal between eachother, allowing an existence about as good, as we currently have. Also all biblical imagery of hell would be caused by actions of humans or Satan.
I'm by no way recommending going to hell, just stating it wouldn't as bad as most people think.
Does any of this make sense???
If not, why and what part of my deduction is wrong? Bible quotes much apprecheated:)

When God created Adam there was no Hell. So Adam had nothing to fear concerning Hell.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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This might need a fact check...does it say anywhere when hell was created?

Ask yourself a question. Was it God's desire for death to be part of his creation. Did God plan ahead when creating, that sin and death would be a part of his purpose. Was that his desire for his creation.
 

Dcopymope

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Ask yourself a question. Was it God's desire for death to be part of his creation. Did God plan ahead when creating, that sin and death would be a part of his purpose. Was that his desire for his creation.

Its not so much about what he desires, but more about what he foreknew. Does God know the future or not?
 

Heart2Soul

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Ask yourself a question. Was it God's desire for death to be part of his creation. Did God plan ahead when creating, that sin and death would be a part of his purpose. Was that his desire for his creation.
I know what God's plan is all about ....here is what I am asking....all things were created...and then on the 7th day He rested.
But here is the answer I was looking for....
Fourth, God created hell for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41
states, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Two points: first, there was no point in creating this place of punishment before the devil and his angels rebelled; and, second, it must have been created before the fall of Adam or else it would have been created for him and his descendants too.

So I agree that God did not prepare hell as a place intended for mankind but He had already prepared it for the devil and his angels.

So when Jesus descended into hell and set the captives free this also implies hell was in existence already.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Its not so much about what he desires, but more about what he foreknew. Does God know the future or not?

Can God look into the future, yes. Is your definition of the word foreknew the accurate definition, not necessarily. You see some people, I don't know if it includes you, thinks that God looks at every second of the future consistently, otherwise he wouldn't be all-knowing. To me this is an arbitrary view of God being all-knowing. I certainly believe God can look at every second of the future consistently, I just don't think he does. Also that view of God consistently looking at every second of the future before creating would be stating that all the evil that we have seen since Adam sinned, was first in the mind of God before he created anything and he set all that evil in motion when he began creating. The scriptures show us that all such evil comes from demonic sources. So do I believe that God looked into every second of the future before he began creating and saw all this evil was going to happen and then he put all that evil in motion when he started creating, no I don't. I don't believe God ability to look into every second of the future is what makes God all knowing. God can be selective with his ability of looking into the future, meaning he can choose to not look into the future before creating and still be all knowing. After all God doesnt have to use every bit of his power consistently in order to be all powerful. If he did creation wouldn't be in existence. God destroyed a world in Noah's day. God didn't use every bit of his power when he did that. That means that God can be selective on how much power he uses, choosing to selectively use not every bit of his power and yet he is still all powerful. God can choose to selectively use his ability to look into the future also and still be all knowing. So I don't think God looked into every second of the future before creating Adam.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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I know what God's plan is all about ....here is what I am asking....all things were created...and then on the 7th day He rested.
But here is the answer I was looking for....
Fourth, God created hell for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41
states, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." Two points: first, there was no point in creating this place of punishment before the devil and his angels rebelled; and, second, it must have been created before the fall of Adam or else it would have been created for him and his descendants too.

So I agree that God did not prepare hell as a place intended for mankind but He had already prepared it for the devil and his angels.

So when Jesus descended into hell and set the captives free this also implies hell was in existence already.

The scripture Matthew 25:41 says everlasting fire. It doesn't use the word Sheol or Hades or Hell in this scripture. So since it says everlasting fire this must be the lake of fire where the scriptures say, "Sheol/Hades/Hell" is thrown into the lake of fire as well as death and Satan and his demons. Hell/Sheol/Hades wasn't for Satan and his demons. I agree there was no point in creating the lake of fire before Satan and his Angels rebelled. The only evidence I found in the scriptures of when Satan rebelled is at the garden of Eden. If you have found in scripture where he rebelled before this time show me please. I can understand that the lake of fire and Sheol/Hades/Hell being brought into existence at this time but not before the rebellion at the garden of Eden.
 
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